UKC Forums - New rule?????

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Posted by msinc on 02-11-2016 12:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
Well at least I'm an honest cheat I guess.

If there is not enough time for the stationary to get me, and the rest of the cast has withdrawn, how on earth could anything happen in the last few minutes of a cast to scratch me.

Your dog could tree a possum...only takes mine about a half a minute!!! And I know you got better/faster dogs than me.

Here's another way to look at it, we are in separate casts at a hunt...we are both cast winners. I have you beat by 25 points. You finish your hunt and your dog put in the full 2 hours. I have ten minutes left to hunt and my dog loves a possum. There is one between me and the direction we need to go. I decide to walk out the last ten...what could it hurt, no one in my cast can beat me. You have just been cheated out of your rightful win.

The biggest problem for me in this situation is credibility. I feel like if I do this kind of rule bending the word will eventually get out. In the future I may really have a nice dog I don't have to cheat with to win. Who is now going to believe it???

Posted by Josh Michaelis on 02-11-2016 02:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Your dog could tree a possum...only takes mine about a half a minute!!! And I know you got better/faster dogs than me.

Here's another way to look at it, we are in separate casts at a hunt...we are both cast winners. I have you beat by 25 points. You finish your hunt and your dog put in the full 2 hours. I have ten minutes left to hunt and my dog loves a possum. There is one between me and the direction we need to go. I decide to walk out the last ten...what could it hurt, no one in my cast can beat me. You have just been cheated out of your rightful win.

First of all if I had a dog that was bad about treeing possums it wouldnt be in a hunt, and if it were, and it falls treed at the end of the hunt, im not treeing it. Pretty sure anyone that has a dog that trees possums can tell when they do it.

Second of all, if I get beat by a dog in another cast that didnt hunt for the last 10 minutes I should have scored more.

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Posted by shadinc on 02-11-2016 04:12 PM:

All of these scenarios don't matter. The rule says hunt 120 minutes. If there's one minute left, cut um loose.

Posted by Josh Michaelis on 02-11-2016 04:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
All of these scenarios don't matter. The rule says hunt 120 minutes. If there's one minute left, cut um loose.

That's fine too. Senseless, but fine

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Posted by novicane65 on 02-11-2016 04:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
All of these scenarios don't matter. The rule says hunt 120 minutes. If there's one minute left, cut um loose.

That's the rule!!! That's what I was trying to say and I think Msinc was trying to say also.

Posted by Josh Michaelis on 02-11-2016 04:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by novicane65
That's the rule!!! That's what I was trying to say and I think Msinc was trying to say also.

Yes we know

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Posted by moonshine man on 02-11-2016 08:26 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
[B]First of all if I had a dog that was bad about treeing possums it wouldnt be in a hunt, and if it were, and it falls treed at the end of the hunt, im not treeing it. Pretty sure anyone that has a dog that trees possums can tell when they do it.

Just think if you were in that last round cast in the World Hunt you could have won if the shoe was on the other foot,you would of knew and never treed your dog on a opossum in that cast.

How can you tell a jacked up dog is treed on a opossum instead of a coon if he is treeing 9 coon for 1 opossums ? most will tree the same on both and run both the same unless they have had their neck burned off.

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Posted by Steve Raleigh on 02-11-2016 08:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by novicane65
Seriously in 20 minutes that could possibly be 2-3 slick trees. That could take your plus score to minus in a hurry. I'd be upset with everyone at the club for treating me that way. I most likely wouldn't support the club anymore. Even if it meant me driving an hour to a different club.

Not in UKC!! lol

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Posted by Steve Raleigh on 02-11-2016 09:12 PM:

Re: New rule?????

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
The last three hunts I have been to each time we got down to where we had roughly 20 minutes left to burn...one guy would call a little pow-wow and the cast decided {voted} to "walk the time out".....I did not go along with this and explained that this was cheating. At least I thought it was...but it seems that everyone does it now. I actually had guys look at me like I was nuts. Had several state that they always do this and was told by several that "whats the problem??? As long as we all agree, who cares???"
When I explained that first off, you have to hunt the full two hours. I got those back and forth looks like "what are you talking about, hunt the full two hours???" Secondly, maybe everyone in this cast does agree to do it, you are still cheating the rest of the cast in the hunt that did follow the rules and hunt the full time. I don't know if they were playing dumb, but they all just did not get that..."how are we cheating the other casts??? They aint here!!"
Is this really as common as it appears???? When we got back to the clubs these geniuses started discussing how ridiculous it was for "that guy" {me} to not go along with it!!! "We been doing that for years," the others at the club would say. I was even called a few less than stellar names by some of them.
Am I the one that is wrong and don't get it??? Is there a new rule I don't know about??? This almost sounds like something that could go on in another KC, kinda like when you win but don't even have to tree a coon. No coons, don't hunt the full time...still win???? Go figure. I mean, if you cant hunt the 2 hours just stay home.

Just curious,
Anyone that suggests and or "walks out" any amount of time at the end of the hunt, whether it be 1 second or 10mins should be scratched!?!?

And if that is the case which you clearly feel strongly about, then by your definition that is CHEATING and therefore we should BAR ALL people involved and the Owner of the dogs as well from UKC.

Its bad enough the numbers of hunters at the local hunts are down to almost nothing and clubs are having to close because of lack of members and support that we want to use the UKC rule police to change something that has been adopted and used for years and years in every kennel registry and that is walking out the last few mins of a cast if they choose/agree to do so.

Posted by Josh Michaelis on 02-11-2016 09:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by moonshine man

How can you tell a jacked up dog is treed on a opossum instead of a coon if he is treeing 9 coon for 1 opossums ? most will tree the same on both and run both the same unless they have had their neck burned off.

The few that I have seen you could tell, but my experience with possum treers is minimal. If I am all by myself, and the stationary cant get me, why on earth would I tree the dog in the first place.

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Posted by Josh Michaelis on 02-11-2016 09:18 PM:

Re: Re: New rule?????

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Raleigh
Just curious,
Anyone that suggests and or "walks out" any amount of time at the end of the hunt, whether it be 1 second or 10mins should be scratched!?!?

And if that is the case which you clearly feel strongly about, then by your definition that is CHEATING and therefore we should BAR ALL people involved and the Owner of the dogs as well from UKC.

Its bad enough the numbers of hunters at the local hunts are down to almost nothing and clubs are having to close because of lack of members and support that we want to use the UKC rule police to change something that has been adopted and used for years and years in every kennel registry and that is walking out the last few mins of a cast if they choose/agree to do so.

Well anyone that does is obviously a cheater with questionable moral standards and most likely homicidal tendencies. Everyone knows that Steve.

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Posted by yadkintar on 02-11-2016 09:30 PM:

If it is sombody that is of good character and I am beat maybe a few minutes but sombody that's a little on the shady side right to the last minute I will watch them like a hawk !

Posted by Josh Michaelis on 02-11-2016 09:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Here's another way to look at it, we are in separate casts at a hunt...we are both cast winners. I have you beat by 25 points. You finish your hunt and your dog put in the full 2 hours. I have ten minutes left to hunt and my dog loves a possum. There is one between me and the direction we need to go. I decide to walk out the last ten...what could it hurt, no one in my cast can beat me. You have just been cheated out of your rightful win.

Than I should have scored more.

All I had to do was tree one more coon and I had 10 more minutes than you did to do it. If someone walking out 10 minutes of a cast prevents me from making my dog a NT CH or GR NT, my dog sucks and shouldnt be there in the first place.

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Posted by msinc on 02-11-2016 10:06 PM:

Re: Re: New rule?????

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Raleigh
Just curious,
Anyone that suggests and or "walks out" any amount of time at the end of the hunt, whether it be 1 second or 10mins should be scratched!?!?

And if that is the case which you clearly feel strongly about, then by your definition that is CHEATING and therefore we should BAR ALL people involved and the Owner of the dogs as well from UKC.

Its bad enough the numbers of hunters at the local hunts are down to almost nothing and clubs are having to close because of lack of members and support that we want to use the UKC rule police to change something that has been adopted and used for years and years in every kennel registry and that is walking out the last few mins of a cast if they choose/agree to do so.

I am not real sure I understand your post..."anyone that suggests"..."and/or"...your words, not mine. We can talk about robbing a bank all day long but that don't make us an A felon.
The rest of that paragraph is spot on, whether you like it or not. In a UKC hunt you must hunt the full two hours, or you are scratched, period end of story. If that rule don't work for you then your remedy is to try and get it changed by working with the rules committee or stay home...it's just that simple.
UKC rules exist to try and make nite hunts fair for all dogs and handlers, they are not there for handlers to pick and choose to use or delete which ever ones they don't agree with or are not working for them at the time.

"And if that is the case which you clearly feel strongly about, then by your definition that is CHEATING and therefore we should BAR ALL people involved and the Owner of the dogs as well from UKC."

You like to put words in other peoples mouths...again, your words, not mine. Not cheating by my definition, cheat by the rules and the rules say scratched. not barred, scratched. Again, if you cant or refuse to play by these rules you can always stay home.

"...we want to use the UKC rule police to change something that has been adopted and used for years and years in every kennel registry and that is walking out the last few mins of a cast if they choose/agree to do so."

So, let me get this straight...a large unconnected group of handlers has agreed to adopt a change to the rules of "every" kennel club because it suits them to their advantage to do so. This group could care less about who they cheat and believe that the enforcement of the rules we all pay to play by is causing low attendance at clubs. And to top it off some of the "members" of this disorganization gets on the internet on the UKC website forum and brags about doing it.
Wow!!!! About the best thing I can say to this is you and your buddies need not come to a hunt where I am master of hounds if I hear about it, or judge of your cast. I will agree to walk out the last 20 minutes...and scratch you for doing it. Rules are rules, whether you like /agree to them or not and they are not for you to change when you want when it is to your advantage.
I guess if you feel real strong about cheating to get attendance up you might want to try what Jim said...agree to plus possums!!!

Posted by Josh Michaelis on 02-11-2016 10:16 PM:

Re: Re: Re: New rule?????

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
So, let me get this straight...a large unconnected group of handlers has agreed to adopt a change to the rules of "every" kennel club because it suits them to their advantage to do so. This group could care less about who they cheat and believe that the enforcement of the rules we all pay to play by is causing low attendance at clubs. And to top it off some of the "members" of this disorganization gets on the internet on the UKC website forum and brags about doing it.
Wow!!!! About the best thing I can say to this is you and your buddies need not come to a hunt where I am master of hounds if I hear about it, or judge of your cast. I will agree to walk out the last 20 minutes...and scratch you for doing it. Rules are rules, whether you like /agree to them or not and they are not for you to change when you want when it is to your advantage.
I guess if you feel real strong about cheating to get attendance up you might want to try what Jim said...agree to plus possums!!!

How long must you walk after a dog trees to recut it if he is all by himself?

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Posted by GA DAWG on 02-11-2016 10:20 PM:

Its very plain to see who hunts in several hunts a yr. Aint hardly non of yall on here.

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Posted by msinc on 02-11-2016 10:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
Than I should have scored more.

All I had to do was tree one more coon and I had 10 more minutes than you did to do it. If someone walking out 10 minutes of a cast prevents me from making my dog a NT CH or GR NT, my dog sucks and shouldnt be there in the first place.

Well, that is certainly one way of "reasoning" this out...so, if I go out and tree 3 coon {1st and 1st for 675+} in an hour and fifteen minutes and walk out the last 45 minutes of the hunt, shielding my dog from any minus points...the guy that hunted the full two hours and only came in with 500+ in a different cast should have had a dog that could do better since he hunted a full 45 minutes longer than my dog did. Something tells me the other guy aint gonna buy into this load of B.S. no more than I will.
I don't believe you guys...what part of 2 HOUR HUNT don't you get????

Posted by msinc on 02-11-2016 10:28 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: New rule?????

quote:
Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
How long must you walk after a dog trees to recut it if he is all by himself?

By your rules it sounds like as long as I want to!!!!

Posted by Josh Michaelis on 02-11-2016 10:34 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New rule?????

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
By your rules it sounds like as long as I want to!!!!

How long according to the rules?

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Posted by Steve Raleigh on 02-11-2016 10:34 PM:

Re: Re: Re: New rule?????

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
I am not real sure I understand your post..."anyone that suggests"..."and/or"...your words, not mine. We can talk about robbing a bank all day long but that don't make us an A felon.
The rest of that paragraph is spot on, whether you like it or not. In a UKC hunt you must hunt the full two hours, or you are scratched, period end of story. If that rule don't work for you then your remedy is to try and get it changed by working with the rules committee or stay home...it's just that simple.
UKC rules exist to try and make nite hunts fair for all dogs and handlers, they are not there for handlers to pick and choose to use or delete which ever ones they don't agree with or are not working for them at the time.

"And if that is the case which you clearly feel strongly about, then by your definition that is CHEATING and therefore we should BAR ALL people involved and the Owner of the dogs as well from UKC."

You like to put words in other peoples mouths...again, your words, not mine. Not cheating by my definition, cheat by the rules and the rules say scratched. not barred, scratched. Again, if you cant or refuse to play by these rules you can always stay home.

"...we want to use the UKC rule police to change something that has been adopted and used for years and years in every kennel registry and that is walking out the last few mins of a cast if they choose/agree to do so."

So, let me get this straight...a large unconnected group of handlers has agreed to adopt a change to the rules of "every" kennel club because it suits them to their advantage to do so. This group could care less about who they cheat and believe that the enforcement of the rules we all pay to play by is causing low attendance at clubs. And to top it off some of the "members" of this disorganization gets on the internet on the UKC website forum and brags about doing it.
Wow!!!! About the best thing I can say to this is you and your buddies need not come to a hunt where I am master of hounds if I hear about it, or judge of your cast. I will agree to walk out the last 20 minutes...and scratch you for doing it. Rules are rules, whether you like /agree to them or not and they are not for you to change when you want when it is to your advantage.
I guess if you feel real strong about cheating to get attendance up you might want to try what Jim said...agree to plus possums!!!

You being a judge of a cast and agreeing to walk out the last few mins of the cast then turn around and only scratch the other ppl and not yourself lol really?

I get it you are hardcore by the book, black and white on this situation and probably every thing in life. Maybe I should report you to the police anytime you break the speed limit b/c you are cheating other drivers out of their safety.

I have no desire to go to Maryland to deal with a MOHs or judge that has little man syndrome, and then have to deal common sense in a hunting situation being ignored b/c you feel the need to make someone turn loose on a big mountain at 2am in the morning and 10 degrees on a full moon night with 15 seconds left in the hunt b/c you wanna cry about how that person is cheating everyone else and could tree a possum and yada yada yada.....I guess you should have your buddies come to Illinois where I am the Judge or MOHs and if I hear about or see you circling slick trees which I have no doubt in my mind you do, I will scratch you.

Posted by Steve Raleigh on 02-11-2016 10:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Well, that is certainly one way of "reasoning" this out...so, if I go out and tree 3 coon {1st and 1st for 675+} in an hour and fifteen minutes and walk out the last 45 minutes of the hunt, shielding my dog from any minus points...the guy that hunted the full two hours and only came in with 500+ in a different cast should have had a dog that could do better since he hunted a full 45 minutes longer than my dog did. Something tells me the other guy aint gonna buy into this load of B.S. no more than I will.
I don't believe you guys...what part of 2 HOUR HUNT don't you get????

lol we get the 2hr 120min hunt time. Kinda funny getting you going. This is not our first rodeo MSINC. Its entertaining.

Josh did have a valid question...Tells us all what the rule says! How long???

Posted by yadkintar on 02-11-2016 10:39 PM:

Well I understood it when it was three hours the reason was there was a bunch of coondogs and good dog men on the circuit at that time and you knew you were going to have a good score to place so you used every minute wisely now some of this stuff today I can't even stand it an hour.

Posted by GA DAWG on 02-11-2016 10:43 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New rule?????

quote:
Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
How long according to the rules?

lol. They looking for it now. Might better get em state rules on telemtry to cause that ones gonna pop up soon if they keep hunting.

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Posted by ov_blues on 02-11-2016 10:45 PM:

If it takes more than 15 minutes to find new hunting ground by foot then technically with the right guide a cast could walk out the last 15 minutes of the hunt. And that could be the holler down the road a couple of hundred yards if you walked real slow. lol.

I drew a judge one time that guided us to one big woods. After the first tree he called time out and said we were going to walk a ways and then cut them loose. We walked really slow, with a couple of stops to rest over the next 15 minutes, then we arrived at the "next" turnout. We made another tree and after it was scored he tried to do the same thing. I objected and said that wasn't fair for us to do that to the other casts in order for us to gain more hunting time than them. He said well they are probably spot hunting and calling time out after every tree so this makes it fair to us. We ended up not calling time out after every tree but it does show that things can be justified in someones mind if they think of the right angle.

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Posted by Josh Michaelis on 02-11-2016 10:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
If it takes more than 15 minutes to find new hunting ground by foot then technically with the right guide a cast could walk out the last 15 minutes of the hunt.

Thank you.

Looks like we are not all cheating after all.

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