UKC Forums - How would you score?

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Posted by Donnie Stevens on 07-12-2018 04:53 PM:

Re: Re: Babbling???

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
If they are struck in right off they better not be drifting out to far without proving that initial track or they will be minused by just about any knowledgeable judge.

Im not feeling that logic

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Posted by ov_blues on 07-12-2018 05:08 PM:

Did either of the other two cast members ask for a vote? If this was a three dog cast and you minused the two other dogs as the judge I am surprised they didn't overrule your judgement call. If your call would have cost me a cast win I would have taken it all the way through the appeals process because the only reason that you have stated that you minused the dogs was because they didn't carry a track out of the area. That is not a UKC rule and there is no way that you could have determined that there wasn't a track evident 50 yards in the woods that two dogs barked on twice and then shut up and went on. Doesn't even matter whether they quit that track and went to your dog or if they drifted it out. The only way to minus those dogs was if you determined that there was no track evident where they barked at 50 yards into the woods which is impossible.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-12-2018 05:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
Im not feeling that logic

Damon you don't need to feel any logic. Strike your dog right off and have it not open for a good ways and tell us all how you fair, regardless of the kennel club. I judge with honesty and go by the rules. Not how I think something should be done. I don't agree with many of the rules in place but when I sign up I agree to abide by them. If I strike my dog right off and it shows no track I will minus my dog everytime same as I will do yours.

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
Did either of the other two cast members ask for a vote? If this was a three dog cast and you minused the two other dogs as the judge I am surprised they didn't overrule your judgement call. If your call would have cost me a cast win I would have taken it all the way through the appeals process because the only reason that you have stated that you minused the dogs was because they didn't carry a track out of the area. That is not a UKC rule and there is no way that you could have determined that there wasn't a track evident 50 yards in the woods that two dogs barked on twice and then shut up and went on. Doesn't even matter whether they quit that track and went to your dog or if they drifted it out. The only way to minus those dogs was if you determined that there was no track evident where they barked at 50 yards into the woods which is impossible.

Here we go again John. I don't need to "prove" anything. That's what the dogs are supposed to be doing and that's why UKC requires a dog to be a open trailer. If dogs open right up and then shut it off it is black and white there wasn't a track evident. Don't be upset when your hound or my hound opened without purpose and it gets minused. When you strike right off the leash that is a risk you are taking hoping that a track is evident. Normally in any type of decent hunting it will never catch a dog because tracks are abundant. But sometimes it does.

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Posted by joey on 07-12-2018 05:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I guess that I am not a very knowledgeable judge. Babbling to me is "loose barking". One or 2 barks when a dog smells something is not babbling. The rule doesn't say anything about "carrying a track out" or how many times they have to bark on a track or how much distance they can cover between barks. It also doesn't say that they can't open on a track, quit that track and go deeper and start another track.
Handlers/judges with 4th strike dogs are making all of that up to minus a dog that opens as soon as it smells something.

Richard, what they say is it is at the discretion of the judge. If the judge wants to use any of that stuff you listed as his criteria to determine a dog is babbling, then he can do that. If the cast doesn't agree they can out vote him. It's really that simple.

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Posted by Donnie Stevens on 07-12-2018 05:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
If the cast doesn't agree they can out vote him. It's really that simple.

Right. And they did. Problem solved.

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Posted by pamjohnson on 07-12-2018 05:40 PM:

TREVOR THE RULES DON'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT TAKING THE TRACK ON . IT ALSO DOESN'T MATTER ABOUT BEFORE OR AFTER THE MINUTE. ABIDE BY THE RULES. quit making new rules.

Posted by joey on 07-12-2018 05:48 PM:

Pam, he didn't make up rules, they are left open for him to decide how he wants to interpret if a dog is babbling. If he says they have to carry a track out then that's what they have to do. Like I said, if they disagree then vote on it. Its the same problem there is with any other rule that is left up to the judges discretion. He was asked to judge the cast and his judgement was they were babbling.

Posted by ov_blues on 07-12-2018 05:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
[B
Here we go again John. I don't need to "prove" anything. That's what the dogs are supposed to be doing and that's why UKC requires a dog to be a open trailer. If dogs open right up and then shut it off it is black and white there wasn't a track evident. Don't be upset when your hound or my hound opened without purpose and it gets minused. When you strike right off the leash that is a risk you are taking hoping that a track is evident. Normally in any type of decent hunting it will never catch a dog because tracks are abundant. But sometimes it does. [/B]

You are right, you don't have to "prove" anything, you have to make a judgement call. But, you have to make a judgement call that is supported by the rules. You are mingling the minute rule in with your judgement on whether a dog is babbling or not. Open trailing is subjective to how much a dog barks on the track. Opening twice and then going 200 yards before barking again is still an open trailing dog in most peoples eyes as they aren't silent, they are drifting a track. Anytime a dog is struck in and it is determined (judged) that they are babbling then they are minused (first minute or otherwise). You have stated that if the dogs opened exactly the same way but after the minute that you wouldn't have minused them so how could you say they were babbling in one situation and not babbling if it was after the minute? You have to forget about the time and judge babbling completely independent of the minute rule. All the minute rule is is a grace period where a handler doesn't have to strike his dog and get minused if his dog is babbling.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-12-2018 06:45 PM:

The fact remains that we all have differing opinions when it comes to babbling. The only fair way in my eyes is to judge it the same way everytime. UKC doesn't word it as "carrying" the track out. They word it "judges discretion".

How do I judge your dog and my dog the same way and at the same time follow the rule? I'll tell you how. It's by telling all cast members that If you strike right off a dog must show a track. And the only way it can do that in my judgement is by barking and carrying out the track. Majority of babbling happens on the casy and anyone that's hunted 5 hunts can figure that out.

Any of you guys ever lined dogs up to cast them. 1 of them stops to pee or 1 gets to far behind and barks with it's head up chasing the others? I guess in all your guys eyes this dog must just have a hell of a nose and the other 3 need to learn to strike off scent air

Heck there was probably a coon 500 yards away sitting up and that dog got the air scent 35 seconds after being turned loose and couldn't pin point it for a few minutes and 400 yards later. I have beat this to death and at this point it's amusing to me. I'm out

Posted by T Felderman on 07-12-2018 06:52 PM:

If I'm the MOH and was basing my decision solely on the information I've read. I would minus.

I say this because if TWO dogs have loose enough mouths to open at 38 seconds, one of the two would for surely open again within 2 minutes and going a couple hundred yards if a track was there? jmho

Posted by RJ Burks on 07-12-2018 07:02 PM:

May as well do away with the babbling rule. I've been on cast with dogs that got first strike every drop, they didn't bark in the box or on the lead but as soon as the lead came off within 50 yards they was struck and either barked enough for the 8 not to get them or another dog got struck in....never seen one minused for babbling

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Posted by pamjohnson on 07-13-2018 01:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
Pam, he didn't make up rules, they are left open for him to decide how he wants to interpret if a dog is babbling. If he says they have to carry a track out then that's what they have to do. Like I said, if they disagree then vote on it. Its the same problem there is with any other rule that is left up to the judges discretion. He was asked to judge the cast and his judgement was they were babbling.

carrying a track out has never been or will be a ukc rule. so that is not up for the judges discretion. even the mention of that means your reaching to bend the rules to your favor.

Posted by pamjohnson on 07-13-2018 02:19 PM:

if a dog walks over to a hole in the ground barks 3 times and runs off hunting would he get minus or does he not get 8 minutes to strike a track? does he have to carry that track out or can he shut his mouth and open up hundreds of yards away? i think the rules are clear. to many people think they have a better nose than a dog. also think they know what someone else dog is doing when they just don't know. after all does someone who hunts with your dog a time or two really know your dog better than you? so even though your the judge it doesn't mean that you know what another mans dog is like. also the dog doesn't have to hunt, track, or open like your dog. it's not your dog!

Posted by joey on 07-13-2018 06:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
carrying a track out has never been or will be a ukc rule. so that is not up for the judges discretion. even the mention of that means your reaching to bend the rules to your favor.

Nope, I'm not reaching or bending rules. Ukc gives the judge the option of deciding when a dog is babbling and when it is not. If that judge wants to say they need to carry a track out then he can do that. The rules do not tell the judge how to determine if a track is evident.

I can't understand all these people saying you don't know my dog. Of course the judge doesn't know your dog. He is asked to give his judgment and that's what he is doing. If you don't want the opinion of what your dog is doing by someone else this isn't the sport to be in.

Posted by yadkintar on 07-13-2018 06:44 PM:

Well in this senerio if you minused them and they out voted you and you took it back to the moh you would get your feelers hurt jmo.

Tar

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-13-2018 07:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
carrying a track out has never been or will be a ukc rule. so that is not up for the judges discretion. even the mention of that means your reaching to bend the rules to your favor.

I have one very simple question for you. How do you know when a dog is running a track? You say a dog can be struck right off then disappear and it has 8 miutes to find a track? How on earth with that mind set would you ever enforce the babbling rule?

I guess for the life of me I can't understand how anyone has a problem with minusing a dog that was struck right off then doesn't prove it has a track. Your argument is how can I prove there isn't a track? And my argument is that's what the dog is supposed to do.

Want to take a bet on how it will be ruled back at the club?

Posted by yadkintar on 07-13-2018 07:12 PM:

Who was winning the cast when you tried to minus them ?

Tar

Posted by Rip on 07-14-2018 02:41 AM:

Joey is correct. It is 100% the judges call period. If it the judges opinion they are babbling he can minus them at any time. In the minute out of the minute in the last minute of the hunt. Doesn't matter.

If the cast doesn't like it they can vote on it.

Babbling is one of those things you have to be there to judge.

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Posted by pamjohnson on 07-14-2018 03:09 AM:

How does anyone know a dog strikes a track ? That is an easy one it has to bark. Why ask? The question should be why are you wanting to minus a dog that has opened but the 8 minutes didn't get him? Why?

Posted by pamjohnson on 07-14-2018 03:18 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
Nope, I'm not reaching or bending rules. Ukc gives the judge the option of deciding when a dog is babbling and when it is not. If that judge wants to say they need to carry a track out then he can do that. The rules do not tell the judge how to determine if a track is evident.

I can't understand all these people saying you don't know my dog. Of course the judge doesn't know your dog. He is asked to give his judgment and that's what he is doing. If you don't want the opinion of what your dog is doing by someone else this isn't the sport to be in.

the judge can pass judgement but there would be no rule to back up carrying a track out. Therefore a moh shouldn't back up a judge on just his opinion of how he likes a dog to track (open). That would be like saying if your dog doesn't tree with 2 feet on the tree it's not satisfactory to the judge.

Posted by Rip on 07-14-2018 03:35 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
the judge can pass judgement but there would be no rule to back up carrying a track out. Therefore a moh shouldn't back up a judge on just his opinion of how he likes a dog to track (open). That would be like saying if your dog doesn't tree with 2 feet on the tree it's not satisfactory to the judge.

The rules don't say anything about how to judge babbling. It just says a dog opening where by the judgement of the judge no track is evident.

If I don't think the dog is opening on track it's minused plain and simple. It doesn't matter why I don't think there is a track, just that I don't think there is a track and I feel the dog is babbling.

The judge can use any criteria he or she wants.

Next step is the cast vote and if they still don't like the outcome it can go to the MOH but it will be upheld most likely if the cast votes the dog was babbling.

The judge doesn't have to prove anything. The DOG must prove to the judge to the judges satisfaction that there is a track there.

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Posted by yadkintar on 07-14-2018 03:40 AM:

You think them boys are vote to minus their own dogs for babbling for making two barks at 50 yards then opening again at 200 yrds and the moh over turn their vote 2 against 1 ?

Just asking

Tar

Posted by Rip on 07-14-2018 03:46 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
You think them boys are vote to minus their own dogs for babbling for making two barks at 50 yards then opening again at 200 yrds and the moh over turn their vote 2 against 1 ?

Just asking

Tar

In this instance he said they out voted him.

I have seen people honest enough to vote to minus their own dog on a call like that.

I for one have had babbling calls I made stand up to the vote.

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Posted by yadkintar on 07-14-2018 01:20 PM:

And it took 3 pages to figure that out I had it at the opening post.

Tar

Posted by Doug Terrell on 07-14-2018 03:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Who was winning the cast when you tried to minus them ?

Tar

I asked almost the same thing couple pages back tar.
I was wondering what the scores of each dog was.
And i was just wondering 🤔

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