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Posted by sox12 on 02-17-2016 10:27 PM:

I have a 12 week old puppy treeing barn cats,what would you call her besides a cat treer,would she be a natural instinct or what.inqureing minds wants to no?

George

Posted by mmarshall on 02-18-2016 06:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by sox12
I have a 12 week old puppy treeing barn cats,what would you call her besides a cat treer,would she be a natural instinct or what.inqureing minds wants to no?

George

My wife's Yorkie has done the same since he was 3,4 months old he's 11 now and still does it but by sight only he won't track them down or go looking for them but he will make them climb if he sees one close to the house lol
Soon as it gos out of sight he's done
My point is if you are breeding for natural early starts why do we teach them to track and tree before we start them
Pup 1 So if I spend a month using any method I can find to get my dog to track and tree coon sent at 6 months old take him at night 5 times till he trees me a coon alone early starter right ?
Pup 2 I take a pup out at 7 months it trees its own coon in 7 nights alone early starter right ?
Witch one was a natural both ?
Imo pup 1 would of started early enuff with out the month but again maybe not natures corse was changed in thirty days of training in good hands it got what it would of taken 60 70 nights of real hunting to get that much exposure
Imo there is way to much training for early starters not enuff into the breeding of them because of the demand for early starters
Is there coming a time When one prices a pup to a man and he ask you to come down on the price because he can't afford to pay that price and pay a puppy trainer ?
Imo We should be breeding natural starting in them not easy training

__________________
mark marshall

favorits ive hunted and or owned
grnt nighty nite moonlight kate rip
grnt moonlight pepper ann
Grnt jackpot Jackie rip
grnt rocky top jet
ntch moonlight katie rip
ntch moonlight madona
ntch beaver creek blaze rip
ntch moonlights dirty danny b.rip (ntch moonlight kink x ntch sawblade reckon)
Current
Grnt moonlight ky Kate (grnt ranger x grnt moonlight Kate
Ntch Pr beaver creeks easy peezy three 1st place wins (jet x moonlight Bree)
Pr beaver creeks moonlight coon buster ( moonlight shock x moonlight Bree)

Posted by mmarshall on 02-18-2016 06:15 PM:

Kelly yes I've had five start like that ones that lived to have pups reproduced very very well it's just another peace of the puzzle we need to look at

Posted by Corey Gruver on 02-18-2016 06:55 PM:

Very interesting area of discussion. I like it.

One question that I have as a young man with not as much collective experience as say Mr. Marshall or Mr. Hyde, is there a time span in which natural ability must be brought out of a pup before it goes away??

I guess the best way for me to elaborate on my question would be through an example.

Say you have a young puppy at six months of age that you take to the woods for the first time, and it runs and trees a coon all on its lonesome... That puppy would be considered a "natural", right?

If that is "natural ability", shouldn't the same pup under different circumstances still be able to run and tree a coon?

Lets say that pup never gets taken to the woods until it is 2... 3... or 4 years of age. It is still genetically identical to the pup from the first example, with the same lack of experience. We should expect that older version of the pup to do the same thing and run and tree a coon, should we not?

At the end of the day, is "natural ability" more or less a stepping stone that leads to training and refining, or a bypass through the extended process of training itself?

While I agree that natural ability is a beautiful objective for breeders of high class, competition style hounds to strive for, I wonder if it is only a small piece of a very large puzzle? What does everyone else think? I surely do not know the answer to the question I am posing, that's why I am asking What are some thoughts?

__________________
Corey Gruver
Greenville, PA
(724) 456-6813

Posted by sox12 on 02-18-2016 07:07 PM:

I didn't teach the pup anything,she done it on her own,the pup tracked it and treed it the pup is looking upon her own,does she have natural ability or not,you are skipping around the question,would she do the same on a coon when she gets older and take her to the woods,or have to spend months teaching her,i want to her from the brains out there on there expertise on dogs this young man want to know.

George

Posted by mmarshall on 02-18-2016 07:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by sox12
I didn't teach the pup anything,she done it on her own,the pup tracked it and treed it the pup is looking upon her own,does she have natural ability or not,you are skipping around the question,would she do the same on a coon when she gets older and take her to the woods,or have to spend months teaching her,i want to her from the brains out there on there expertise on dogs this young man want to know.

George

Not skipping around your ? George I don't have a answer for it I don't know I can only guess that it does or don't I'd guess yes
I gave you the only experience I had with a pup treeing a cat but I bet with some work with my help he would of got a lot better at it naturally he did not
But he was not bred to
Hope that helps

Posted by Sawblade on 02-18-2016 07:55 PM:

Corey

If a person waits until a dog is 2 years old or 3 or 4 until they take it hunting. You must realize that dog has been trained during that time to do something else, like set on a chain and wait to be fed. It would take some time to untrain even a natural if indeed the dog spends that much time being trained to do nothing.

__________________
Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,

They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

Posted by mmarshall on 02-18-2016 07:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Corey/UKC
Very interesting area of discussion. I like it.

One question that I have as a young man with not as much collective experience as say Mr. Marshall or Mr. Hyde, is there a time span in which natural ability must be brought out of a pup before it goes away??

I guess the best way for me to elaborate on my question would be through an example.

Say you have a young puppy at six months of age that you take to the woods for the first time, and it runs and trees a coon all on its lonesome... That puppy would be considered a "natural", right?

If that is "natural ability", shouldn't the same pup under different circumstances still be able to run and tree a coon?

Lets say that pup never gets taken to the woods until it is 2... 3... or 4 years of age. It is still genetically identical to the pup from the first example, with the same lack of experience. We should expect that older version of the pup to do the same thing and run and tree a coon, should we not?

At the end of the day, is "natural ability" more or less a stepping stone that leads to training and refining, or a bypass through the extended process of training itself?

While I agree that natural ability is a beautiful objective for breeders of high class, competition style hounds to strive for, I wonder if it is only a small piece of a very large puzzle? What does everyone else think? I surely do not know the answer to the question I am posing, that's why I am asking What are some thoughts?

Cory don't think it would mater if they was 3-4 years old again never did it be guessing
Do know the old the faster they go from A to Z
My blaze female started her second night second drop ever at 13 months at 18 months she was close to peaking out A to X I'd say but she never missed a night of hunting in that time
If I had her at and hunted her and she started at 6 months she would of not been that far at 10 months one I would not hunt one that young that hard to
mentally to much info for a young dog imo

Posted by Wade Kuhns on 02-18-2016 08:45 PM:

I've never owned a complete natural.Over the last 35 years of raising coonhounds and being around my family and friends and seeing 100s of pups I've never seen a complete natural,start to finish..Do I believe in breeding for a better dog,heck yea! Yes I believe certain lines have some natural set traits that can be counted on to come out without much trouble as the pup matures.My personal experience with familiarizing a young pup with coon tails,hides and eventually a coon in a cage and turn loose coon all add to the confidence of the pup.It also makes breaking a pup off of off game much easier when I actually take them to the woods.If they are hunting a coon and I did my job and took them where coon are ,deer will not be on the pups menu as bad ,and I can easily break his natural want to chase the deer or all the other junk out there.I just feel a good training program is needed to consistently bring out the traits a breeder has bred for.So what would win, a well trained dog or a dog that is let do what comes natural to it.

Posted by mmarshall on 02-18-2016 10:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Wade Kuhns
I've never owned a complete natural.Over the last 35 years of raising coonhounds and being around my family and friends and seeing 100s of pups I've never seen a complete natural,start to finish..Do I believe in breeding for a better dog,heck yea! Yes I believe certain lines have some natural set traits that can be counted on to come out without much trouble as the pup matures.My personal experience with familiarizing a young pup with coon tails,hides and eventually a coon in a cage and turn loose coon all add to the confidence of the pup.It also makes breaking a pup off of off game much easier when I actually take them to the woods.If they are hunting a coon and I did my job and took them where coon are ,deer will not be on the pups menu as bad ,and I can easily break his natural want to chase the deer or all the other junk out there.I just feel a good training program is needed to consistently bring out the traits a breeder has bred for.So what would win, a well trained dog or a dog that is let do what comes natural to it.

Me as well wade have never seen one go from A to Z with out correction ever
If we are breeding for natural early starting coonhounds why are we training them so they will start early how do we know if we succeeded in that goal as a breeder if we're training them to do what we want naturally
As for witch would win you got me can some one teach one to run faster strike faster locate faster ? That's out of my leage I would think that would need to be natural talent
But a natural has a better chance to pass on a natural ability then one its taught
I'm just talking natural Instinct to find track and tree game lol

No right or wrongs here just opinions

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-18-2016 11:49 PM:

There are different degrees of natural ability...
When I talk about a natural I mean a dog who starts doing something without ever being "taught" or "trained" to do it....like putting its nose to the ground and opening on a track and moving it along. Like trailing a track to a tree and smelling up it and barking like it actually knows there is something up there even though it cannot see it. Like taking a pup for a walk and seeing it check trees and find one with some scent and it starts whining and or barking. If you have never shown this pup an animal skin or cage coon and it just does these things when you take it to the woods...then you have a pup with natural ability.
Same goes for desire to hunt and range out on its own at a young age. If you take a pup to the woods at 6-8 months before its ever been shown a coon or skin and it wonders out of your sight exploring and looking for something...that is natural and not man made like one who has been switched and made to go and get out of your sight.
Not all pups are naturals in every area....very few are in all three of the examples I named above at a young age. Id say the natural treeing instinct is what I see the most dominant in the lines I breed and hunt, followed by natural tracking instinct and then by natural drive to hunt alone at an early age.
Now every one of these things will get better as the pup gains experience and confidence...but if it has any of these at a young age it will progress much faster than those who dont.
I want to elaborate on some of my earlier points I made in this thread about training. As I said, I like for a pup to start as naturally as possible on its own without props and peer pressure from other dogs. There is a very important reason why that I want to make sure everyone understands.
Part of it is because as that pup starts...thats my single best chance in its life for me to judge that dogs level of natural ability before it starts getting influenced by me as the trainer and other outside influences like other dogs.
Then the second reason is because when a dog does naturally what its hopefully been bred to do...it teaches itself and gains confidence much faster...AND...there is very little chance of the young dog learning an unintentional bad habit while it is also learning what I want it to learn.
So in other words...there is little chance of collateral damage.
I touched on a few things I consider collateral damage earlier in this thread.
Some of those things stem from the premis that most trainers think the goal for every young dog is to get it to tree....regardless of how or why ...just get it treeing!
I never have and never will have that as a goal with a pup or young dog.
Some trainers live by the addage..."the end justifies the means"....but they never look far enough out to actually see the real end ...because to them...the end is once they have that pup treeing consistently.
Well, many in the walker breed fell for this sort of thing and even bred to dogs that were extremely easy to get treeing...and now they struggle with it in the entire breed with accuracy problems.
A dog treeing should never be the end goal...the end goal should be to have a dog that trails and then trees without needing any help from any other dog and then has a coon almost every time when you get to it.
Why are dogs like this pretty rare? Well, i think the way they are started and trained may be a big part of the reason. Too many people put too much emphasis on a dog getting treed, right or wrong....and that leads to problems later.
Lets look at a common practice in starting pups these days.
The cage coon, day time, running with a pack method. There are lots of these starting pens and operations all over the country. They usually work like this..
Go hang a cage coon in a tree out in the woods behind the house and go back and turn several pups loose with an older dog who has played this game hundreds of times. This older dog may even have the same three trees the trainer always uses memorized and may just run straight to each one until it looks up and sees the coon and starts treeing on it. Now here come the pups to see what the excitement is about. Canines have been pack animals for millions of years so some of that pull is still there to follow the leader of the pack. So they get there and then the trainer comes and whoops em up and pets them and takes pictures and thinks that since they are treeing...he has done his job well.
Ok, ask yourself this....why are they treeing? Is it because they trailed that coons scent all the way to that tree and then even after that old dog who treed first has jumped all up and down and rubbed what little scent a cage coon can actually deposit on the bark of a tree through the cage...that this pup can actually still smell that coon scent enough to be sure that coon is there and trees on it?
Or...
Is it more likely that it felt the peer pressure from hearing another dog or pack of dogs barking over there and ran straight there and then just started doing what it sees the rest of the pack doing?
Because if its the latter...for that trainer to keep repeating this scenerio (even if he uses different trees) he is not only teaching the dog to tree...but a whole host of other bad things that I earlier referred to as collateral damage.
Like following the leader, running to the sound of other dogs trailing or treeing,treeing by sight, or worse yet, treeing just because of peer pressure from the rest of the pack treeing, treeing without even really smelling much if any scent on that tree...just because it knows it will get praised and or a mouth full of fur when the trainer comes to the tree. After a few times of this...the pups just start running to the same three trees the trainer uses and looking up to see if there is a cage coon up there and the the trainer may tell the owner...your pup is showing leadership qualities...today he beat the rest of the pack to the tree by a long ways!
These are all bad things...things that if this scenerio is repeated several times a week, week after week for even one month or maybe two months (the normal time most pay pup starters)...these things will be burned into their brains and become habit.... And trust me...with dogs, habits are hard to break!
See, most see this going on and say hey, whatever it takes to get a pup treeing has to be good...right?
But I see this happening and think OMG....very few if any of those tree monsters will ever make an independent, accurate coon dog that will go on to win big in competition because most will never be able to break those habits and overcome what they were "taught" in those early vital months when they were exposed to all that peer pressure and outside influence from the way these almost always well meaning people attemp to start pups.
Only a few, and I mean a very few...of exceptional natural ability will be able to shake off that influence and bad habits to go on to become their own dog that will not be influenced by other dogs later in life.
Stop and think about what you want in a dog when its finished....now think about how big a mistake it is to fall into that "the most important thing is to get em treeing young" trap that sets back so many pups each and every year.
Look, it takes an independent, self motivated, confident dog with above average ability to win more than lose in competition these days.
The bottom line is, as a breed we are producing lots of pups each year that should go on to make these type dogs...but how many are forever locked into bad habits early in life that they will never fully be able to shake and reach their full potential?
How we start our pups matters! Just like the early development of our children can make a huge difference later in their lives and influence how they are as adults.
If we want to make sure that every pup we produce that has the right stuff on the inside...reaches its full potential so that all of that comes to the surface...we have to do a better job of starting our pups right.
Its not rocket science and there are no big secrets...its all about doing the right things while being careful not to do any of the wrong things...even if unintentional...
Good luck to everyone and their pups!

__________________
Shane Maxey
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Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
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Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
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Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
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Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
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Posted by Wade Kuhns on 02-19-2016 01:34 AM:

Got a couple questions for anyone that has ever had first pick of a litter of pups.If you turned an 8 week old litter of pups loose and had a coon in a box trap behind the shed about 100 yards from the pups,and one of those pups put it's head in the air and went to that coon by its self and started barking at it,what pup would you pick out of that litter? How about the same litter,you put a coon tail out of their reach ,they all try to get it for awhile then all but one forget about it and go about their business.The one pup just stays there looking at the tail and won't leave.What pup would you pick?Same litter,turn them loose,and two are gone,you have to go find them.I know what pups I'd pick in all cases.There are other scenarios that I've seen happen too.I've set litters up to see the very earliest glimmers of traits I've been looking for.Believe it or not ,you might miss out on good breeding stock by not paying attention to pups when they are real young. I think early starters start early because they just can't help themselves.Reguardless of why they start early ,an early starter is going to get alot more attention from its owner than one that won't do anything.In most cases they will be given a way better chance to succeed just because the owner will be excited and wanting to show off the progression of his pup.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-19-2016 02:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Wade Kuhns
Got a couple questions for anyone that has ever had first pick of a litter of pups.If you turned an 8 week old litter of pups loose and had a coon in a box trap behind the shed about 100 yards from the pups,and one of those pups put it's head in the air and went to that coon by its self and started barking at it,what pup would you pick out of that litter? How about the same litter,you put a coon tail out of their reach ,they all try to get it for awhile then all but one forget about it and go about their business.The one pup just stays there looking at the tail and won't leave.What pup would you pick?Same litter,turn them loose,and two are gone,you have to go find them.I know what pups I'd pick in all cases.There are other scenarios that I've seen happen too.I've set litters up to see the very earliest glimmers of traits I've been looking for.Believe it or not ,you might miss out on good breeding stock by not paying attention to pups when they are real young. I think early starters start early because they just can't help themselves.Reguardless of why they start early ,an early starter is going to get alot more attention from its owner than one that won't do anything.In most cases they will be given a way better chance to succeed just because the owner will be excited and wanting to show off the progression of his pup.

Thats kind of the point i was trying to make.
As a breeder...i always want to give that pup a chance to show any natural ability it has ...before...its influenced or pressured into anything. Not that some dogs with some brains and a lot of heart but only a moderate amount of natural ability cant learn enough to become a good coon dog...because ive seen that happen with a lot of work on the owners part.
But I like to see natural ability in pups because to me that is one box I can check off as to whether this pup may qualify as breeder stock in my program.
I dont care how good a man made dog is when its finished...thats not what i am looking for to breed and get pups from. If most folks are careful and smart about how they start and train a pup...almost anyone can start and finish a natural...but it takes a heck of a trainer and a lot of patience to man make a dog that lacked a good amount of natural ability...and chances are thats the same kind it will produce. So as a breed...we need to take natural ability seriously and make it a top priority in our future crosses...more so than looks, and even more so than even a big win record...because we all know that big winners all too often do not reproduce the same...and a lack of real natural ability from birth may be the reason why...

Posted by Red Fever on 02-19-2016 04:02 AM:

I'll try to keep it short. Aubrey's been raising, training, and coon hunting hounds for 27 years. There has been a lot of trial and error over the years. His passion truly is harvesting coon in the fall, but he is not a social hunter, he has always hunted mostly by himself, even as a kid. Aubrey is always working on a young dog, so if you get too many dogs in there, things can get out of control. In the last 12 years he has taken up comp hunting, field trialing, water racing, etc. There has been some trial and error there too, but we have found how we like to train, and what we like to breed to keep us competitive in those avenues as well.

We don't do too much with drags anymore. Aubrey has on occasion in the past, but he really just doesn't have time for it anymore. A little bit is fine as long as you do it correctly, and never overdo it. It will tell you a few things about the pup/pups, or it tells us a few things anyway. He will show the young dog (no younger than 6 months) a cage coon or 2 before he takes them to the woods at night. I won't elaborate how he does this on here, but I will tell you he DOES NOT hang it in a tree. We never work a dog on the tree, if they have the tree it will come out naturally. The reason he shows it a coon or 2 beforehand is to #1, let us know that it is mentally mature enough for the woods, and #2 we're looking for a few specific traits in our dogs, and this tends to show us that. When we feel they're ready for the woods at night, we take them with the older, trash free dogs. Aubrey doesn't single them out until they've had at least 1 kill season on them, sometimes it's not until a month or 2 before he's ready to comp hunt them. Not saying that it wouldn't be better to do it earlier, maybe it would, but with our terrain, and the amount of time he has necessitates it to be this way. We've never had a problem with them wanting to hunt on their own, or being able to split tree and hold pressure. In fact, quite a few of them split tree very early on.....in our experience, independence is bred in them, it doesn't have to be trained that way. Rip for example was extremely independent, split treed consistently from the older dogs since he was 9 months old. Tater started split treeing at 6 months. Taterchips was split treeing at 10 months. Natural.

Aubrey and I have always said, what a dog shows you the first handful of nights to the woods, is what they will reproduce. Hunt drive, track speed, tree power. We agree that people should be focused on keeping the early, natural ones in their breeding program. Right now, we have 9 dogs out here that went hunting, ran track, and locked down treed in the 1st or 2nd night to the woods anywhere from 5 1/2- 11 months old. Everyone has their own criteria for their breeding programs....some go for titles, some for pedigree, some for big hunt winners, and on it goes. We breed for traits. Our motto is BREED NATURALS, HUNT NATURALS, REPRODUCE NATURALS.

We agree with Elvis " in my opinion it really don't matter how you start a pup. its just a matter of what works for you. a natural is gonna be easy and make you look good either way. "

Aubrey sold hides last week. These were his main dogs for season. All 5 of these females ran and treed their 1st or 2nd night to the woods, at 11 months old or younger.

left to right: GRNITECH GRFCH GRWCH GRCH Red Fever Gangsters Pair A Dice (Clyde x Bonnie), GRCH Red Fever Let Er Rip Taterchip (Tater x Dice), WCH FCH GRCH Red Fever Baby Likes To Rock (Rock x Star), NITECH GRCH FCH Red Fever Full of Mischief (Ox x Trouble), NITECH GRFCH GRCH WCH Red Fever Ain't Going Down (Ox x Shiloh)

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Posted by mmarshall on 02-19-2016 04:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Red Fever
I'll try to keep it short. Aubrey's been raising, training, and coon hunting hounds for 27 years. There has been a lot of trial and error over the years. His passion truly is harvesting coon in the fall, but he is not a social hunter, he has always hunted mostly by himself, even as a kid. Aubrey is always working on a young dog, so if you get too many dogs in there, things can get out of control. In the last 12 years he has taken up comp hunting, field trialing, water racing, etc. There has been some trial and error there too, but we have found how we like to train, and what we like to breed to keep us competitive in those avenues as well.

We don't do too much with drags anymore. Aubrey has on occasion in the past, but he really just doesn't have time for it anymore. A little bit is fine as long as you do it correctly, and never overdo it. It will tell you a few things about the pup/pups, or it tells us a few things anyway. He will show the young dog (no younger than 6 months) a cage coon or 2 before he takes them to the woods at night. I won't elaborate how he does this on here, but I will tell you he DOES NOT hang it in a tree. We never work a dog on the tree, if they have the tree it will come out naturally. The reason he shows it a coon or 2 beforehand is to #1, let us know that it is mentally mature enough for the woods, and #2 we're looking for a few specific traits in our dogs, and this tends to show us that. When we feel they're ready for the woods at night, we take them with the older, trash free dogs. Aubrey doesn't single them out until they've had at least 1 kill season on them, sometimes it's not until a month or 2 before he's ready to comp hunt them. Not saying that it wouldn't be better to do it earlier, maybe it would, but with our terrain, and the amount of time he has necessitates it to be this way. We've never had a problem with them wanting to hunt on their own, or being able to split tree and hold pressure. In fact, quite a few of them split tree very early on.....in our experience, independence is bred in them, it doesn't have to be trained that way. Rip for example was extremely independent, split treed consistently from the older dogs since he was 9 months old. Tater started split treeing at 6 months. Taterchips was split treeing at 10 months. Natural.

Aubrey and I have always said, what a dog shows you the first handful of nights to the woods, is what they will reproduce. Hunt drive, track speed, tree power. We agree that people should be focused on keeping the early, natural ones in their breeding program. Right now, we have 9 dogs out here that went hunting, ran track, and locked down treed in the 1st or 2nd night to the woods anywhere from 5 1/2- 11 months old. Everyone has their own criteria for their breeding programs....some go for titles, some for pedigree, some for big hunt winners, and on it goes. We breed for traits. Our motto is BREED NATURALS, HUNT NATURALS, REPRODUCE NATURALS.

We agree with Elvis " in my opinion it really don't matter how you start a pup. its just a matter of what works for you. a natural is gonna be easy and make you look good either way. "

Aubrey sold hides last week. These were his main dogs for season. All 5 of these females ran and treed their 1st or 2nd night to the woods, at 11 months old or younger.

left to right: GRNITECH GRFCH GRWCH GRCH Red Fever Gangsters Pair A Dice (Clyde x Bonnie), GRCH Red Fever Let Er Rip Taterchip (Tater x Dice), WCH FCH GRCH Red Fever Baby Likes To Rock (Rock x Star), NITECH GRCH FCH Red Fever Full of Mischief (Ox x Trouble), NITECH GRFCH GRCH WCH Red Fever Ain't Going Down (Ox x Shiloh)

I Like the less training and more hunting methods my self the more that they do in the real hunting conditions the more you know what came natural to the pup
And agree treeing should never need trained it should be natural and comes after a few real live tracks
The female I got from ya I call fever will be going to the woods some as the weather breaks 👍

Posted by ahallada on 02-19-2016 06:46 AM:

I think having a natural born coondog is a great thing and certainly takes the work out of training. Unfortunately it has very little impact on their ability to be a big hunt winner. It just gives them a head start and a better chance of ending up in the right hands. One of the best Redbones alive today didn't run and tree a coon until 17 months of age. A few months later that same dog just about made it into the final 4 of the UKC World Hunt and finished 7th overall. You just never know when that potential is going to come unleashed!

In my years of hunting and training pups, I've seen 3 pups run and tree coon at 3 - 5 months of age. The first was a Bluetick named Shine, and the other 2 were my Too the Max and Timber Shock. I have to admit it definitely has a wow factor to it just watching them in action. Shine was 3 months old and was a double Hammer 2 x Hammer 5 bred pup owned by my hunting partner at the time. The night I went with him there were about 7 spectators that drove a good distance to come watch him in action because they didn't believe it. He took off on a dead run with the older dogs and when we got to the tree he was treeing every breath with them. It was pretty impressive I'll have to say. He had a bright future, but was dead by the time he was a year of age after getting hit on the road.

I got Max from a breeding of my Timber Jack x Jenkin's Crying Katie after she won Redbone Days. Katie was a daughter of Little Man and she was the real deal. I was a senior in Veterinary School at the time, but was living in God's country on Lake Wisconsin near the Baraboo Bluffs. Max was built like a PitBull puppy and was super smart. He had one of the biggest mouths I'd ever heard on a pup. The first night I took Max hunting with Timber Jack, I just wanted him to get used to the woods and keep me company. He was between 3 and 4 months of age. TJ struck a track about 300 yards from where I cut him and ambushed a coon in a smaller tree. I sat there listening to him tree when I heard this other dog come on the tree. It sounded like a pup with his foot caught in a trap. I looked around and Max was gone. I ran into the tree to see what the commotion was and there was Max standing on the tree under TJ letting that coon have it loud and proud. I'll never forget that feeling of watching that pup stretched up on that tree under his daddy !

I got home late and called and woke Bill Wallock up to tell him what had happened. I told him I think we just found our next big winner. Butch Roeder hunted with Max a lot at around a year of age and told us that Max and his littermate brother were two of the most natural pups he ever hunted with at the time. Max ended up making a good name for himself and winning Redbone Days at an early age, but in my opinion, there was a lot left on the table and he didn't fulfill his true potential in the big hunts. That was one natural born coondog that should have won more on the big stage. He was a legit SS pup.

A couple years after Max and after training a bunch of pups, I got a male pup out of a repeat cross of Timber Jack x Key's Jesse. The first litter produced Gr.Nt.Ch. Gr.Ch. Outlaw Girl and Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Moon and I was really excited for this pup. I hunted with Moon and Girl when they were a year old and was blown away by their speed at such a young age. They were the fastest pups I had ever hunted with of any breed at that time. I knew they were both destined for great achievements and they both dominated the hunts and shows for the next 2 years. Lisa Key helped me pick him out and I named him Timber Shock.

I took Shock everywhere in the truck with me and people raved over what a good looking pup he was and how smart he was. I left him run loose on the farm until he was 5 months old until he started taking off and going hunting. I decided to take him along one night with my new dog I just bought, Bussrow Bottom Brandy II. I turned them loose together and Brandy got deep and treed by herself. I walked in and got her off the tree and was heading back to the truck when I heard Shock barking. He located a few times and then shut up. Next thing I know he is across a road running a track. I just sat in the truck and listened to him and he eventually came back across the road and treed in the same place he was locating before. I couldn't believe it. I hunted him by himself mostly after that and he spent an entire coon season with Bill Wallock on his own. Bill really liked him and couldn't believe the natural ability he had on track and tree. At 15 months of age he was as good as most 3 year olds in the hunts. He was the only dog I ever raised that literally trained himself and the only one that never had to be broke from off game.

After having pups like Max and Shock, it can spoil a person and put unrealistic expectations on training future pups. Neither of them measured up to the old man in competition, but they made their mark on this breed. I think that striving for a natural born coondog is a great thing, and can definitely help to produce baby stakes winners, but it has no bearing at all on the long term ability to win those big ones.

Know what you want, get the breeding that will give you the best chance of getting there, BE PATIENT, and enjoy the process along the way!

__________________
Dr. Allen Hallada (Doc Halladay)

Current:

PKC Ch. Gr.Nt.Ch. Cat Scratch Fever
(Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Moonlight Aftershock x Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Breanna)
2016 Finished to PKC Ch. in one week!

Dual Grand Champion CHKC Ch., PKC Gold Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man
(Gr.Nt.Ch.Glissens JJ Jr. x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Billy Jean)
4 Generations of All Grand Nite Champions!
Timber Jack 3X and Timber Chopper over 30X
2019 Southern National Redbone Days Champion
2016 National Grand Nite Champion Redbone
2016 CHKC Redbone Days Champion
2016 PKC Super Stakes Reserve Champion
2016 CHKC Elite Shootout Winner - Texas
CHKC All Time Money Winning Redbone

Bodacious
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Gr.Ch.PKC. Gold Ch.CHKC CH. Outlaw G-Man x Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. CHKC Ch., PKC Gold Ch. Classy Cali)

Past:
Gr.Nt.Ch.Ch. Dawns Timber Jack
1988 American Redbone Days All Red Hunt Winner
1989 UKC World Champion Redbone
1989 Purina Outstanding Redbone Coonhound
#2 Historic Redbone Sire/ Top 20 All Breeds
American Redbone Coonhound Assoc. Hall of Fame

Gr.Nt.Ch. Bussrow Bottom Brandy II
1991 American Redbone Days Champion
1992 AKC World Champion Redbone
1992 ACHA World Champion Redbone
1992 Wisconsin State Champion
1994 US Redbone Days Opposite Sex
Produced 2 Nt. Ch. , 1 Gr.Nt.Ch. out of 2 litters and two Redbone Days Winners

Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. PKC Gold Ch. Layton's Classy Cali
2012 UKC World Champion Redbone and 7th Place Overall
2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 UKC World Champion Redbone Female
2015 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Hunt Winner - Goodsprings, AL
2015 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Series Race - 3rd Place Overall
2016 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Hunt Winner - New Albany, MS
2016 PKC Texas State Race Winner
2016 PKC Redbone Breed Race Winner
PKC All Time Money Winning Redbone

PKC Ch. Gr.Nt.Ch. Coffman's Smokin Red Buck
2016 UKC World Hunt 5th Place and World Champion Redbone
2016 National Redbone Days Overall Winner

Gr.Nt.Ch. Reinhart's Central Page
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Brandy II)

Gr.Nt.Ch. Too the Maxx
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Jenkins Crying Katie)
1992 National Redbone Days Champion

Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. Ambraw River Rock
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. Hersh's Huntin Red Kate)
1992 US Redbone Days Opposite Sex

Nt.Ch. Tree Bustin Annabelle
1986 American Redbone Days All Red Hunt Winner

Nt.Ch. Timber Mace
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack X Nt.Ch. Tree Bustin Annabelle)
Mother of Gr.Nt.Ch. Babb's Hazel

Nt. Ch. Timber Shock
(Gr.Nt.Ch.Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Jessie)

Gr. Ch. Nt. Ch. Squaw Mountain Goldie
(Direct Daughter of Gr.Nt.Ch.Smokey Mountain Brandy)
1990 Autumn Oaks Best of Show Winner
1988 Indiana State Champion

Posted by Corey Gruver on 02-19-2016 01:23 PM:

Keep it coming guys this is all really good information!

I think fundamentally, we are all on the same page with this discussion of "natural ability". It really is good information for each of us to elaborate on in detail. At least for me it is, I always like to gain better insight on a topic by gathering bits and pieces of information from other well respected breeders to form a better understanding on whatever it is I'm trying to build my own knowledge upon.

I have to say that I am in agreement with Shane and a few others in the respect that pups that do display some sort of natural ability will encounter a particular degree of reinforcement through training and correction throughout its young life. That was some good, solid insight IMO.

I think a good question to ask while we are on the subject is, what are we as breeders going to do to better prepare perspective buyers / hunters of the pups that we breed, sell or raise for success?

I guess what I mean by that is, we can breed better and better stock for the future, and I think we are doing a pretty good job of that right now, but even if we breed the most natural puppies the world has ever seen, it takes competent trainers and handlers to recognize those abilities and refine them to bring them to the surface in a young prospect.

We can not guarantee that everyone that buys a puppy or a young dog may understand what "natural ability" looks like, especially new people to the sport or the breed. This kind of ties in with my original question, about whether or not there is a time frame or limit in which to bring out and refine natural ability in a pup or young dog.

So my question is, what are we going to do, besides breeding better genetics, to provide these people and puppies with the best opportunity for success? Is it our responsibility to do so, as breeders? Is this the bigger issue in the matter of "natural ability"? Am I staying on topic with this?

__________________
Corey Gruver
Greenville, PA
(724) 456-6813

Posted by Larry D Walker on 02-19-2016 02:07 PM:

JMO

There is no such thing as a natural born coondog,,if there was we would have no need for a trainer. Dogs are born with natural ability but they can not hone that ability standing in a kennel.. Early starters ==early maturity.
A pup that is born with natural abilty,the earlier he reaches maturity the earlier he starts. I suspect that there is a far greater number of natural born early starters that never get a chance to prove it.. then the ones that do..And also a lot of them never get a chance to reach thier full ability due to over training or over correcting...

Give the pup that is born with the natural ability his best chance to mature at his own rate and then do not over train or over correct and there will be a lot more early starting naturals..

A pup born with natural ability can not stand in a kennel until it is mature and go to the woods and be a coondog..wont work !!!!

Good Post Guys !!

__________________
Larry D Walker

Indiana

812-327-8224

Posted by Corey Gruver on 02-19-2016 02:53 PM:

Larry

That kind of raises another good point Larry. How much do you think a breeder's subjectivity plays a part in the whole process?

If your breeding program would be more benefited by having a male puppy with a particular pedigree succeed and become an accomplished coondog, might you forsake a female littermate sister that displays more natural ability then her brother during the selection process??

Is it possible for us to eliminate any sort of bias when selecting a puppy to be used for future breeding stock?

I know that this particular issue is something that I have been working very hard to corral over the last five years.

__________________
Corey Gruver
Greenville, PA
(724) 456-6813

Posted by mmarshall on 02-19-2016 03:08 PM:

Re: JMO

quote:
Originally posted by Larry D Walker
There is no such thing as a natural born coondog,,if there was we would have no need for a trainer. Dogs are born with natural ability but they can not hone that ability standing in a kennel.. Early starters ==early maturity.
A pup that is born with natural abilty,the earlier he reaches maturity the earlier he starts. I suspect that there is a far greater number of natural born early starters that never get a chance to prove it.. then the ones that do..And also a lot of them never get a chance to reach thier full ability due to over training or over correcting...

Give the pup that is born with the natural ability his best chance to mature at his own rate and then do not over train or over correct and there will be a lot more early starting naturals..

A pup born with natural ability can not stand in a kennel until it is mature and go to the woods and be a coondog..wont work !!!!

Good Post Guys !!

I Agree Larry there is a lot of things you can do with a young pup that will help while you wait for them to age other then showing them drags and cage coon by no means should one just sit ideal while you wait I agree
Look at gun you took him mushroom hunting you got to see some natural ability come out they will give you sighns of being ready to start with out use of caged coon and hides
If you can let them run lose on a farm is a huge advantage

Posted by sox12 on 02-19-2016 03:56 PM:

to me I may be wrong is when I breed I look hard at the female and male,on what traits can I improve with this cross,for natural ability to stronger triats in one or the other to see if I can to strengthen up on that cross,better drive,better nose or tree,it don't always work the way we want,try to breed the best redbone out there.

George

Posted by Larry D Walker on 02-19-2016 04:10 PM:

Good points

Idont claim to have all the answers

I believe that in a litter from identicle genetics that every pup in that litter has the same chance from conception..with exception of few but the good certainly out weigh the bad

The end product is a result of how that puppy is handled from birth..including the dam and the breeder.

You have to start with the right ingredients from conception.

It is very difficult in my opinion to see those extra natural abilitys in a puppy from birth to 10 weeks old, but they will show. So coming in to choose a puppy from the litter that you have spent no time with is a guessing game..

Now if the breeder has done his part and the dam has done hers. then you now are a trainer from the time you lay your hands on that pup..And over training then is the down fall to most or over correction..there are a lot of ways as mark mentioned to give that pup its best chance..

A chance to mature,starting with the right stuff and avoid over correction..when you break an animal from one thing you take something else away..

__________________
Larry D Walker

Indiana

812-327-8224

Posted by INDIANA-DAN on 02-19-2016 04:16 PM:

WOW

I have to say that this has been the best thread I have read on training pups since I joined the forum. Great work guys. I have been taking my pup out and just watching him. He is still a baby and I am not pushing him at all, just watching. This thread is really encouraging me to do more of the same and be patient and ready. Thanks again and good luck fellas.

Posted by okreddog56 on 02-19-2016 04:20 PM:

I HAVE ALWAYS STARTED MY PUPS BY LETTING THEM RUN LOOSE ON THE FARM,AND THEY ARE RUNNING AND TREEING THE 1ST NIGHT I TAKE THEM.I WOULD SAY THAT IS AS ABOUT AS NATURAL AS IT GETS.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-19-2016 05:09 PM:

On the issue of natural ability and the age a dog gets started...
It has been my experience that a pup is born with a certain amount of natural ability or it isnt. The more it has in 3 main areas (tracking, treeing, and independent desire to hunt) usually the earlier it will start. But I have not seen any definitive proof over the years that tbis natural ability ever decreases over time. What I mean by that is that I think if you let two pups run loose on a farm and at 4-6 months old they are equally starting to track and tree cats, squirrels and whatever else they can get after...and you keep one and sell the other and you start the training process with the one you keep and the other pup sets in a pen for a year...I dont think it will eliminate the one that sat for a year from making just as good of a finished dog in the end.
Sure, I will allow that the dog that sat for a year will for a long while be behind the other dog in experience ...but over time I think they would eventually be comparable at say 4-5 years of age.
I am not one to start pups as soon as I see natural ability showing. Often times this is as early as 3-4 months and a dog that age is like a human toddler...they lose interest fast if you try to do too much with them.
At that age I only reccomend letting them be a pup and explore and just learn their surroundings. They are not mentally or physically mature enough to focus on anything for very long because of their curiousity level for new and different things.
In fact, i would say most pups are really not ready for much repetetive training until they are upwards of 10 months old and even then until they are 12-14 months a one and done policy is a safe way to play it to ensure you are not over training your pup. If you have a pup that does start treeing coon at a young age ....praise it for several minutes and then put it in the kennel for at least a night or two to let that sink in and its desire to go again build.
Its never a bad thing to be conservative in how hard you push an 8-14 month old pup. I have seen a high percentage of good prospects ruined by over hunting them at too young of an age.
An important thing to remember is you cant go by how the dog acts. I have seen guys ruin top prospects by hunting them 4-6 hours at night making 5 -8 trees a night in the middle of summer because they said the dog always wanted to go so they thought he could take it.
Well, there usually is no warning signs until the damage is done. If your lucky it will just be a temp setback...if not the dog may never be the same again.
If in doubt, I always error on the side of less is best.
I would rather take a young prospect 12-14 months old out and tree one or two easy coons call it a night and repeat this 3 times a week than to ever hunt one that age just to see how many it can tree all night and do it night in and night out. Once a dog reaches 14-16 months it is pretty well physically mature enough to take hard steady hunting...but I still usually limit it to 2-3 hours or 3-4 trees and try to call it a night on a good tree.
To Corey's point about what can we do as a breed beyond producing better pups with more natural ability to make sure more of them get the chance and fully reach their potential....
Well, I think education is pretty important. This thread...and really a lot of threads on the redbone board shows a willingness in our breed to want to learn and also a willingness for those with more experience to help those who have not gained much yet. I see a lot of folks wanting to help others with training tips and in other ways.
One of the biggest things that sometimes gets in the way are old wives tales and out dated training techniques...many of which work to some degree...but also cause too much collateral damage in the process. Many of these methods date back 50 years or more to a time when a pup with any natural ability was rare and most hound pups actually had to be trained to track and actually look up a tree and tree till you got there.
These days most pups have enough natural ability that we would get better results in the end by letting it come out on its own and not trying to pull it out and end up over training them in a way that will create bad habits along with the good ones.
Im not saying listen to me...I know everything there is to know about training...Im saying look at the people who continuously produce and start, and finish the types of dogs you would like to hunt. Dont listen to hype by people who tell you for money they can turn any pup into a top dog...because money causes people to say and do things that often wont help you.
There are lots of guys out there that raise and train their own winners and do so year after year and when you see that...you know its not just luck...especially when they keep producing them from the same line.
A lot of guys always have winners year after year...but they buy them already started or finished and they may all be from different lines....its doubtful that those kind of guys are going to be able to help you with training tips so keep that in mind.
I think the best thing we can do as a breed is to help each other become better breeders, pup starters, finishers, and competition handlers.
Most are willing to offer help to those who inquire and some go to great lengths especially with new or young hunters and I cant thank those people enough. If you want to be a better houndsman...dont get fooled by wives tales,smoke and mirrors etc. This isnt rocket science...but you do have to be disciplened and measured in your approach to starting and training a pup. You do need to do your homework and start with a pup that has real potential to end up like the dog you hope for....and you have to have the desire and dedication to stay focused, read the signs, especially the warning signs when a pup starts to get off track and then learn the best way to get it back on track.
The most risk and biggest challenge of ruining a pup and instilling bad habits in my mind is between the age of 6 and 14 months. If you safegard your pup during this crucial period from developing bad habits while letting its natural ability develope at a reasonable pace as this pup learns and gains confidence while being worked at least 50% of the time alone...it would be difficult to set this dog back or ruin it later in its life.
I learn new things every day and I think threads like this provide valuable information to those who want to take the time to read it and actually try it.
I know I have read a few new things on here that I will be trying in the future.
Good luck everyone!

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