UKC Forums - Grand Nite Ch's in a Nite Ch cast ???

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-- Grand Nite Ch's in a Nite Ch cast ??? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928451726)

Posted by shorecooner on 05-18-2016 07:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jeffrey robinso
I wasn't there and my friend doesn't get on the computer and I am not taking either side because I don't have a dog in this fight but I am hearing a lot of different stories and just saying if you are going to tell something make sure you tell it all.

I know both of the other owners are following this thread very closely. As are many others. All they have to do is sign in and say their piece if they'd like to go ahead and push it a little farther.

Good day.

__________________
Josh Daniels

Posted by muleman232 on 05-19-2016 10:42 PM:

Josh Daniels

Several years ago I saw a thread on here . A young guy wanted to hunt dogs for people . It was Josh Daniels . I took him a dog . He kept me updated and did what he said he would . I ended up taking him two dogs . I called to get him to hunt another dog for me but he was to busy with work . He is a straight shooter who did what he said he would . I felt that I should speak on his character .

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Scott Little 304-676-1622 cell

Posted by shorecooner on 05-19-2016 11:54 PM:

Thanks Scott, it was a pleasure meeting you and hunting dogs for you. Hope we can get in the woods together soon.

__________________
Josh Daniels

Posted by Clif Owen on 05-23-2016 01:52 AM:

Gents..here is another angle not mentioned yet about dogs that have "finished". I remember a guy buying a young dog..about 14 months old that had 5 Nite Ch. win slips. However, he was NOT a Gr. Nite Ch. Why?? One of the wins was tossed out because of the MOH's license not being current or something like that. It's been like 26 or 27 years so I'm not positive.
My point is this: Just because they have the slips doesn't mean it's a done deal.

Posted by Clif Owen on 05-23-2016 01:53 AM:

Not saying that's the case here at all. It just provides a different angle.

Posted by The Original on 05-23-2016 07:28 AM:

My opinion, take it or leave it.

A dog does not have a title until UKC processes all the wins. Many times have clubs not sent in their paperwork therefore causing a dog to hunt/show or trial in the wrong category (class if you will). If I believe I made my dog NITECH last night, but ukc never records the win (for whatever reason) and so the next few weekend I go to events and enter him as said NITECH and earn his GRNITECH degree, but he never officially made NITECH, then I'm out (easily) $100 just in entries and I'm going to have to do it all over again.

__________________
I do not fear the man with many dogs. The one
to watch out for is the man with only one.

Posted by Dave Richards on 05-23-2016 05:19 PM:

The Original

I agree with the example you have cited above. However, the incident listed by Josh is a different story- dog/s had 4 UKC nite champion wins and both dogs won their 5 nite champion win that week. UKC did not have the paperwork but both individuals were aware of their dogs status and still choose to enter dog/,s in Night Champion Class. Was this the right thing too do? Think what you want but the answer based on an honor system is a definite NO! Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Posted by The Original on 05-23-2016 05:33 PM:

I agree, it's not HONORABLE however, the dog is not officially a GRNITECH. What if the club that he got the 5th win at did not send it in? Imo once a dog titles, if you want to be 100% sure you are entering the correct class then you cannot enter an event until ukc confirms the dog has titled, or not...

I had one that had 7 NITECH wins by the time he titled. 2 different times his win did not get recorded at UKC and they would not accept my wins slips as proof. It is what it is, my dog would have finished at 14 months if they would have either been sent in or recorded, whatever happened doesn't matter. It happens more often than you'd like to admit.

__________________
I do not fear the man with many dogs. The one
to watch out for is the man with only one.

Posted by harleydan1956 on 05-24-2016 12:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by howie
Pretty sure fighting is not up for a vote. This is judge decision if he seen who the aggressor was.

If you look up advisor on this website and 4/16 posted, it states what can be voted on and what can't. They can ask to question mark it, but there is no cast vote. As far as entering in a lower class, pretty sure till UKC confirms title is made, it it not moved up yet. If you enter your dog in a nite Ch cast cause you got 3 first places wins and win that one, but a club doesn't send in your paperwork for one of your first places, that nite Ch win doesn't count... IMO...

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(Dutch wasn't ours, but he was here and like one of the family)

Pr. Dan's little Porter.... my last beagle...

Posted by JiM on 05-24-2016 01:57 AM:

Anything can be put to a cast vote when hunting under a hunting judge. Anything can be questioned to the MOH when hunting under a non-hunting judge.

__________________
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PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
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Posted by Allen / UKC on 05-24-2016 08:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by harleydan1956
If you look up advisor on this website and 4/16 posted, it states what can be voted on and what can't. They can ask to question mark it, but there is no cast vote.

Dan, I think you are misunderstanding that article. Probably my fault that I didn't go more in-depth. That article talks about the three things that "automatically go to a cast vote". That means the hunting judge would not make the call but vote along with every member of the cast.

Beyond that however, the hunting judge makes the calls. That does not mean that the hunting judge's calls can't be questioned and voted on, because they certainly can. Any one of them.

That article is about the idea that all cast members are judges and everything should go to a vote. It goes on to give the three specific items that automatically go to a cast vote but then THE judge makes the rest of the calls. This is where it should have been added that those calls may be questioned and voted on if someone doesn't agree with the call made.

Does that clarify it better?

Posted by yadkintar on 05-24-2016 09:42 PM:

I still don't understand.

Posted by Pat Bizich on 05-29-2016 12:33 AM:

So a three dog cast.Two dogs are balled up fighting.Judge says both dogs are scratched.Of course the handlers of the two dogs don't want their dog scratched,especially the one that is winning the cast.
They vote to over rule [majority vote] and neither one gets scratched?? Yeah right???LOL
Not on my watch.We WILL BE GOING BACK TO THE MOH.
Only way they are getting out of it is by lying and saying they never saw a fight.

BY the way the ADVISOR page 59 does say dogs MUST be scratched ."THERE IS NO OPTION WITHIN THE RULES NOT TO SCRATCH DOGS FOR FIGHTING!!!!"
To me that includes a cast vote over ruling.

Page 134 further states when it comes to scratching a dog for any reason,including fighting, it is up to the decision of the hunting judge..Okay argue the cast vote to over rule.Then I am going to argue page 59 interpretation.

To me the only legitimate arguments would be if one dog was the obvious aggressor and the judge was wanting to scratch both dogs.
Or we got a crooked judge looking for a reason to kick the competition out of the cast and both handlers can agree to the fact there was never an actual fight.

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Posted by howie on 05-29-2016 03:14 AM:

Judge is first to tree and seen the aggressor. Judges scratches the aggressor. The gentleman with the dog that judge scratches wants a vote. Rest of cast votes to scratch both dogs. Now how in the world can this be a cast vote. Rules say judge to be first to the tree and also says dogs fighting you should scratch the aggressor when known. I can see the dog that scratched wanting to question the call. If he does question call you go back to the MH. The master hound has hand picked his judge do to being honest and knowing the nite hunt rules. Me being a master hound I'm going with my judge. And if you run into one of those rare occasion where judge and master hound are crooked you just take your lick and try again next time. JMO

Posted by shorecooner on 06-03-2016 03:10 AM:

Congrats JD!

__________________
Josh Daniels

Posted by JiM on 06-03-2016 02:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by howie
Judge is first to tree and seen the aggressor. Judges scratches the aggressor. The gentleman with the dog that judge scratches wants a vote. Rest of cast votes to scratch both dogs. Now how in the world can this be a cast vote. Rules say judge to be first to the tree and also says dogs fighting you should scratch the aggressor when known. I can see the dog that scratched wanting to question the call. If he does question call you go back to the MH. The master hound has hand picked his judge do to being honest and knowing the nite hunt rules. Me being a master hound I'm going with my judge. And if you run into one of those rare occasion where judge and master hound are crooked you just take your lick and try again next time. JMO

Howie, there is a darn good reason why a cast vote can overrule any hunting judge on any call. The judge HAS A DOG IN THE HUNT! You really want a judge, who has a dog competing against the other cast members dogs, to have the final say on who is scratched and who isn't? I sure don't!
And any MOH who just automatically sides with the judge should just turn in his license because that is a MOH who is unwilling to do his job. That MOH is suppose to hear and give fair consideration to all sides of the argument, consider the testimony and render a fair decision. There is nothing fair about just automatically going with the judge when that judge is trying to win the cast.

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