UKC Forums - Master of hounds ?

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Posted by Robert Johnson on 03-08-2017 02:46 PM:

now that everyone has had their say about the rule, good or bad, and how dumb the rule is etc... let me tell you the other side of why it is a rule. The scorecard, is a written document that tells the story of how a hunt plays out. The strike and tree columns are used by the judge to document when and for what value a handler puts his hound on the card. That happens most times as we strike and tree our dogs, then waiting out the 5 minutes, the cast proceeds to the tree to officially score it. After scoring, a value is placed on the card as to whether or not we saw a coon, via plus, minus, circle or delete. It then tells the story of the tree in question, and we move on to the next one after re-casting. That said, lets say there is no values placed on this important document, and a question mark was. As of then and there, how is a MOH to get a real feel for what happened at that tree in the woods. Without those little value marks, it would be almost impossible for him, or a panel for that matter, to make a good sound decision on the question. The rule is there as a checks and balance for the hunt officials to use should there be questions in the woods. Yes the penalty for not doing so is harsh, but it really should never once get a dog scratched, provided the handlers listen as the MOH guidelines are read out before the casts are sent to the woods. Very clearly, it states the penalty for not complying. Each handler is responsible for his portion of the card, and should use caution to ensure his dogs part is right and accurate before it is signed. While it is a bad deal when a young hunter has to be scratched, its part of the rules, and I assure you that no MOH feels like a great person for having to his/her duty in that case, but we can only enforce, NOT CHANGE, the rules. As bad a rule as some may think this rule is, it is a very viable part to be used by the hunt officials to determine what actually took place in the woods. Its the record of events, and the signed document that said it happened as written. WHEN IT IS INCOMPLETE, how can a sound decision be made? Like it or not, this rule does have meaning, and any MOH or hunt panel worth their weight can see how and why it is to be used. Can this rule be changed? YES, every 3 years any rule can be changed, but we as hunters and hunt officials and UKC staffers have to weigh out what changes to support that will be a good change, and which won't. I really do not care one way or the other, but as it is right now, it used as a tool. Can we do with out it? OF COURSE we can, but it would be kind of like using a wrench for a hammer out your tool box. It works, but makes the task harder.

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Posted by yadkintar on 03-08-2017 02:59 PM:

Rock which is worse making an ( honest ) fixable mistake on the card ( scratchable) offense or getting caught shocking your dog (barring offense ) overlooked ?

Posted by Robert Johnson on 03-08-2017 03:35 PM:

They are all breaking rules Yadkin. you already know the correct answer. I am not here to debate which rule is ok to break and which has to be enforced. They all are rules and must be followed. An MOH can only do so much, but when he enforces all rules honestly and fairly, he has done his part. The way I see this thing is simple, you continue to try and convince folks that its ok to break that rule in question. Its a rule, and must be enforced as any other. CHEATING is not enforcing the rules, regardless of who you are. CHEATING is a barring offense also, just to remind you. The MOH is not tasked with "fixing" anything, only enforcing as written. Not being harsh, but that is my stance.

Posted by yadkintar on 03-08-2017 03:46 PM:

Your right rock and I got to go by them man just seems like the older I get I just hate to take take the fun out of it for sombody Especialy when they don't know they done anything wrong but vote ole tar to be on the voting committee in 2 yrs we will shake up the world lol you are completely right rock.

Ps : Rock you as well as me know somtimes that depends on who you are that's buissness.

Posted by J I Allen on 03-08-2017 04:21 PM:

Looking in the $kc magazine this weekend at a local UKC hunt in North Carolina all of there hunts in North Carolina only had 4 dogs, 2 of those hunts had 6 dogs. In the December issue of Bloodlines all the UKC hunts listed in that issue for North Carolina averaged 8 dogs, yet S&S hunting supply had a pound hunt and around 50 dogs showed up. According to a person that went to that hunt the people said they didn't hunt comp hunts because of the bad things they had heard. Like I said before, keep breaking it off in people young or old and soon you'll be the only person at the hunt. When all the scores are totaled and are correct and you throw that card in the trash because the MOH can't use common sense with the cast standing there to clarify what happened, those people will not be back. When one section of the rules state the MOH can make math corrections, this should be considered a math correction

Posted by msinc on 03-08-2017 04:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by nitehunter2004
I agree!
I just don't think it should be a scratch-able offense.

I also agree and I also don't believe it should be a scratchable offense. For the life of me I cant figure out why someone believed this should be regarded as something so serious. I honestly believe that any reasonable person, especially a master of hounds, can easily tell the difference between such a simple mistake and some sort of underhanded attempt at cheating. I don't get the whole "incomplete score" is such a problem thing...even if they did forget or not add right, or not have a plus in the right place...if everyone in the cast agrees what it should be back at the MOH then fix it and move on. All that said, not agreeing with a rule is one thing, not following them is another.
I think the best thing UKC could possibly do is quit making so many changes to the rules. Before someone jumps on this with the old "UKC don't change the rules the breed associations/reps do"...no, it's UKC's rules. Why confuse people constantly for nothing??? 8 minutes this year, 10 minutes next...2 minutes for this right now, 3 minutes two years ago. What is the point?? Does it really matter????

Edit: I get what you are saying Mr. Johnson, but your post above sounds like the cast goes AWOL after the card is handed in...I get the incomplete score thing, but if the cast is there and they all agree on it, which is typically the case then it's not as if you have to try and figure it out all by yourself.

Posted by Robert Johnson on 03-08-2017 05:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
I also agree and I also don't believe it should be a scratchable offense. For the life of me I cant figure out why someone believed this should be regarded as something so serious. I honestly believe that any reasonable person, especially a master of hounds, can easily tell the difference between such a simple mistake and some sort of underhanded attempt at cheating. I don't get the whole "incomplete score" is such a problem thing...even if they did forget or not add right, or not have a plus in the right place...if everyone in the cast agrees what it should be back at the MOH then fix it and move on. All that said, not agreeing with a rule is one thing, not following them is another.
I think the best thing UKC could possibly do is quit making so many changes to the rules. Before someone jumps on this with the old "UKC don't change the rules the breed associations/reps do"...no, it's UKC's rules. Why confuse people constantly for nothing??? 8 minutes this year, 10 minutes next...2 minutes for this right now, 3 minutes two years ago. What is the point?? Does it really matter????

Edit: I get what you are saying Mr. Johnson, but your post above sounds like the cast goes AWOL after the card is handed in...I get the incomplete score thing, but if the cast is there and they all agree on it, which is typically the case then it's not as if you have to try and figure it out all by yourself.

Most times on a question they are around. just bringing it back, hardly ever is anyone but the one who returns the card to you around. Thing is, it matters not until the rules are changed. I can not and will not pick the ones to enforce and not. my MOH test didn't allow me to make that decision.

Posted by Max LeBleu on 03-08-2017 08:02 PM:

This is not a MOH issue. They have a job to do and a rule book to follow no matter how stupid the rule may be.

UKC should change this rule since it has no relevance on which dog done the best job that night at running and treeing a coon. All it does is punish someone for not catching a mistake on the card prior to turning in to MOH.

In my opinion this falls more on the judge if a card is turned in that is not properly marked. Even though it is each handlers responsibility to verify their score some of the younger folks haven't a clue about the score or the rules. They are their just to see how their hound matches up against other hounds. If I was judge of a cast and a card got thrown out because I didn't put a plus or minus I would feel horrible. Whether it was a grown man or young boy that won the cast I wouldn't blame them I would blame myself.

Also if a dog is scratched for this rule it should scratch the whole cast in my opinion. When signing the card it should be to verify the complete card is correct not just your score. This would eliminate the cheating aspect of this stupid rule.

This rule needs to be fixed.

PS: It takes a special type person to purposely leave off a scoring mark so that the cast winning dog gets scratched and the next in line gets the win. Barred for life when caught!

Posted by J I Allen on 03-08-2017 08:38 PM:

I'm in 4 coon clubs and I'm not a MOH but I have been the HD in all of them one time or another and this is how I handle this. When the cast comes back before they hand me the card I ask them if all scores have a plus, minus or delete before they give me the card. They always step back open the card and check. If this is illegal and the UKC wants to ban me for that make it for life, I've got plenty of things to do on a Friday or Saturday night besides sitting in a club house until 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning.

Posted by msinc on 03-08-2017 10:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
Most times on a question they are around. just bringing it back, hardly ever is anyone but the one who returns the card to you around. Thing is, it matters not until the rules are changed. I can not and will not pick the ones to enforce and not. my MOH test didn't allow me to make that decision.

I totally agree...and as far as the test goes neither did mine and it hasn't changed since I took it in 1987.

Posted by Robert Johnson on 03-09-2017 04:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by J I Allen
I'm in 4 coon clubs and I'm not a MOH but I have been the HD in all of them one time or another and this is how I handle this. When the cast comes back before they hand me the card I ask them if all scores have a plus, minus or delete before they give me the card. They always step back open the card and check. If this is illegal and the UKC wants to ban me for that make it for life, I've got plenty of things to do on a Friday or Saturday night besides sitting in a club house until 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning.

That's not illegal and is a good idea. I think I might try that approach myself, if I can just remember to do it. Most of the larger events I do, I have several cards stacked up waiting on review, but that is a good idea. Thanks.

PS: Why on earth would we want to bar you? Differences in opinion are good for the sport, as long as we don't let them get personal.

Posted by Robert Johnson on 03-09-2017 04:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Max LeBleu
This is not a MOH issue. They have a job to do and a rule book to follow no matter how stupid the rule may be.

UKC should change this rule since it has no relevance on which dog done the best job that night at running and treeing a coon. All it does is punish someone for not catching a mistake on the card prior to turning in to MOH.

In my opinion this falls more on the judge if a card is turned in that is not properly marked. Even though it is each handlers responsibility to verify their score some of the younger folks haven't a clue about the score or the rules. They are their just to see how their hound matches up against other hounds. If I was judge of a cast and a card got thrown out because I didn't put a plus or minus I would feel horrible. Whether it was a grown man or young boy that won the cast I wouldn't blame them I would blame myself.

I agree on the purposely leaving off the value and barring for life, but on the whole cast being scratched, why? I know most handlers are probably not looking past their own dogs score before they sign the card, and for the most part, that's what they are saying is correct. I don't see punishing a dog who did their part right, and that includes handler, just because one didn't. Lets reverse this thing a little. Lets say we find an error in the 4th place dog's scoring, no plus on last tree. should we scratch the real winner and all others because of that? Kind of the same thing isn't it?
Also if a dog is scratched for this rule it should scratch the whole cast in my opinion. When signing the card it should be to verify the complete card is correct not just your score. This would eliminate the cheating aspect of this stupid rule.

This rule needs to be fixed.

PS: It takes a special type person to purposely leave off a scoring mark so that the cast winning dog gets scratched and the next in line gets the win. Barred for life when caught!

Posted by Max LeBleu on 03-09-2017 09:37 PM:

We will have to agree to disagree on that one Rock. The whole cast should be verifying the "winning" score. Who cares about 2nd, 3rd and 4th. Why in the world would the 4th place dog in a cast sign a card verifying his score? This rule is setup up in a way for someone to cheat.
As MOH do you scratch the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th place dog if their score is not marked correctly?

I'm all for following the rules but when you have a rule that is just plain ridiculous the people with clout as yourself should work toward getting the rule changed.

Posted by J I Allen on 03-09-2017 10:18 PM:

Max, why would the 4th place person on a cast sign the score sheet, that's called sportsmanship.

Posted by Max LeBleu on 03-09-2017 10:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by J I Allen
Max, why would the 4th place person on a cast sign the score sheet, that's called sportsmanship.

I think you are missing the point. Sure everyone signs the card but why verify 4th place score and not the winning score.

I'm not bashing anyone or in no way promoting unsportsmanlike conduct. Not sure how we got to that.

I am however saying this rule really needs to be addressed.

With all this being said I have personally never seen anyone scratched for this.

Posted by J I Allen on 03-09-2017 10:54 PM:

Max, last year or the year before, since I'm old I can't remember which year, but a score came in and cast winner hadn't checked all the plus, minus etc. He would have been high scoring dog of hunt and would have won a top storage box a new light and dog feed. All the totals were correct on the sheet except for one plus mark, yet the MOH could not correct that, even in front of the entire cast.

Posted by msinc on 03-09-2017 11:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Max LeBleu
I think you are missing the point. Sure everyone signs the card but why verify 4th place score and not the winning score.......

Because it's not a winning score until every one else in the cast is either scratched or verifies with their signature that they agree to it.

Posted by mike fleming on 03-10-2017 12:57 AM:

It is read out loud by the Master of Hounds before every hunt that you must do this or YOU WILL GET SCRATCHED.I don't see what the problem is you are warned before you go to the woods.Its no different then being told if you drink and drive you will go to jail then getting pulled over and telling the patrolman I forgot to stop drinking.Its not the patrolmans fault you went to jail.

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Posted by shadinc on 03-10-2017 02:41 AM:

Well, I'm not much of a competition hunter but if I ever have enough points to win a hunt, the cards gonna be perfect before the MOH sees it if I have to hire a CPA.

Posted by J I Allen on 03-10-2017 03:39 AM:

Once upon a time you had to keep the time to the minute and this was when you had 3 hour hunts, now your signing the scorecard means you hunted for the entire 2 hours. In that same section in the rules 13 Scorescards (b) handlers signature VERIFIES hunting time and SCORES ARE CORRECT. Why have a rule that states that with your signature all scores are correct if you're going to get scratched for failing to put a plus or minus on the scorecard.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-10-2017 02:21 PM:

Oh my goodness, how hard can it be? When you sign the card, you look to make sure every call that you made has a plus, minus or circle by it. That is the only thing that you have to do. It isn't like there are several things to remember. There is only one and it is very very important. I mean, you can't get a win without it. Do you forget to strike your dog when he opens? Do you forget to tree your dog? And the MOH doesn't even have to remind you at the start of the hunt.
Maybe if everyone just quit griping about what a bad rule it is and how it should be changed and started talking about how important it is, then people would remember to check their scores.
Maybe we should be teaching young first time hunters that they absolutely cannot win unless they check their score..... no exceptions. Then it is their fault if they don't. People need to start taking ownership of their actions and quit blaming the rules or others for their mistakes.

Posted by yadkintar on 03-10-2017 03:29 PM:

Lmbo!!

Posted by J I Allen on 03-10-2017 04:10 PM:

Scratch, scratch, scratch, minus, minus, I'll bet all of the people on here that want to scratch everyone for any reason they can because that's the rule, are the one's that on the way home from a late hunt about 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning so sleepy they can't hold there eyes open, speeding and cross the center line and have a highway patrolman stop them, when he offers to let them go without a ticket, tell the trooper that he has to write a ticket because that's the rules and they have to be followed, no exceptions. Because you learned the rules in drivers education and they must followed.

Posted by yadkintar on 03-10-2017 04:16 PM:

Guys rock gave us a way out y'all didn't listen tell them before the hunt and right before they turn the card in tell them again simple as that. Then vote ole tar in on the voting committee in two years I will shake up the world lol.

Posted by J I Allen on 03-10-2017 07:11 PM:

Tar, I'm the one that tells everyone to check that card before they give it to me. UKC is a lot like Nascar, they don't really have a clue why hunt attendance is down. When you only have 4,5 or 6 dogs show for UKC or $KC hunt and a pound hunt a dog supply store has 50 apparently you have a product people don't have any faith in. When trees are circled with a hole that you couldn't put a golf ball through with a 20 pound sledgehammer calling it a den tree, walking the last 15 minutes of the hunt out on the way back to the truck, 3 dog cast and you score a tree in the last minutes of the hunt and the other two handlers go blind, calling time out on the way to the tree because it's steep, which will give you more drops than the other cast that hunts on flat ground, I could go on but I think you see what I mean. I know it's not possible, but only non hunting judges should carry a scorecard. I've always thought club members holding the hunt shouldn't hunt but serve as guides and judges and when you went to another club they did the same thing.

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