UKC Forums - Adviser vs. rule book

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Adviser vs. rule book (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928510883)

Posted by yadkintar on 10-23-2018 07:18 PM:

I am only asking for two no leash lock and tree countdown. I can deal with the rest you can deal deal with Jen lol.

Tar

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 10-23-2018 07:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Yes sir!
Now last but not least does anyone have the answer yet as to 4(e) and it being in the rules? Rule 7. TIME OUTS no longer containing moving to new hunt ground because you want to. And all reasons to call time out under Rule 7 refered to Rule 5(g) deleted strike points what is the purpose of rule 4(e) minusing strike points for calling dogs off trail.

So my husband who knows the answer to most doesn't know why it is still there but at one time was frequently used to change hunting spots. But that rule is no longer on the card.
Allen has yet to give me an answer, maybe he will come up with something.
Many are still using it like it was for a long time. So maybe this calling dogs in off trail to go to new hunting ground needs added back to the Time Out section of the rules again with a reference to 4(e) to take minus unlike the emergency type situations from Time Outs that reference Rule 5(g) of deleted points.

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 10-23-2018 07:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Hey ,hey y'all red dog guys settle down ! Believe it or not there are dogs that can run a coon fast enough to make you think it's a deer.

It's called a treeing walker you know the ones that are winning all the major hunts lol.

Tar

Quote of the day!
Tar just when Richard gets relaxed you have to go stir him up again. No wonder he needs a furnished weeniebago complete with snacks and a tea!

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 10-23-2018 07:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
The majority of judging a nite hunt requires using your ears and good judgement. Can all agree on that one?

Yes to take strike and tree calls. But you have no idea what it is running or what has been treed until it is seen 😉.

Posted by Clif Owen on 10-23-2018 07:44 PM:

I was "victimized" in a RQE once. First turnout, the dogs all ran about 75 yards and blew up on a tree. There was some commotion going on and we headed in. My dog did a bit of face barking...yes, I admit that. He was scratched for attempting to fight. Well, I really couldn't argue the point although he hadn't missed a bark while the scuffle was happening. The judge started telling me how to get back to the clubhouse. I told him he wasn't getting rid of me that easy. I was going to spectate the rest of the time. (One of the handlers had ridden with me) About an hour into the cast; there was a fight...not growling or face barking..those dudes were rolling!! Very obvious which 2 dogs were involved but weren't seen, therefore not scratched. Only bad part was I really thought the bad dog was the dog that won the cast. Turns out, it was a female that was the problem. Just proves that if you get one that is mean; she is really bad news. The Sam dog evidently was forced to defend himself and not 1 but 2 dogs gained bad reputations.

For the record, my dog didn't ever start any fights but he didn't run if another dog did. I just didn't know that at the time.

Posted by yadkintar on 10-23-2018 07:55 PM:

Back in the day time outs were used for more than moving spots !!

Might be why we didn't have questions brought back.

Best time to correct a dog is right when it happens.

But those days are gone dagumit

Tar

Posted by Dave Richards on 10-23-2018 08:02 PM:

Tar

No more brownies for you, until you get that skunk smell off. Lol. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Posted by Toad Hill on 10-23-2018 08:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Haha.....

How about we flip roles and you tell me how you would rule on my dog that you are, without conviction, fully convinced is running fast game out of the country but then eventually falls off and trees a coon. That can and does happen, right or wrong?

Absolutely !!!! All the time !!!!
But there is no way im gonna scratch you cause there is NO WAY i can prove it AND if i did scratch you you'd just question it and make me out like the bad guy at the clubhouse crying for getting beat and just trying to eliminate u. It wouldnt be worth it to me.
We can twist it however u want but thats the way its played .... and again we didnt fall out of a tree and bump our heads.

Posted by yadkintar on 10-23-2018 08:15 PM:

Dave you think maybe a lot of the common sense rules come from we didn't have as many hunts as today and we studied our dogs and hunted hard for months before we went to hunts. These younger ones are in hunts 4 nights a week they are more focused on competing with the rules than competing and knowing their dog . I mean in the summer give me a babbling tree happy dog and I can do my fair share of $$$ winning locally and maybe a big one or two.

Tar

Posted by Toad Hill on 10-23-2018 08:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Toadhill, we can debate and agree or not agree on various topics. When I say that, I hope you're not taking it to be offensive or criticizing your opinion, as that's not the intent at all. I love a good rule discussion.

There's a rule change year coming up next year. If this is one you'd like to see the criteria change when it comes to scratching dogs for running fast game or fighting, then propose a good change.

Wouldn't it be nice if the rules were so perfect that everyone agreed with every one of them and no one would have any reason to debate them?

Yes we can debate .... No offense taken at all . I dont know the answer alot of times thats why i ask it ....i dont ask just be facetious .

Yes it would but we are human, using one animal to chase a wild animal - ANYTHING can happen !

Posted by Allen / UKC on 10-23-2018 08:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
But you have no idea what it is running or what has been treed until it is seen 😉.

Says who? I'll always have an idea what they are running or what might or might not be in the tree before it is seen. The options aren't that many. Might not always be right, but you can't make me not have any idea!

Where's that OSU graduate? This is getting out of hand. lol.

Posted by yadkintar on 10-23-2018 08:43 PM:

Not so much on short game but believe it or not I can tell on long game by the way the tracks laid.

Tar

Posted by Toad Hill on 10-23-2018 08:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
There are many very good honest judges in this sport but there are also to many unscrupulous judges and cast members to have a rule like this. Also, as Toad Hill mentioned the knowing of how a dog runs a track when they have never hunted with a dog and are now judging on what they "think" a dog is doing. Example, there is a dog in the cast that can flat out fly on the ground, he must be running a deer no other dog in the cast is moving like that he is scratched a short time later the dog trees with a coon. Even if this judge honestly thought the dog was running a deer it wasn't or what if you drew the cast of unscrupulous handlers and your dog was beating the pants off them it's to tempting of a way to eliminate competition. Put it on the flip side and have an exceptional slow track dog who beats and bangs around on a track it could be said he is cold trailing a coyote and it could be scratched.
You mention that judges judge what they cannot see throughout the rest of the cast. Judges take strike and tree calls based on hearing a dog bark when the dog is moving and tree calls when it is stationary. Neither are difficult or require any interpretation by the judge it is just moving or not. And also not scratchable.
This decision to allow a non-hunting judge or judge and cast members whether honest or not the the ability to scratch their competition is a bad move. It should be policy to allow all dogs to compete for the entire hunt unless their is zero doubt that a dog or handler needs scratched leaving decisions up to things you cannot see nor accurately judge is leaves to much leeway for error of judgement or the bad apples to take advantage of a rule.

AMEN !!!!!!!!!

Posted by Dave Richards on 10-23-2018 08:55 PM:

Tar

The more I think about it, the more I have to agree with you, regarding the way we prepared for hunts back in the day. I pleasure hunted the same dogs that I competition hunted and did not put up with any foolish behavior from my dogs. Shorter hunts, less competition today, doesn't take as much preparing, good or bad, it's just the way it is. Personally, I just can't take winning with a leaves on type of dog, mine better win with the leaves off. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 10-23-2018 09:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Not so much on short game but believe it or not I can tell on long game by the way the tracks laid.

Tar

But are you willing to let someone else scratch your dog off mere speculation? The object should be to let dogs compete not to eliminate competition of speculation, there is way to much room for abuse without having to see it. After all we are talking about scratching dogs from a hunt not minusing them for leaving a tree.

And Clif Owen your dog should not have been scratched. Notice the 2nd part of the definition of Fighting or Attempting to fight includes interference, it does not say or it says and in reference to interfere.. Did your dog interfere with the other dogs ability to tree? Did any dogs take a minus from your dog interfering with them? This also brings up the reason that a dog fighting in the dog box isn't scratched. No dogs were interfered with during this fight or attempt to do so. Both criteria need to be met. Something a judge cannot do from afar either.

Posted by micooner on 10-23-2018 09:16 PM:

Here's a novel idea for ukc. Put the adviser on line in a pdf format with a search option capability. Run into a situation you type a couple words and presto up comes a couple of been there done that and here's how we ruled. Problem solved.

Posted by Toad Hill on 10-23-2018 09:20 PM:

Allen ,

In the winter time here a BIG hill country boar will run like a Cheetah and take you on an Adventure .( I actually had this type of race Fri night.) I highly advise you to leave your TT15 at home if it parallels your logic of scratching a dog cause if you ever come down to hunt you may just ruin that dog of yours

BTW , you never did answer my question either.

Posted by yadkintar on 10-23-2018 09:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
But are you willing to let someone else scratch your dog off mere speculation? The object should be to let dogs compete not to eliminate competition of speculation, there is way to much room for abuse without having to see it. After all we are talking about scratching dogs from a hunt not minusing them for leaving a tree.

And Clif Owen your dog should not have been scratched. Notice the 2nd part of the definition of Fighting or Attempting to fight includes interference, it does not say or it says and in reference to interfere.. Did your dog interfere with the other dogs ability to tree? Did any dogs take a minus from your dog interfering with them? This also brings up the reason that a dog fighting in the dog box isn't scratched. No dogs were interfered with during this fight or attempt to do so. Both criteria need to be met. Something a judge cannot do from afar either.

Heck no !! Long as they are struck and bark enough not to get minused its up to them to show me a coon on the end. Let them run all night I don't care hopefully mine will be treeing coons while they are doing it lol.

Tar

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 10-23-2018 09:36 PM:

It has always been my understanding that interference is only required to meet the criteria for "attempting to fight". Fighting is fighting no interference required.

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 10-23-2018 09:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
It has always been my understanding that interference is only required to meet the criteria for "attempting to fight". Fighting is fighting no interference required.

When they rolling on the ground that is being interfered with the ability to tree is gone. If the aggressor is know it is scratched if they are both the aggressor or it is not know upon arrival they both are. This still cannot be judged from afar properly and criteria for heading into the tree is already on the books no need for rash judgement without seeing it and making calls from a distance that could be hundreds of yards away.

Posted by Toad Hill on 10-23-2018 11:07 PM:

Alan I have another one for you ,
4 dog cast all dogs are struck in my dog comes back you minus him strike points but he has the strong smell of skunk on him are you scratching me?

Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-23-2018 11:40 PM:

An honest handler would just snap his dog and head to the truck. Why would the judge have to scratch you? Rule says dogs are scratched for molesting or trailing off game.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-23-2018 11:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Heck no !! Long as they are struck and bark enough not to get minused its up to them to show me a coon on the end. Let them run all night I don't care hopefully mine will be treeing coons while they are doing it lol.

Tar

The rule says that if a dog in a Nt Ch cast runs off game they are scratched. If your dog runs a deer shouldn't you tell the judge to scratch him? Is it fair to just hope that he quits it and drops off on a deer.

Posted by yadkintar on 10-23-2018 11:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
The rule says that if a dog in a Nt Ch cast runs off game they are scratched. If your dog runs a deer shouldn't you tell the judge to scratch him? Is it fair to just hope that he quits it and drops off on a deer.

You want to know to much lol. My dogs are strait got a coon in every tree too !

Tarbaby

Posted by Dave Richards on 10-24-2018 12:09 AM:

Richard Lambert

Not all handlers have the HONOR to minus/scratch their own dog in those cases. They are hoping for a free pass. If everyone was honest and always done the HONORABLE and correct thing, we wouldn't need as many RULES or laws. Unfortunately, it's just not the way things are, and all the rules/laws won't change a thing ! It's like venomous snakes, we have them around, we just don't always know where they are, so we have to watch carefully. No HONOR among crooks/cheats, to them it's not cheating if they don't get caught. Lol. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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