UKC Forums - Nite Hunt Scenario

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 03-04-2018 07:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
This one is a little complicated. Right up front, I don't think believe 4(j) can be applied here because that rule applies to trees and a live trap is not a tree, it is a place of refuge. To further complicate, it cannot be scored as a place of refuge if it has a coon. If it has a coon, everything is deleted. But in this case, since there is no coon, it is scored as a place of refuge. Minus the dogs declared treed, circle the dog handled at the scene. That's how I see it but I've been wrong before.

If there was a coon there it would have been deleted. With no way to gain points there also is no way to take minus, points should have been deleted. It is not a place of refuge it is a trap any other object is seen as a place of refuge or a tree and scored as such but not a trap.

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Posted by JiM on 03-04-2018 07:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
If there was a coon there it would have been deleted. With no way to gain points there also is no way to take minus, points should have been deleted. It is not a place of refuge it is a trap any other object is seen as a place of refuge or a tree and scored as such but not a trap.

When it's all said and done, that's prolly the right answer right there.

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Posted by Charles Pullen on 03-04-2018 07:27 PM:

Well I guess it's my turn to be wrong . At first I agreed with Redneck Mafia but the coon wasn't seen ( not if ) . So therefore it has to be scored. As far as a place of refuge , lol . That's a place where the coon could be hiding to me so I don't see that . So I would score it as A -225 , B -75 , C - 100 . Cut dogs loose back in for next available points which is 50 & 25 .

But the big question that's not answered is was the honey bun white icing or glazed ? That could make a difference.

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Posted by jawscardodger on 03-04-2018 07:28 PM:

So your saying a trap has its own rules that don't pertain to any other scenario.

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Posted by jkidd1 on 03-04-2018 07:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
If there was a coon there it would have been deleted. With no way to gain points there also is no way to take minus, points should have been deleted. It is not a place of refuge it is a trap any other object is seen as a place of refuge or a tree and scored as such but not a trap.

Would you still delete if there was a possum in the trap?

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 03-04-2018 08:03 PM:

Would you still delete if there was a possum in the trap?

Absolutely, My dog your dog anyones dog. The people saying that its different because there isnt a coon in the trap are completely wrong. If you cant gain points on a coon being there you cant loose points because its empty or be scratched because it had a possum in it. Its just a bad break for someone no matter whats there. Its deleted automatic grab em and cut back loose.

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 03-04-2018 08:10 PM:

Dog A 100 strike 125 tree both deleted
Dog B -75 tree cause you can't prove where he was treed at and left his 75 strike is still open
Dog C 50 strike deleted
Re-cut Dog A and C as soon as dog B opens.

Posted by jawscardodger on 03-04-2018 08:13 PM:

Your saying if you can't get plus points then you can not take minus points. I don't think this is a ukc rule unless I missed it somewhere.If so where is this rule?

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Posted by sleepy head on 03-04-2018 08:15 PM:

Red, would it change the scoring any if for some reason the trap door is open and what ever game is there is pulled out by the dogs?

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 03-04-2018 08:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
Red, would it change the scoring any if for some reason the trap door is open and what ever game is there is pulled out by the dogs?

Heck ya then it isn't a trap it is game caught on the ground plus their strikes and delete their trees and go on. But if it is in the trap it doesn't matter if is Jesus, 10 coons a possum a bobcat it is deleted if it is in that trap and they are barking at it.

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 03-04-2018 08:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jawscardodger
So your saying a trap has its own rules that don't pertain to any other scenario.

Yes.

Posted by jkidd1 on 03-04-2018 08:37 PM:

I like the thought of deleting the whole mess, rather than minusing one dog for being slick then not holding the other one to the same standard.

Posted by JiM on 03-04-2018 08:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jkidd1
I like the thought of deleting the whole mess, rather than minusing one dog for being slick then not holding the other one to the same standard.

The UKC rules are not always equitable. Why do they minus a dog that is treeing but not declared treed when the judge arrives at a slick but a dog that does the very same thing after the judge arrives gets circled strike? Why do we minus strike for a dog that covers late on a coon but circle strike if that dog covers late on a slick?

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 03-04-2018 08:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jkidd1
I like the thought of deleting the whole mess, rather than minusing one dog for being slick then not holding the other one to the same standard.

In the scenario here the only dog that takes minus would be dog B that had treed in and wasn't treed anywhere was still showing trail when cast arrived.

Posted by yadkintar on 03-04-2018 09:02 PM:

In theory with the honeybun involved it essentially is a coon feeder people hunt on feeders all the time maybe the dogs just run the track the wrong way lol.

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 03-04-2018 09:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
In theory with the honeybun involved it essentially is a coon feeder people hunt on feeders all the time maybe the dogs just run the track the wrong way lol.

Ohhhhhhh lurdy me !!!

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Undercover investigation .. the guy that pays to hunt others dogs arrived before the dogs at the cage and ate the honey bun before the dogs got there 2 dogs fell for the empty trap the bluebone experienced at tracking donuts was taking the track on out in search of the honey bun

Posted by yadkintar on 03-04-2018 09:36 PM:

No it said the honeybun was still there. So the coon wouldn't have been in the trap long. I can eat one in two bites !! I won't tolerate a dog that back tracks a honeybun lol.

Tar

Posted by jkidd1 on 03-04-2018 09:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
The UKC rules are not always equitable. Why do they minus a dog that is treeing but not declared treed when the judge arrives at a slick but a dog that does the very same thing after the judge arrives gets circled strike? Why do we minus strike for a dog that covers late on a coon but circle strike if that dog covers late on a slick?

I agree JiM, I've wondered on those myself. I just feel like in the situation if you minused Dog A, then you had to give it to Dog C, per rule 4(j). I'm still learning every time I pay that entry fee, thats why I like these ruling questions, they're free lol.

Posted by joey on 03-04-2018 10:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
If there was a coon there it would have been deleted. With no way to gain points there also is no way to take minus, points should have been deleted. It is not a place of refuge it is a trap any other object is seen as a place of refuge or a tree and scored as such but not a trap.

Once a dog has been treed the only way for it not to be accountable for those points is if the coon is caught or in a trap. What you are dealing with here are dogs barking at a cage not a trapped coon, that changes the whole situation. No different than if it was a leg hold trap, you cant plus a coon in one but what do you thing will happen if a treed dog is found barking at one?

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Posted by Vic Stoll on 03-04-2018 11:05 PM:

How would this differ from a dog found treeing on a tight fence? No place of refuge there either?

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Posted by Philip on 03-04-2018 11:30 PM:

I was on the line if there was a caught coon, no tree points awarded. But no coon. So minus A strike delete tree. Minus B tree cause was off trailing. C what to do with C minus strike, no coon at end of trail.

Posted by Rip on 03-05-2018 01:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
If there was a coon there it would have been deleted. With no way to gain points there also is no way to take minus, points should have been deleted. It is not a place of refuge it is a trap any other object is seen as a place of refuge or a tree and scored as such but not a trap.

This may be the correct answer but your reasoning would be wrong.

If it is the correct answer it is because of the specific ruling in the Advisor about traps. I would have to see the wording to have an opinion on how it applied here because one word or a comma can change the whole thing.

Your theory of no way to gain points means no way to minus points is incorrect and is not a rule in UKC. One example is a dog that trees after the 5. There is absolutely no way he can gain points BUT if he is at a slick tree treeing when the judge arrives he gets assigned the next available tree position and minused. He couldn't gain anything but by rules he got minused more.

However your point about being a specific rule about traps is absolutely correct, any time there is a rule about a specific thing that rule takes precedence over other more general rules so depending on the wording of the Advisor on traps you are very likely to be correct to delete the whole thing.

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Posted by joey on 03-05-2018 02:11 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
This may be the correct answer but your reasoning would be wrong.

If it is the correct answer it is because of the specific ruling in the Advisor about traps. I would have to see the wording to have an opinion on how it applied here because one word or a comma can change the whole thing.

Your theory of no way to gain points means no way to minus points is incorrect and is not a rule in UKC. One example is a dog that trees after the 5. There is absolutely no way he can gain points BUT if he is at a slick tree treeing when the judge arrives he gets assigned the next available tree position and minused. He couldn't gain anything but by rules he got minused more.

However your point about being a specific rule about traps is absolutely correct, any time there is a rule about a specific thing that rule takes precedence over other more general rules so depending on the wording of the Advisor on traps you are very likely to be correct to delete the whole thing.

The intent of the trap rule is the coon cant get away so it isn't fair chase. That doesn't apply to there not being anything in the trap. They are still accountable for their tree points.

Posted by Rip on 03-05-2018 02:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
The intent of the trap rule is the coon cant get away so it isn't fair chase. That doesn't apply to there not being anything in the trap. They are still accountable for their tree points.

That may be correct, but it depends on the wording of the trap rule as noted above.

However, if it were that way you still could not assign tree points to the other dog because it wasn't a tree and the Advisor has already ruled assigning tree points and the stationary rule both only apply to trees.

As for intent, intent of the rule never matters only the wording. That's why we had to reword the dog struck when shut out on strike otherwise they had no way to be minused for strike. That wasn't the intent but that is how it was worded so we had to live with it until it was changed.

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Posted by Donnie Stevens on 03-05-2018 02:54 AM:

I wouldn't assign any tree points but I'd minus everything on the card except the strike points of the one that wasn't there.

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