UKC Forums - Rules ?

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Posted by shadinc on 04-03-2017 12:23 AM:

If the dog was west when last heard and is 1000 yards north now ,which way would the cast walk? Pre Garmin you walk west.

Posted by msinc on 04-03-2017 01:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by rob thompson
The advisor

Unless UKC finally did the much needed update recently...."The Advisor" is about a joke. It is so outdated and misleading because the rules have to change every year that it's to the point where someone reading it is beat before they start. I gave up a while back on that book....every time I looked up an issue whatever it said was wrong due to rule changes.
I remember in 2013 when I ordered the copy I have the lady at UKC said, "you might want to wait before you spend the money on "The Advisor", they are supposed to be doing an updated version soon...."
I bought what they had and that was a waste. I am still waiting.......

Posted by rob thompson on 04-03-2017 01:14 AM:

Its pretty clear to me.

Posted by jculler8 on 04-03-2017 01:44 AM:

Re: Rules ?

quote:
Originally posted by dean jamerson
Cast turns loose, after the minute one dog opens three times and is struck, shuts up. Cast advances up on a ridge 100 yards or so and 8 minute rule applied. About 4 or 5 minutes in handler of dog says she is a thousand yards we need to tighten up so I can hear my dog. Do you advance or stay out and finish running 8 where you are?

If cast agrees (and they should in this situation since only 1 dog was struck and was hear opening) to walk any way the handler of struck dog wants to walk. If more than 1 dog(s) are struck, split the difference. The Garmin should not be used to score the dog. 1000 yards and babbling has nothing to do with this question since a Garmin is being used to determine that.

Remember that handler of dog in question asked to tighten up on the dog "4 or 5 minutes in" of the 8, that does not mean to "stop" the 8 until the cast gets to a good spot to hear or listen!

In this situation, I as a judge, with only 1 dog struck would have applied the 8 once we initially tightened up 100 yards the first time at the top of the hill. After 4 or 5 minutes of the 8, if only 1 dog were still struck, and that dog's handler asked to tighten up, I would ask the cast to tighten up in whichever direction the handler would want to walk and stop and listen at 7:15 gone on the 8. That would give the cast a couple minutes to tighten up and at the same time listen for other dogs.

Really guys... remember, you walk to the top of a hill 100 yards. You run the 8 for 4 or 5 minutes and then you walk for another 2!!!! How far are you really getting???

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 04-03-2017 02:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
If the dog was west when last heard and is 1000 yards north now ,which way would the cast walk? Pre Garmin you walk west.

Pre-Garmin or post-Garmin you walk whatever direction the handler thinks he will be able to hear the dog again this is not new.

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Posted by dean jamerson on 04-03-2017 11:53 AM:

If Ukc or anyone else thinks cast are not using Garmin in this situation we are all crazy. Handler didn't asked to tighten up, his comment was my dog is a 1000 yards we need to walk so I can hear her. Eyes glued to the Garmin like a kid at a nude beach! As a handler you just need to take a peek and ask cast if they would mind walking in whatever direction your dog is. So in this situation how many here use there garmin to determine which way cast should walk?

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Posted by dean jamerson on 04-03-2017 11:53 AM:

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Posted by Robert Johnson on 04-03-2017 01:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Unless UKC finally did the much needed update recently...."The Advisor" is about a joke. It is so outdated and misleading because the rules have to change every year that it's to the point where someone reading it is beat before they start. I gave up a while back on that book....every time I looked up an issue whatever it said was wrong due to rule changes.
I remember in 2013 when I ordered the copy I have the lady at UKC said, "you might want to wait before you spend the money on "The Advisor", they are supposed to be doing an updated version soon...."
I bought what they had and that was a waste. I am still waiting.......

The advisor is still a great tool for the official rule interputations of the UKC. Most of the rules in there have not changed, and the ones that have should be pretty obvious to the reader as soon as he/she begins to read it. While I myself do not agree with all the written facts, they are just that, facts. those facts don't change, and they are the official guidelines to go by in figuring out a rules intent. Like them or not, use it and you will become a lot better versed on the rules at hand. Sure, I wish we could get a new advisor every three years when the rules change. It really would be less complicated, but it also would be much more time consuming for an already stretched staff to write such, and to say the least, EXPENSIVE. I seriously doubt you could sell even one copy of the book for actual cost it takes to print them up. $15.00 is a steal, and if you get it at one of the larger hunts, I think it can be bought for $10.00. No shipping cost to deal with. In any event, it is a great tool to enhance your knowledge of the UKC rules as they are intended.

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Posted by msinc on 04-03-2017 01:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dean jamerson
If Ukc or anyone else thinks cast are not using Garmin in this situation we are all crazy. Handler didn't asked to tighten up, his comment was my dog is a 1000 yards we need to walk so I can hear her. Eyes glued to the Garmin like a kid at a nude beach! As a handler you just need to take a peek and ask cast if they would mind walking in whatever direction your dog is. So in this situation how many here use there garmin to determine which way cast should walk?

Everyone that has or has access to a Garmin at the time, or they are lying...it's slap simple. If they don't have one, somebody in the cast does and the question gets asked, "how far out are they???" or "which way did they go???"
As I read the "telemetry rules" in the hunt packet, I don't see the violation...you are not using it to score dogs, keep someone from hearing their dog or it's not being used to make a determination by a MOH or panel.
In fact, I am surprised more people don't get accused of using it to tree dogs...the Alpha vibrates and beeps to tell you the dog is treed, unless the handler has that feature turned off, and that is usually when the handler calls the dog treed. Edit: or when another handler calls his treed to get the 125.....

Posted by snaggles on 04-03-2017 02:06 PM:

show me a rule that says u can do anything besides put the eight on a dog that opens more than three times after the eight. cause you are wrong ole jim. their is not a rule in the book book that states that. babbling rule is used before the minute an that's it

Posted by msinc on 04-03-2017 02:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by snaggles
show me a rule that says u can do anything besides put the eight on a dog that opens more than three times after the eight. cause you are wrong ole jim. their is not a rule in the book book that states that. babbling rule is used before the minute an that's it

I don't believe Mr. Jim is wrong....read the scorecard, minus points for dogs determined to be babbling.....then read #18. Definitions, babbling is defined as a dog opening "where no track is evident". Where no track is evident is a judges call.

"babbling rule is used before the minute an that's it".....isn't BEFORE the minute their free ride????? Maybe I don't understand what you are saying here. It sounds like you are suggesting that a dog cannot receive minus points for babbling at any time during the hunt???? He certainly can. Babbling is babbling and it's a judges call no matter when during the 2 hours the dog does it.

Posted by dean jamerson on 04-03-2017 02:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Everyone that has or has access to a Garmin at the time, or they are lying...it's slap simple. If they don't have one, somebody in the cast does and the question gets asked, "how far out are they???" or "which way did they go???"
As I read the "telemetry rules" in the hunt packet, I don't see the violation...you are not using it to score dogs, keep someone from hearing their dog or it's not being used to make a determination by a MOH or panel.
In fact, I am surprised more people don't get accused of using it to tree dogs...the Alpha vibrates and beeps to tell you the dog is treed, unless the handler has that feature turned off, and that is usually when the handler calls the dog treed. Edit: or when another handler calls his treed to get the 125.....

So are you saying it is NOT A VIOLATION to use the Garmin to determine which way dog went after being struck? To me you are using it to help score a dog

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Posted by JiM on 04-03-2017 03:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by snaggles
show me a rule that says u can do anything besides put the eight on a dog that opens more than three times after the eight. cause you are wrong ole jim. their is not a rule in the book book that states that. babbling rule is used before the minute an that's it

I can see there is no convincing you so I'm fine with you going through life being wrong on this one.

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Posted by pttm08 on 04-03-2017 03:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by snaggles
show me a rule that says u can do anything besides put the eight on a dog that opens more than three times after the eight. cause you are wrong ole jim. their is not a rule in the book book that states that. babbling rule is used before the minute an that's it

Where is the rule that says it is?

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Posted by JiM on 04-03-2017 03:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dean jamerson
So are you saying it is NOT A VIOLATION to use the Garmin to determine which way dog went after being struck? To me you are using it to help score a dog

Dean, as time passes, it will become more and more accepted to say " My Garmin says......" . I know where you are coming from and i totally agree with you but we are both beating a dead horse. The overwelming majority of coonhunters today wouldnt even hunt if you took away their Garmin. The same for cell phones. The rules on Garmin use in a hunt will soon but moot because nobody will be abiding by them and the next generation wont be able to
to judge a cast without them. It makes not one bit of difference what UKC says about it, they have lost control on this one.

Posted by shadinc on 04-03-2017 03:30 PM:

So now I understand the telemetry rule: It's a joke.

Posted by dean jamerson on 04-03-2017 03:36 PM:

I agree Jim, it was a young guy,went batxxxx crazy when I told he wasn't supposed to use Garmin in this manner, at least the way I understand it you were not suppose to. He was special though told me in the truck he had a color blindness that allowed him to see and find coons the rest of us couldnt, that's why he could see first coon we treed but none of the rest of us could. I kid you not!

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 04-03-2017 03:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dean jamerson
To me you are using it to help score a dog

But not to UKC and they are the ones that count. To them "scoring" means determining whether to plus or minus. As in " my dog didn't move, just look at my Garmin". Or "my dog is treed, the Garmin says so".

Posted by JiM on 04-03-2017 03:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dean jamerson
I agree Jim, it was a young guy,went batxxxx crazy when I told he wasn't supposed to use Garmin in this manner, at least the way I understand it you were not suppose to. He was special though told me in the truck he had a color blindness that allowed him to see and find coons the rest of us couldnt, that's why he could see first coon we treed but none of the rest of us could. I kid you not!

I need to hire that guy!

Posted by dean jamerson on 04-03-2017 04:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
But not to UKC and they are the ones that count. To them "scoring" means determining whether to plus or minus. As in " my dog didn't move, just look at my Garmin". Or "my dog is treed, the Garmin says so".

Or let me use my Garmin to get the cast close enough to hear my struck dog....without the Garmin you didn't know which way dog went....how is that different?

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Posted by joey on 04-03-2017 04:03 PM:

We are making this a lot harder than it should be. Walking a direction to hear a dog is not scoring it, UKC has never said we can not do that. We could do it before the garmin and it can be done now. Richard is right what they do not want you to do is use the garmin to prove anything that is being questioned. So he can look at the garmin and go anyway he wants to too hear his dog as long as he is not walking you out of hearing of dogs that are opening.

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Posted by shadinc on 04-03-2017 04:24 PM:

Pre Garmin if your dog was 1000 yards away he could well be done for the night. With the Garmin you go get him and he wins the cast. If that's not a case of telemetry determining the outcome of a cast I'm missing something.

Posted by msinc on 04-03-2017 04:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
Pre Garmin if your dog was 1000 yards away he could well be done for the night. With the Garmin you go get him and he wins the cast. If that's not a case of telemetry determining the outcome of a cast I'm missing something.

I understand your reasoning shadinc, but how is it different than pre-Garmin your dog got out some unknown direction and you could hear the house dogs you knew would bark at him {or cows or horses making noise}...either way you knew the dogs whereabouts and that was helpful. It is an advantage to know where your dog is when others may not be so clear, but I am not so sure it constitutes cheating to happen to know.
The whole Garmin thing was a can of worms from day one...what else can UKC do??? Based on safety alone they don't want to say no to telemetry...on the other hand, the info it provides makes it so to really be fair either every handler has one or none in the hunt?????

Posted by msinc on 04-03-2017 04:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dean jamerson
Or let me use my Garmin to get the cast close enough to hear my struck dog....without the Garmin you didn't know which way dog went....how is that different?

Knowing which way the dog went does not necessarily automatically equate to plus or minus points on the score card...just like not knowing might possibly prevent some minus. Would it be an unfair advantage if one handler had a dog loud enough that he alone knew what that one single dog was always doing???? or was that just the better dog that particular night in those woods???

Posted by msinc on 04-03-2017 04:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I need to hire that guy!

No B.S.!!!!! I'll go one better....I'll pay his way to my house, give him a rental to live in and food!!!!! About 6 months worth is all I should need.

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