UKC Forums - Heard it But Didn't See It -Dog Fight

Pages (4): « 1 2 [3] 4 »
Show all 96 posts from this thread on one page

UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Heard it But Didn't See It -Dog Fight (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928505751)

Posted by tony.beals on 06-26-2018 12:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ptmike
Don't be a cry baby scratching dogs for adjusting a little bit on the tree. I would never scratch a dog unless it pure mean. Most of the Time I give the handler the chance to withdraw

Last time I looked handler can not withdraw to keep from being scratched, that is just letting a dog move on to be some one else's problem.

__________________
Tony Beals
Perrinton, Mi
(989) 763-4725
MSG, US ARMY RETIRED
President of Michigan State United Coon Hunters Association

Posted by sox12 on 06-26-2018 03:34 AM:

lets just put a little to what if its the judges dog that attacked another dog and the judge said it was the other dog attacked his on a 3 dog cast the third handler didn't see anything is the judge the full authority on the scratching of dogs or are the other handlers.

__________________
George Steffes
Ph 419-212-2538
NT CH PR Southern Soggy Bottom Tilly { Gr ChGrNtCh Pr Ragged Ridge Ripsaw X Gr NT Ch Ragged Ridge Toadie }
CH Nt. Ch.PR Wandering Red & RR Bucksaw (GRCHGRNTCH Raged Ridge Rip X Grand Nite Raged Ridge Toadie )
GRNTCH.GRCh.PR Steffes' Whizz Bang[GRNTCH Big Walnut BooneXGRNTCH Raged Ridge Toadie]
GRCH.Wandering Red Pepper
GRCH.Wandering Red Honeys Sweety Pie

RIP
GR.NT.CH.GR.CH.PR Steffes wandering Red Tinkerbell {GRCHGRNTCH Raged Ridge RipsawXGRNTCH Ragged Ridge Toadie]

Posted by sox12 on 06-26-2018 03:37 AM:

only 2 dogs on the tree don't know the agresser the answer should be 4

Posted by Chuck Allen on 06-26-2018 03:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
LOL that will work. I've also seen a dog accused of being mean that didn't have a mean hair on it, but they needed some kind of a excuse for why they couldn't beat the dog! Its dosen't take but a couple of trips and everyone knows what dog is really mean and they are normally accompanied by a mean handler.

I always heard a whole lot about mean Plotts until I lived in NC and hunted with a whole bunch of them , I have never hunted with or seen a mean Plott but there are probably some out there like in all breeds. from the Plotts I hunted with they just did not tolerate rude behavior. JMHO

__________________
The more laws a nation has the more corrupt the nation.

When the law of the land becomes unjust outlaws will rise to take their place in history.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-26-2018 02:27 PM:

One man's "won't tolerate rude behavior" can be another man's mean. Just as some hunters think that a little scuffling or "adjusting for position" is natural while others think they should be scratched. In my opinion "adjusting for position" is just one dog trying to bully another dog off of a tree without actually fighting. But when the other dog won't take it then you have a fight. In this instance, who is the aggressor? Is it the bully or the dog who wouldn't take being pushed around and jumped on him?

George, if the cast can't agree on who the aggressor is, then they are both scratched. This is a ploy that some handlers use. No one wants to scratch their own dog when it is not the aggressor so neither dog gets scratched. A lot of handlers will say, "if you are going to scratch my dog, then you have to scratch yours also". Usually the only solution is to bite the bullet and scratch both dogs.

Posted by joey on 06-26-2018 05:10 PM:

We all know if you walk up and 2 dogs are fighting they get scratched. The only thing that complicates the question that was asked is it left out a major factor. The question didn't give all the info. If its a 2 dog cast and you hear the fight then they are gone. If its a 3 dog cast and you here a fight, you cant scratch them. You don't know if 2 were fighting or all three. That's the reason you have to know where the rest of the dogs in the cast are before you can scratch dogs for a fight that you hear and don't see.

__________________
Michael Rosamond
Sunspot Lights
936-827-6309
http://www.sunspotlights.com/
When brightness matters!!

Home Of:
PKC Ch, Grch Grnch 2008 Tx state champion They call me Crazy Betty

PKC SCh CH Grnch They call me Howler too

Posted by wbond on 06-26-2018 06:10 PM:

What if there are only 2 dogs left in the cast and there treed and a fight breaks out at the tree but one dog keeps treeing

__________________
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. ~~ Thomas Jefferson

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have"

Thomas Jefferson

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
Thomas Jefferson

Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-26-2018 06:33 PM:

Some dogs are so mean they will fight with themselves.

Posted by sleepy head on 06-26-2018 07:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Some dogs are so mean they will fight with themselves.

Lol

Posted by joey on 06-26-2018 07:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by wbond
What if there are only 2 dogs left in the cast and there treed and a fight breaks out at the tree but one dog keeps treeing

Doesnt matter if a fight breaks out and only 2 dogs are in the cast they are scratched. As far as we know a house dog came in and jumped one of them, but UKC decided that because we judge a cast by what we hear then we can scratch them. I'm not sure I agree with it but its how it is.

Posted by pamjohnson on 06-27-2018 01:40 AM:

i don't like grouchy dogs but i just can't resist sharing this story. i was going to the local hunts a few years ago and i had heard about 2 dogs that drew out together that didn't normally fight but when they drew out together these 2 dogs just couldn't get along. sure enough i drew out with them 1 night on a 4 dog cast. it wasn't long and all 4 dogs stuck in on the same track and the 2 dogs that didn't get along together started treeing and was declared tree about 150 yards away my dog and the other dog in the cast keep tracking on down the hollow. as we all sat there listening to the dogs, 4 handlers and 2 spectators we could hear them 2 dogs at that tree just growling and fighting up a storm. not 1 peep was made from any of us, you could have heard a pin drop for most of the 5 minutes. after the 5 was up we walked to that tree like no one heard a thing and shined that slick tree with no leaves on it that those 2 dogs fought over. wow i never seen or heard anything like it.

Posted by wbond on 06-27-2018 02:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Some dogs are so mean they will fight with themselves.

It was a 45 pound male coyote they were locked up in a brawl but anyway the yote got a dirt nap I have seen em come in to one dog treed before that was a first for 2 dogs at a tree

Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-27-2018 03:31 PM:

I have a friend that had a walker female that would sound like she was fighting when she treed by herself. Another dog had to sure have a lot of nerve to come in and tree with her. She wouldn't grab them but she would sure scare the hell out of them.

Posted by Chuck Allen on 06-27-2018 08:48 PM:

Lets say we did start scratching entire casts for fighting when the aggressor is unknown like we are supposed to do. Do you think anything bad would happen? I don't

__________________
The more laws a nation has the more corrupt the nation.

When the law of the land becomes unjust outlaws will rise to take their place in history.

Posted by Chuck Allen on 06-27-2018 08:48 PM:

Lets say we did start scratching entire casts for fighting when the aggressor is unknown like we are supposed to do. Do you think anything bad would happen? I don't

__________________
The more laws a nation has the more corrupt the nation.

When the law of the land becomes unjust outlaws will rise to take their place in history.

Posted by georgef072007 on 06-27-2018 09:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Some dogs are so mean they will fight with themselves.

I don't remember hunting with you when I had that line bred nailor dog Richard. lol. Oh,and number 4 for the poll.

__________________
George Florence

'PR' OUTBACK TRASHY LULU

CH GRNTCH 'PR' WRECK IT RALPH (Dead Cat X Outback Trashy LuLu) 2017 UKC World Finalist. 2018 UKC World Hunt Qualified.

CH GRNTCH 'PR' CATS TRASHY TOMCAT (Dead Cat X Outback Trashy LuLu) 2016 , 2017 & 2018 UKC World hunt qualified

'PR' Blue Eyed Pete (Watsons Jackal X Hello Kitty)

'PR' Wipeout Harley (Joinertown Wipeout Zeb 3 X Dark Mtn Crankin Holly)

past home of

GRNTCH 'PR' DEAD CAT

NTCH WCH 'PR' DEAD CATS ECHO

Posted by MOX on 06-27-2018 11:31 PM:

#4 is definitely the right answer but one thing that know one has talked about is the judges responsibility to find the aggressor. I've heard and seen a lot of rumble and growling in the woods at night and a lot of dogs are good at hiding it when you walk in on them but I would say if you give that mean dog a few seconds when you get to the tree I would guess around 75% of the time they will show you which one is the aggressive dog and you can give punishment where it's due. You can say a judge or who ever should sacrifice to expose that one mean dog but that's just not right especially since you could draw the same dog out in local hunts for several years. I have seen some that chase dogs through the woods and wouldn't even let them get treed. Now those are the ones that are hard to catch

Posted by joey on 06-27-2018 11:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by MOX
#4 is definitely the right answer but one thing that know one has talked about is the judges responsibility to find the aggressor. I've heard and seen a lot of rumble and growling in the woods at night and a lot of dogs are good at hiding it when you walk in on them but I would say if you give that mean dog a few seconds when you get to the tree I would guess around 75% of the time they will show you which one is the aggressive dog and you can give punishment where it's due. You can say a judge or who ever should sacrifice to expose that one mean dog but that's just not right especially since you could draw the same dog out in local hunts for several years. I have seen some that chase dogs through the woods and wouldn't even let them get treed. Now those are the ones that are hard to catch

After there has been a fight or even some bad face barking. You cant go in and tell who is starting it. I don't mean you cant by the rules I just mean its a bad idea. Once a fight has started then the dog that was jumped on can easily become defensive. Your standing there watching and the dog that was jumped on face barks the other when they get close. You peg him as the aggressive dog and it is not. It would happen at least 50% of the time you tried catching them like that.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 06-29-2018 03:06 PM:

The 80% are obviously the ones who answered correctly. As often as we have covered dog fighting over the years, it bothers me a bit to see that a good number of hunters still think you have to physically see dogs fighting in order to scratch them for fighting. That is just not true.

How are nite hunts judged? By your ears and eyes, right? A great deal of judging is actually done with your ears. Recognizing a dog fight, when you're not within sight, is one of those.

Generally, experienced hunters can easily tell the difference between a little face barking or growling and an actual fight in progress, just by hearing it. Much the same as a dog that is declared treed but is not actually treed, or has went back on trail. When you have an obvious fight, then there should be action taken, if you can determine who was involved.

Rule 6 clearly states that when you have a dog fight you scratch the aggressor only. As several have already mentioned, the aggressor, otherwise defined as the one who started the fight, is not always the one "winning" the fight when you arrive at the scene. Therefore, often times you can't come to a conclusion on who the aggressor is/was when you didn't see it. So, in accordance with Rule 6, you scratch the dogs involved. Sure, one of the scratched dogs may not be the one with the temperamental issues but taking a scratch to insure the insti"gator" doesn't get away with it, is deemed as the better option.

Sometimes you'll have a situation where you have more then two dogs at the scene and you can't clearly determine who was actually involved. However, sometimes sound judgement suggests otherwise. One such example might be where an identified dog continues to hammer away (treeing) while the fight is in progress. This might easily be determined as dogs so and so as the ones involved. If so, as the judge, make that call so long as you are using sound judgement and there's no doubt. Otherwise, more times than not, you really can't determine which two were actually involved. In that case you simply shouldn't scratch any dog.

Our forefathers obviously had the foresight to put this rule in place for good reason. They believed that temperament issues are hereditary and it is not a desired trait in coonhounds to be passing on down the road. In other words, the intent was to keep it out of gene pools. Today, you hear a lot of smack talk where some tend to glorify such a trait or that you need a dog who will fight in order to stay hooked with those that are ill. Truth is; who in their right mind really likes an ill-tempered hound? Wouldn't it be a lot more pleasurable for everyone if "illness" in coonhounds didn't even exist? As an advocate for breeding good hunting stock, it's my opinion that we're only shooting ourselves in the foot with that mentality. We are doing ourselves and the coonhound breeds an injustice by not policing temperament in nite hunts. In doing so, sometimes those involved get caught up in the process but it's the better alternative.

Posted by Dogwhisper on 06-29-2018 03:28 PM:

Question for you Allen ,
Why is face barking allowed ?
Dogs engaged in it are clearly interfering with each other and displaying aggressive behavior. We
I don't need no one else's opinion .

Posted by Allen / UKC on 06-29-2018 03:35 PM:

On the topic of determining the aggressor, I want to add this as briefly mentioned in several posts. I hear it a lot where someone calls in to complain that their dog was wrongfully scratched for fighting when the aggressor should have been easy to determine.

One example is this. They had an obvious dog fight and when the arrive at the tree they find A on top of B, with B getting his butt handed to him. In their mind, A is the aggressor because he is the one on top and putting it to B. Well...... A may be handing it to B when you got there but by the intent of the rule, that does not mean A was the aggressor (the one who started it). Maybe so but he could just as well be the one who got jumped on and turns out to be the "bigger dog" when it comes to retaliation or self-defense.

Another example is where two dogs were found rolling and you don't know who started it. After separating the two its decided to turn both dogs back loose on the tree and watch the two. The dog who now throws the first punch will be identified as the aggressor!

This tells you absolutely nothing when it comes to determining the original instigator of the fight. All this does is tells you who might be starting fight #2. Again, it might very well be the same dog, but keep in mind, there's a good chance the non-instigator is pretty charged up at this point and might very well continue on with handing it to the dog who started the fight to begin with. Point is, rule on the situation you had. Not on a different one you are trying to start.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 06-29-2018 04:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dogwhisper
Question for you Allen ,
Why is face barking allowed ?
Dogs engaged in it are clearly interfering with each other and displaying aggressive behavior. We
I don't need no one else's opinion .

Personally, I put that kind of aggression in the same category as a temperament issue and it's not something that I'll put up with when it comes to feeding that kind.

However by rule, face barking alone is not an automatic scratch for fighting. However, it's the first criteria when it comes to "attempting to fight". The rules state that, in order to scratch for attempting to fight, the dog must be 1) showing a form of aggression and 2) must be interfering with another dog.

According to UKC's position, face barking would definitely be a form of aggression and satisfy the first criteria. As for clearly interfering with each other as you noted; the intent of the rule does not support your logic. Instead, the face-barker is largely subjected to how any other dog reacts to it. If that other dog has no issue with treeing or is not bothered much by it, then by rule the dog is not being interfered with. If it does keep the other dog from treeing then criteria #2 has also been met and the face-barker would be scratched for fighting.

Like everything else, these things require using solid judgement and common sense.

Posted by joey on 06-29-2018 04:25 PM:

Ok Allen one last clarification. A and B are treed in and a fight breaks out. C was in the area but no one knows where he is now. Can you scratch A and B not knowing where C is? In my thought process you don't know if C is in on the fight. Just because you do not here A or B barking treed doesn't mean they are fighting. I've walked into dogs treed with 2 fighting and 2 standing there watching. I think it was Todd that first said we could scratch them for hearing a fight but you had to be absolutely sure where the rest of the dogs in the cast are. If I remember he also said if there was more than 2 dogs on the tree you couldn't do it.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 06-29-2018 04:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
Ok Allen one last clarification. A and B are treed in and a fight breaks out. C was in the area but no one knows where he is now. Can you scratch A and B not knowing where C is? In my thought process you don't know if C is in on the fight. Just because you do not here A or B barking treed doesn't mean they are fighting. I've walked into dogs treed with 2 fighting and 2 standing there watching. I think it was Todd that first said we could scratch them for hearing a fight but you had to be absolutely sure where the rest of the dogs in the cast are. If I remember he also said if there was more than 2 dogs on the tree you couldn't do it.

You're thinking is spot on. You need to somehow eliminate C from possibly being involved. If you can't, then you're left with not knowing who was, or could have been, involved.

Posted by yadkintar on 06-29-2018 04:36 PM:

Allen just for clarification does or does not the hunting judge still have the authority to go into a tree with his light out to catch a polished aggressor ( light broke ) at the tree.

Tar

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:38 AM.

Pages (4): « 1 2 [3] 4 »
Show all 96 posts from this thread on one page