UKC Forums - Anyone seen the reproducers list lately??

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-- Anyone seen the reproducers list lately?? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928493114)

Posted by cooter_hunter on 10-06-2017 07:58 PM:

How many got qualified and didn’t even go to the zones this year because they didn’t wanna go to ga autumn oaks was disappointing but wasn’t there only 1 redbone for the grand masters? I’m optimistic about it and this thread wasn’t meant to be a redbone bash I was just curious if that’s how the list has always been or if it was declining and if it was declining I was wondering why. Is it less people care about the reproducers list and put more time into running money races with 1 good dog rather then push 1 good one and 10 mediocre ones to get a title on all of them to boost their numbers or if anyone else was curious what the list would look like if the number of pups required was changed

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Jesse Boley
Check us out at "moonlight redbones" on facebook

Posted by Tony Dominguez on 10-06-2017 07:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Are we making improvements? You are being pretty optimistic now. Only 3 Redbones even made it to Ga this year. There wasn't a Redbone in the Top 16 or Grand Masters Final Four at AO this year. We will see how they do in Salem in 2 weeks.

G-Mans back is still sore from the SS & PKC world last year 😉 He still doesn't get the recognition, so he's just a house dog now 😁

I sure hope to see some redbones double up this year in Salem!!! Good Luck!

__________________
Tony Dominguez
407 E. Clarksville st
Jefferson, Tx 75657
903-650-4495 call/txt anytime
Banshee Coon Squaller
Eukanuba Dog food

Redbone:
All Grand Outlaw G-Man
GRNITECH
GRAND SHOW CH
CHKC GRCH (all time $ leader)
PKC PLATINUM CH (all time $ leader)
2016 RESERVE FALL SUPER STAKE CH (only redbone to ever make the final 4)

Grnitech PKC CH Night Stalkin roxie
2018 top 16 PKC redbone breed
2018 Top 16 PA state race
2019 National Redbone days Champion

Walker:
UKC Dual Grand, PKC Silver Ch, CHKC Champion
Frost Bite Zoey

UKC Dual Grand, PKC Silver Ch, CHKC Champion
Dirty Little Tramp
Russ Myer hunt winner $20,000
Final 4 PKC super stakes

Past:
GOLD CH GRCH GRNITECH Classy Cali
GRCH GRNITECH 'PR' Outlaw Jack
CH GRNITECH 'PR' Apache Man
CH GRNITECH 'PR' Famous Outlaw Ann
CH GRNITECH 'PR' Tree Burning Moses

Posted by RIDDLEBERGER on 10-06-2017 08:00 PM:

Shane I was never knocking you as a person. I appreciate the offer for the pup.....and that squaller you built me can call every coon in the country down. Your a nice guy and I have not problem with you. The point I was trying to make is that next time use your OWN dogs as and example to prove a point and don't point out someone other guys dog to make an example I am not a big time breeder and never will be. I probably will never have a dog on that list unless its just sheer luck. I just like raising litters.... calling out on another mans dog at the bottom looks bad for not only my dog but all dogs that hit at the bottom of the list and I do not think people appreciate any type of bad publicity whether there dog deserves it or not.

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GRCH GRNITECH Moonlight Big D HTX (RED). (RIP old buddy we sure had some good times)

PKC CH GRCH GRNITECH GRWCH Good Nite Little D (RED) (Hound Dog Classic ARCH sectional highest scoring grand night and king of hunt)
(Cast wins @ Grand American, 3rd place at southern red days as a 1 year old, 5th place at va state hunt as a 1 year old) UKC Triple Grand!

CH NITECH WCH A Double Shot of Brandy (RED) (Va state water race tree ch, make Nitech in 3 back to back hunts)

FCH GRNITECH CH River Runnin TIP HTX (TW) (9th place at Grand American, Cast wins @autum oaks, Va state, southern redbone days, southeastern treeing walker days)

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 10-06-2017 08:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by RIDDLEBERGER
Shane I was never knocking you as a person. I appreciate the offer for the pup.....and that squaller you built me can call every coon in the country down. Your a nice guy and I have not problem with you. The point I was trying to make is that next time use your OWN dogs as and example to prove a point and don't point out someone other guys dog to make an example I am not a big time breeder and never will be. I probably will never have a dog on that list unless its just sheer luck. I just like raising litters.... calling out on another mans dog at the bottom looks bad for not only my dog but all dogs that hit at the bottom of the list and I do not think people appreciate any type of bad publicity whether there dog deserves it or not.

I was using the lowest dogs on the list as an example...i didn't even say their names. I can't use my dogs because I don't have a male on any list and probably never will because I only breed my males to a few select females and none will probably ever have a hundred pups. My female is number one on the current list so she isn't a good example either.
I couldn't make the point without using the dogs near the bottom of the top ten list and one happens to be yours. I know why he has the % he does...and it's not because he can't reproduce...its because probably two thirds of his pups before you even got him didn't go to coon hunters. That's not your fault and it's not his fault and I don't want anyone thinking that's what I was saying. There was clearly a misunderstanding by you and a few others as to what I was actually trying to say.
That happens alot when I post...thats why I don't post much anymore. I guess I am just hard to understand.
I like your dog and I think that if bred like his brother Aftershock...he will throw just as good a pups ...and that's why he interested me in the first place. Good luck with him.

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

Posted by RIDDLEBERGER on 10-06-2017 08:40 PM:

Yeah this whole thing seems to have spun out of control. Its just to hard for me to find titled females to breed to every-time I feel like having a litter of pups. It came off as bad publicity to my dog when I know that at least 75 percent of the pups are not being competition hunted...hes probably about to the age where hes not going to breed much longer and I just didn't want people straying across this post and thinking that there was a flaw with my dog or any of the other dogs near the bottom for that matter. I do not think that any of the other owners of the dogs near the bottom would feel any differently and most of them probably enjoy raising pups and do not feel embarrassed by a number. Just came off as bad publicity for my dog and the other dogs near the bottom which struck a nerve. No pun intended to you as a person in any way.

Posted by TimStanley on 10-06-2017 11:27 PM:

I have a litter of pups right now in their 3 gen pedigree have many that are on the list but it doesn't help getting them sold. Haven't had but a handful of guys interested

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Posted by cooter_hunter on 10-07-2017 05:20 PM:

Tony we all know recognition has nothing to do with why g mans at home...you got a taste of that walker money and poor allen can’t afford to pay you twice as much to win half as much as van and Shane do lmao

Brandon I called out the dog on the bottom of the list too and didn’t mean for it to be your dog and with you not caring who breeds him I didn’t think the “bad publicity” would effect you so I’m sorry if I offended

Richard I’ve heard the negative and the criticism for the post and the list but never really heard what you think would happen if they dropped the numbers and could see dogs like jet Boone and other guys who don’t care about the list and just wanna breed 5 or 6 good females in their lifetime and maybe deserve to be noticed for being a truly solid reproducer rather then a puppy mill. Or even what would it take for a reproducers list to be more of an asset when looking at studs or females? I know I’ve told you I never hunted with rabble only hunted with a few dogs out of him but after seeing his numbers on the list and seeing that he was one of the only dogs in ANY breed to have more grands then nitech thats no numbers game thats more then a few guys can do with some mediocre dogs trying to boost numbers like 50 nitech 2 grands that’s just people buying pups training em and liking them so much they wanna make them a cornerstone to a breeding program and I will have a heavy rabble dog bred into something at my house you can bet on that

All my interest and all the questioning and even some friends came from my quest to find out as much about rabble and T-Top as possible and even though I’ve heard of him and beat and been beat by dogs out of him the thing that really caught my attention and made me want to look again was and again no offense to anyone the HUGE difference between his numbers at #2 and the #1 dog
#1 spot......45 nitech/ 9 grands/ 360 produced/ 293 registered
#2 Rabble..10 nitech/ 15grands/190 produced/ 148 registered
#3 spot.....16 nitech/ 6 grands/ 208 produced/ 140 registered

__________________
Jesse Boley
Check us out at "moonlight redbones" on facebook

Posted by cooter_hunter on 10-07-2017 05:37 PM:

October historical list

#1 spot......45 nitech/ 9 grands/ 360 produced/ 293 registered
#2 Rabble..10 nitech/ 15grands/190 produced/ 148 registered
#3 spot.....16 nitech/ 6 grands/ 208 produced/ 140 registered

Do some of the figuring on those for rabble over 77% of every pup he produced was registered that’s not somthing anyone playing a game would do. of every pup registered 25 titled out and of those 25 something like 60% of the titles are GRNITECH I’m not knocking the other dogs but isn’t this what the list is for?

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Check us out at "moonlight redbones" on facebook

Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-07-2017 06:36 PM:

Slick, look at how many of Rabbles's direct offspring went on to become pretty good reproducers themselves, both male and females.
I don't think that changing the parameters for the list will have much impact on who gets bred. The Redbone world is pretty small now with the advent of the interweb. "I think" that people may look at the List but it is only a very small part of their decision of who to breed to.
It will have a big impact on the List and how that game is played but not much else. Stud owners wishing to play will breed fewer females but that is about it. But then I am just guessing. I don't really know and I doubt that we will find out.

Posted by rickp on 10-07-2017 07:26 PM:

Guitars Ghost Mississippi would way up on the list but she has less than 20 pups and probably will not have any more I know she has 6 hunt titled pups

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NITE CHAMPION PRUITT'S CHIEF ( GRCH GRNITECH T-TOP DARK TIMBER MOOSE CH SOGGYBOTTOM LOCKET DOWN )
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NITECH PRUITT'S MAGGIE MAE (GRNITECH THE RED ROCKER X GRNITECH CH PR GUITAR'S GHOST MISSISSIPPI )
PRUITT'S MISS MOLLY ( CH YELLOW RIVER RED COPPER X FICKEN'S LATE NIGHT STAR )

Posted by Chris Snyder on 10-08-2017 01:10 AM:

Excuses, excuses, excuses

Same old tired mess. If you want better numbers, make a better freakin product that anybody can take, train and title without having to train like a pro, hunt like a divorcee and handle like some of you all do.

As if the Redbones werent the laughing stock already...lets lower our standards. Thats genius.

Ive got a buddy who owns a walker dog named Maker. Hes bred good, is a cooner and produces well. Hes not even a NtCh and has around 200 pups. Hes bred several titled dogs. Its not a numbers game. Its a quality game.

Until it truly becomes about the improvement of the dogs and not about getting your ego stroked on a message board or your picture taken then you can expect more of the same

I agree with the OP.

Posted by cooter_hunter on 10-08-2017 04:06 AM:

I don’t disagree with you Chris but how many of the Walker dogs numbers come from there being more females available for a nice walker to breed or get rid of pups out of 2 nice dogs or how much was because walker breed don’t care how it’s bred if it’s better then what they got at home they will breed to it to hell with the bloodlines or owner? I know a lot more redbone people who would rather hunt a common dog for free out of there own stock then get paid to hunt something special out of a dog they don’t like? Maybe we just got to much pride in the breed to be willing to jump ship to the big winners and make better dogs?

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Posted by cooter_hunter on 10-08-2017 04:16 AM:

And for the record I’m not trying to get excuses just some ideas of what everyone thinks the issue is...figured it’s a slow time for the board might as well ask some questions while I got time to let everyone who gets butthurt time to get over it before I see anyone in June at American days lol..I’d get in depth and see what you think but I don’t recognize your name

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Jesse Boley
Check us out at "moonlight redbones" on facebook

Posted by Larry D Walker on 10-08-2017 02:32 PM:

Proly should just stay out of it..but....

Maybe should be less concerned about titles and list..

And more concerned about whats in your kennel or coming out of your kennel or snapped on the end of your lead..

when there is a time that a line of redbones or any redbone..can compete and dominate on a national level then maybe we can put some weight on those titles and list..but thats not happening...atleast not yet...so to me those titles and list dont mean alot...redbones have a long way to go..and those titles and list are not gonna get them there..it hasnt yet and it never will..

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Indiana

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-08-2017 02:51 PM:

What about Smokin Red Buck? Wasn't he able to compete at the National level? Didn't he come from a couple of dogs that competed at the National level and were on that list at one time? I wonder what would you get if someone bred a nice female to him?
Shine and Danno have been competing at the National level for a couple of years now. And they come from "Listers". But Danno is one of those studs at the bottom of the list and Shine isn't even on it. Are Redbone female owners lining up to breed to them?
Supposedly, the reason for the list is because people are concerned about what is coming out of or is in their kennel.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 10-08-2017 04:58 PM:

Funny thing about those lists....
People who don't have a dog on them or out of one that is on them always seem to think they don't matter....
But boy, when they finally do they sure like to point it out and talk about it....
Especially if it's on that list for the other registry who hunts for money....
No list can be of any help, to anyone....if breeders don't know how to connect the dots and use the information to produce better dogs. Everyone seems to have it all figured out....but nobody seems to be able to produce a consistent string of winners at a higher than average percent with any regularity...or can they??? If there were a few....these lists (that so many here seem to be discounting) would be the first indicator.
And even if they did....and those results showed up on one of these lists....all these people would just make up a list of reasons why it doesn't matter (probably because they still don't have one showing on a list)
If you can't track results... or don't know how to connect the dots ....then you can't use those results for any useful purpose. After reading some of the responses on here...i think one of two things is happening. Either people do not know how to connect the dots produced from these lists...or they are just in denial of the results because they don't like some of the dogs or their owners that are on them.
But when people say that dogs that are on these lists that track winners and reproducers of winners just don't matter much....then tell us what does?
Tell us what better tool a breeder has to use that can help us breed and produce better redbones...and then track the results in a way that isn't opinion based....
I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to here the answer....

Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-08-2017 05:25 PM:

Everything is opinion based. Everyone has their own personal opinion of the lists and and how to use them. I think that my own personal opinion is my best "tool". I listen to other people's opinions and use the lists to a certain extent but I don't take them at face value. Just like hunt wins, I look at the when, where, handler and circumstances surrounding the wins. And in the end, I make my decisions based on my own personal opinions. And my "opinion" is based on the "facts" as I see them.
Surely everyone thinks that their own personal opinion is the best one and really that is the one that counts.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 10-08-2017 06:22 PM:

Like I said...some people only seem to give credit if they like the dog, the line it's from or it's owner...regardless of what or how much it wins. If they don't like a combination of those things....they will find an excuse not to give credit for their wins, titles or accomplishments. Seems to be the way it is these days...even outside of the dog world. Half the country refuses to accept that Trump won the election and is our president because in "their opinion" he didn't win or should not have won. Sad fact seems to be that facts and stats just don't matter anymore....even if they were by the rules. What's next?
If we get beat by a dog fair and square and by the rules...we can refuse to accept the win and not give credit for it?
Why have lists and track wins and reproducer numbers if so many people refuse to accept the results.....which by the way have rules and specific requirements...
Your right...everyone has a right to their opinion...but they don't have a right to make up.alternative facts if they don't like the real facts.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-08-2017 07:12 PM:

What if a handler "wins" a hunt not the dog? Should the dog get credit for the win? Should I make decisions based on what I think are "handler wins"? What if I think that a dog got wins in substandard competition? I use my own personal opinion to quantify "wins". I give some wins more weight than other wins. Are these "alternative facts"? I also consider the source whenever I collect information. I never take "facts" at face value. I always question them. I guess that I do use alternative facts to form my personal opinions. But since they are my personal opinions, then I can form them any way that I want to. Kinda like breeding, I can decide who to breed my female to any way that I want to. I wonder if that is my "right". And of course everyone has the "right" to not buy a pup if they don't like my opinions.

Posted by cooter_hunter on 10-08-2017 07:29 PM:

Not to be rude but wasn’t shine at the top of a list or 2 this year and freak before? Those races don’t mean anything? Why run for money or state races then who cares about the performance race or truck ticket wins? How many redbones ever won a pro hunt does that not qualify as a national level why keep trying to win races and hunts if they don’t really matter because the breed race isn’t really against “real” competition? You have to win the overall race for it to be considered a real win? I don’t know if you actually have an oppionion about this or if you’re just trying to knock someone’s dog I don’t know about please feel free to clarify mr walker

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Posted by cooter_hunter on 10-08-2017 07:33 PM:

I agree Richard I also look deeper then just the win like who the competition is where the hunt is who’s the handler and honestly when a dog might not even win the cast but whoever does comes back and says yeah I got a good break and ended up winning but that redbone I draw was one of the toughest I’ve ever seen sometimes means more then when a redbone might win the cast and everyone comes back and said yeah they all looked like garbage but the redbone did as little as possible and backed or stood by our feet all night so it took the least amount of minus and won with 25 or something...there’s always more to a win then just a win slip

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 10-08-2017 07:35 PM:

I have rarely seen a handler win....without the help of a coon dog...and the same goes for the reverse. Some dogs are better than others and some handlers are better than others...but neither can win by themselves. This is a team sport and each team is one dog and one man. You act surprised
It seems too convenient these days to steal credit from the dog and give it all to the handler in a way that seems to diminish the accomplishments of the dog, or both....and some do this in reverse to handlers also.
Wins are not opinion based...we all know that....the best dog in the cast doesnt always win in competition (that is an opinion)...but usually does. And the best dog ...according to the rules always wins ( that's a fact). Dogs that win over and over...for a long stretch of time across many states with different handlers...thise are proven winners and deserve respect and recognition. But there are plenty who will discount them because they don't like the owner or the line they are from. That's their opinion...but if you hold that opinion often enough in the face of undeniable facts that everyone can see who follows closely....your opinion might not be held in very high regard by your peers...

Posted by cooter_hunter on 10-08-2017 07:52 PM:

Again I’m not trying to brag about the reproducers list even with a few relatives of the dogs at my house are on it, quite the opposite I started this by saying it was weak and looking to see if guys are changing strategies and breeding fewer dogs trying to get litters with 2 or 3 above average coondogs instead of more crosses and finding the needle in the haystack for a good one and maybe some breeders have their dogs numbers figured out and would share them since they might not have enough pups to make the list as it is now and maybe share the spotlight to guys going for quality over quantity that you don’t see in the books.

But what’s better for you guys buying a dog that can win lots of big hunts that can’t reproduce worth a crap or one that wins its fair share and can produce dogs that win a little more then they did and keeping that building and building? Be nice to be able to see a dog win some $ races win some big pro hunts elite shootouts whatever then turn around and be performance dam or sire of the year and grab a good spot on the reproducers list isn’t THAT what we should be striving for or am I stuck in fairy tale land and just hoping for perfect situations? Lol we seemed to have no dominate winner this year across tinge board pepper dogs being 2/3 of the redbones in Ukc quarter finals and winning the performance race 1 moonlight dog taking opp sex and overall at redbone days with a few others with cw shine running the pkc race but buck ended up making quite the splash for that month or 2 allen and van had with him running basicly big entries or added purse hunts we all know they’re all coondogs different styles and bloodlines but all some of the best on a leash right now..so shouldn’t the next step be seeing who can reproduce winners like them?

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 10-08-2017 08:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cooter_hunter
Again I’m not trying to brag about the reproducers list even with a few relatives of the dogs at my house are on it, quite the opposite I started this by saying it was weak and looking to see if guys are changing strategies and breeding fewer dogs trying to get litters with 2 or 3 above average coondogs instead of more crosses and finding the needle in the haystack for a good one and maybe some breeders have their dogs numbers figured out and would share them since they might not have enough pups to make the list as it is now and maybe share the spotlight to guys going for quality over quantity that you don’t see in the books.

But what’s better for you guys buying a dog that can win lots of big hunts that can’t reproduce worth a crap or one that wins its fair share and can produce dogs that win a little more then they did and keeping that building and building? Be nice to be able to see a dog win some $ races win some big pro hunts elite shootouts whatever then turn around and be performance dam or sire of the year and grab a good spot on the reproducers list isn’t THAT what we should be striving for or am I stuck in fairy tale land and just hoping for perfect situations? Lol we seemed to have no dominate winner this year across tinge board pepper dogs being 2/3 of the redbones in Ukc quarter finals and winning the performance race 1 moonlight dog taking opp sex and overall at redbone days with a few others with cw shine running the pkc race but buck ended up making quite the splash for that month or 2 allen and van had with him running basicly big entries or added purse hunts we all know they’re all coondogs different styles and bloodlines but all some of the best on a leash right now..so shouldn’t the next step be seeing who can reproduce winners like them?

If you look at the reproducer lists and the sire and dam performance point lists...you can see who is reproducing those dogs that are winning.
The problem isn't always the lack of data and facts...its people who don't want to accept those two things....

Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-08-2017 08:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw

The problem isn't always the lack of data and facts...its people who don't want to accept those two things....

Oh my goodness, is there a problem? As I said before, everyone "accepts" the data and facts differently. But is that a problem? Facts and data can be manipulated. I have been accused of manipulaing facts or data quite a few times in the past.

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