UKC Forums - Strike point suggestion

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-- Strike point suggestion (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928430805)

Posted by Josh Michaelis on 10-02-2015 10:54 PM:

Are loose barking dogs that cover a late strike dog really winning all the time?

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Posted by mr taylor on 10-02-2015 10:55 PM:

Hounds

Who is to say that they was not something bread in them to make them more open because if you go and read some of the stories about the old fox and coon hounds from day one they say they barked enough to locate and some never done that and they started adding other dogs and that is how they got the other lines of hounds,hounds has changed in the way they bark on track and tree since the 80s and the rules has to and if you look they have changed the rules through the years to fit the hound.

Posted by ov_blues on 10-02-2015 11:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
Are loose barking dogs that cover a late strike dog really winning all the time?

My point was that if UKC lowered first strike to 75, second strike to 75, and third and fourth strike to 25, that this wouldn't hardly ever happen. Plus it wouldn't change the outcome of a cast with honest dogs and handlers very often. If it did it would be because the dog with more tree points would come out the winner more often.

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Posted by ov_blues on 10-02-2015 11:39 PM:

I did a mock scorecard off the final four at the world but plused the last tree the dogs were on together just to use as an example. One scorecard I used with 100 for first strike, the second scorecard I used 75 for first strike. The cast placement would have been the same either way. So I don't think 75 for first strike would change things that often with good casts with honest mouthed dogs but it would on a lot of the local casts with the guys bringing the bad babblers

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Posted by HERSHSHUNTIN on 10-03-2015 12:08 AM:

all comes down to the judges

I think that the system is ok as it is now if the Judges were to enforce the current rules. Silent dogs would be scratched and the babblers would be minus if the rules were strictly followed. But that's not gonna happen, when was the last silent dog scratched?? or when was the babbler misused? The rules are there, but not followed IMO

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Posted by MIDNITE BLUE on 10-03-2015 12:39 AM:

Re: all comes down to the judges

quote:
Originally posted by HERSHSHUNTIN
I think that the system is ok as it is now if the Judges were to enforce the current rules. Silent dogs would be scratched and the babblers would be minus if the rules were strictly followed. But that's not gonna happen, when was the last silent dog scratched?? or when was the babbler misused? The rules are there, but not followed IMO

I agree with everything you have said about the rules not being followed pertaining to the current strike rule. But I will also say this. How can a judge honestly penalize a babbler under the current definition in the rule book. How can he proof if a track is present or not in the woods. Or how much of the hunt time will be used trying to determine that. The same can be said about the silent dog also to some degree. I am on board with John on this that something should be tweaked or changed to make it a little easier to judge these babbling and silent dogs. I believe the reason most judges are not penalizing those dogs is because they cannot provide enough evidence to do so therefor resulting in no call at all.JMO

Posted by ov_blues on 10-03-2015 01:44 AM:

Cast

Dog A
100 point strike system
100 first strike, 75 second tree=175
100 first strike, 75 second tree=175
100 first strike; 75 second tree =175
100 first strike, 75 second tree=175
Total score 700

Dog B
50 third strike, 125 first tree=175
50 third strike, 125 first tree=175
25 fourth strike, 125 tree=150
50 third strike, 125 first tree=175
Total score 675

Cast winner Dog A even though Dog B treed all four coon.

With 75 point strike rule
Dog A
75 first strike, 75 second tree=150
75 first strike, 75 second tree=150
75 first strike, 75 second tree=150
75 first strike, 75 second tree=150
Total score 600

Dog B
Third strike 25, first tree 125=150
Third strike 25, first tree 125=150
Fourth strike 25, first tree 125=150
Third strike 25, first tree 125 = 150
Total score 600

Cast winner Dog B who treed all 4 coon first.

Makes more sense to me this way

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Posted by groworg1 on 10-03-2015 02:32 AM:

ov blues it don't to me ! as your only showing 2 dogs but using 4 dog point system as 50 points strike would never be used in 2 dog cast. each tree has 50 point advantage at the end of the hunt the dog that strikes 2nd and trees first will win now if you draw out with 3 or 4 dog cast and your getting last strike and first tree every time you most likely will lose as night hunts are designed for the best overall dog to win not just a first tree dog

Posted by ov_blues on 10-03-2015 02:37 AM:

I just never filled the other dogs in because they were beat anyway. It had to be a four dog cast in order for dog B to get fourth strike once.

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Posted by groworg1 on 10-03-2015 02:40 AM:

if he would have gotten 3rd on that one he would have won as most tree points would break tie

Posted by ov_blues on 10-03-2015 02:44 AM:

That is right what you said but it requires a but to win. 75 first strike position didn't require a but. In my opinion if a fourth strike dog trees four out of four coon first he isn't just a first tree dog, he is probably the best dog in the cast it that is just my opinion.

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Posted by groworg1 on 10-03-2015 04:23 AM:

no but giving last 2 strike dogs the same point value isn't fair either

Posted by ov_blues on 10-03-2015 04:29 AM:

The point is to try to make a more level playing field for the dogs that tree the coon not the dogs that bark at something or nothing. There isn't any rule that will fit every situation to find out who the best dog is so anybody can find a fault with any point system. Bottom line to me is to try to find one that rewards the coon tree'r the best.

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Posted by yadkintar on 10-03-2015 02:11 PM:

I love to see these guys that say how can you tell a dogs babbling omg !!! Yall think every body is that dumb ? When you go to cut all 4 of those rattle headed idiots are barking every breath !! Then when you do get one that don't do it and keeps its mouth shut and sneaks away from all that mess and trees a coon on them it offends them so bad they want to scratch them for being silent lmao !!!

Posted by ov_blues on 10-03-2015 03:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
I love to see these guys that say how can you tell a dogs babbling omg !!! Yall think every body is that dumb ? When you go to cut all 4 of those rattle headed idiots are barking every breath !! Then when you do get one that don't do it and keeps its mouth shut and sneaks away from all that mess and trees a coon on them it offends them so bad they want to scratch them for being silent lmao !!!

And then if one of the rattle headed idiots gets the first strike and gets second tree on the coon that the coon dog treed then the rattle headed idiot has the most points on that coon. A count down would help this some also but not always. 75 First strike instead of 100 would solve that problem.

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Posted by ov_blues on 10-03-2015 04:00 PM:

100 for First Strike

This is the final four scorecard with the last two trees being plussed.

100 for 1st strike__75 for 1st strike

Strike...Tree______Strike...Tree

Dog A
100-.....75-______75-.......75-
50C......125C_____25C......125C
100+....125+_____75+......125+
50+......125+_____25+......125+
75+......75+______50+......75+
Total 375+_______Total 325+

Dog B
25-.......50-_______25-......50-
25D..........._______25D
75+......50+______50+......50+
100+....50+______75+......50+
25D......50-______25D......50-
Total 150+_______Total 100+

Dog C
50-.......25-______25-.......25-
75C......125C_____50C.....125C
25C......125C_____25C.....125C
25+......125+_____25+.....125+
100+....125+_____75+.....125+
Total 300+_______Total 300+

Dog D
75-.......125-_____50-......125-
100C.....125C____75C......125C
50+.......75+_____25+......75+
75+...125-/75+___50+....125-/75+
50+.......125+____25+......125+
Total 125+______Total 75+

This shows that reducing strike points doesn't change the scoring placement much when the dogs are being competitive on getting treed.
My example in the previous scoring posts shows how it will cut down on cast winning dogs that are carrying first strike and backing on trees. Even if you take babbling out of the equation, a dog that barks first on a track should not win over the dogs that tree the coon first, in my opinion. Also, with some strike point difference in the equation it would be hard for a silent dog to beat an honest opening dog. For a lot of different situations it would make sense to lower first strike to 75.

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Posted by Dick BRothers on 10-03-2015 04:48 PM:

babling dogs

Go back to the old rule we use to have, on second offense of babbling dog will be scratched, in 30 days there would"t be any babbling dogs ,

Posted by elvis on 10-03-2015 05:09 PM:

Re: babling dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Dick BRothers
Go back to the old rule we use to have, on second offense of babbling dog will be scratched, in 30 days there would"t be any babbling dogs ,

Amen Brother

Posted by ov_blues on 10-03-2015 05:10 PM:

Re: babling dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Dick BRothers
Go back to the old rule we use to have, on second offense of babbling dog will be scratched, in 30 days there would"t be any babbling dogs ,

I agree. That sounds a whole lot better.

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Posted by Rip on 10-03-2015 05:35 PM:

Been saying that for years. Now all the minute does is give the babbling dog time to get far enough into the woods as to create doubt as to whether or not he is on a track. Makes it much, much harder tell.

The old way I remember judges walking across a field then turning the dogs back across the same way we came with the light on them. Babblers went to the truck. Wasn't hard at all and no arguements cause you could see the dog was not running a track.

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Posted by ov_blues on 10-03-2015 05:43 PM:

Why were the rules changed to give the one minute grace period each turnout? I do remember people getting ticked off for getting scratched because they said their babbler was not a babbler, he/she was just cold nosed.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 10-03-2015 06:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
I love to see these guys that say how can you tell a dogs babbling omg !!! Yall think every body is that dumb ? When you go to cut all 4 of those rattle headed idiots are barking every breath !! Then when you do get one that don't do it and keeps its mouth shut and sneaks away from all that mess and trees a coon on them it offends them so bad they want to scratch them for being silent lmao !!!

Well said, i cant remember the last time i was on a cast where atleast 2 or 3 didnt leave barkin. Most of em start opening as soon as they are lined up to be cut. Even if you have an honest dog after about 3 hunts your dog will be doin it too.
Thats not really the problem as long as the handler doesnt try to babble em on the card. The problem is these automatic dogs that never shutup, they are struck as soon as the minute is up because they have to be and continue to open until they cover another dogs track or get treed. Quite often by the time the minute is up they are 2 or 3 hundred yards in and whos to say what they are doin,some dog track, some are junkin, and some just open because they are idiots. Find one that also trees coon or is quick to cover and you got yourself a WINNER.
Even back before the minute rule, dogs wernt minused for babbling, they were just struck on the third bark and you hoped there would be some action before the 8 caught them.

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Posted by msinc on 10-03-2015 08:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Well said, i cant remember the last time i was on a cast where atleast 2 or 3 didnt leave barkin. Most of em start opening as soon as they are lined up to be cut. Even if you have an honest dog after about 3 hunts your dog will be doin it too.
Thats not really the problem as long as the handler doesnt try to babble em on the card. The problem is these automatic dogs that never shutup, they are struck as soon as the minute is up because they have to be and continue to open until they cover another dogs track or get treed. Quite often by the time the minute is up they are 2 or 3 hundred yards in and whos to say what they are doin,some dog track, some are junkin, and some just open because they are idiots. Find one that also trees coon or is quick to cover and you got yourself a WINNER.
Even back before the minute rule, dogs wernt minused for babbling, they were just struck on the third bark and you hoped there would be some action before the 8 caught them.

I totally get what you are saying and I have witnessed it both as a judge and as a handler. I still believe that the solution lies with the person appointed to judge.
Somebody suggested the last time a babbling dog thread was beat to death that one solution was to make it so that a dog had to "qualify" to hunt in the hunts by proving that he could strike, run and tree a coon by himself. Kind of like an HTX hunt but only once. If the dog can be released without babbling, strike a track and tree it, show a coon and not blast off on junk then he passed and can now enter into competition. The problem with this dream is that entries would suffer in an already beleaguered sport.
Another solution might be to have the dogs line up and handlers act like they are going to unsnap. Then, without unsnapping them order the dogs to be moved 75 yards in another direction and set up again...if they all start mouthing again, pick up and move again...after this they are minused for babbling and cut loose. The theory here is that it is an impossibility that you walked up on three coon tracks in a row.
One thing is for sure...as long as there is a perceived or real notion that a barking mad idiot is the way to win hunts and nothing is being done about it, there will not be a change.

Posted by Cowboyred on 10-03-2015 08:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
Why were the rules changed to give the one minute grace period each turnout? I do remember people getting ticked off for getting scratched because they said their babbler was not a babbler, he/she was just cold nosed.

Approximately 15+/- years ago

Posted by ov_blues on 10-03-2015 08:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cowboyred
Approximately 15+/- years ago

Not when, why?

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