UKC Forums - Does a trainer make a top hound!

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Posted by msinc on 07-16-2015 06:26 PM:

Re: Re: Hey you ol hill jack Vic!

quote:
Originally posted by Vic Stoll
That is why I am referring to it more as a freak. Seeing is believing is all I can say, & I was fortunate enough to witness one of those first hand. We base our opinions on our experiences, & my experience with what I witnessed determined my interpretation of "natural". I think it boils down to the inevitable Human Interpretation factor of what a "natural" is.

The more common one in my eyes (and what I think Danny is referring to) is the ones which are well above average. They may not be the exceptional freak, but will require some, all be it very little human intervention. Yes, they all have holes/weaknesses, but their strengths override those weaknesses far more often than not. What little human intervention they do require is minimal, & seldom repeated.

All that wind aside, I still think it is more the dog than the trainer

Absolutely...I don't know if "freak of nature" is the best thing to call it but I cant think of a better description. I started back in the late 70's and in all this time to date I have seen one dog, a Walker out of Beaver Lake Lightning, that never ran anything off and was a natural tree dog. He wasn't anything special, the owner got messed up on dope and the dog was never put in but one hunt.
I believe I will probably never see another one, so why even worry about it??? I also believe these people that say they are breeding dogs to not run junk are human freaks of nature, and they too are not worth worrying about.
When it comes to running and treeing coons, it's in the dog, a good trainer helps bring it to the surface and hone it to a fine edge...when it comes to NOT running junk, sorry fellas...that is in the trainer. Unless of course you are willing to look for 35 years to find one!!!!!

Posted by recon on 07-16-2015 07:58 PM:

TOM, I thought you were hoarding all the gooder'uns up there!?!?!?!?!?

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Posted by Ron Moore on 07-16-2015 08:22 PM:

Had one close!

When I got my Bud dog as a pup I had no idea what I had. He was not a freak but pretty dang close. First coon he ever smelled in the wild was at 5 &1/2 month old. I saw it feeding in the neighbors pasture field about an hour before dark. I walked him up towards it hoping he would see it but it ran to the edge of the field and up a tree before he could see it. When he cut its track, he immediately opened and drifted upwind from where it was setting, sat down and treed every breath. It just blew my mind. That's when I knew I was on to something special! I was hunting him alone at just over 8 months old and treeing real wild coon. He never treed a possum or backed a dog on one. He did run fast game a couple times with another dog as a youngster but just quit once he started treeing coon. I never had put a shocker on him. The first night in the woods, ever, was the day he turned 6 months old and had never been hunted after dark or any other time. We made 3 drops with him and my old Bonnie female and had 3 trees, one single, one double and one den. The closest tree was about a quarter mile away and he was up on the tree with Bonnie every time, and I don't mean barking because she was. He was treeing on his own. Bud started loading without any coaxing, he just jumped up in the hull box, same on the back of my 4-wheeler. He led the best, always beside me. He never needed another dog to go hunting; he went from the start alone. He wasn't perfect, but probably as close as I'll come. He had some faults. He was an alpha male, too dang doggy around male dogs for me. Was strange in the kennel too, didn't like strangers if they came close to the kennel. Would growl once and a while if you put a strange dog on the tailgate while he was in the box. But he was a beautiful, all blue hound that looked like a hound should and had the best mouth of any hound I've ever owned. He was a young man’s dog though, he wouldn't come back once turned loose, and you had to pick him off the tree somewhere. That's my definition of a natural.

Posted by Tom Jones on 07-16-2015 09:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by recon
TOM, I thought you were hoarding all the gooder'uns up there!?!?!?!?!?

if you call hog bayin, deer runnin and crap eatin the real deal............I GOT 'EM

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Posted by recon on 07-16-2015 10:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Jones
if you call hog bayin, deer runnin and crap eatin the real deal............I GOT 'EM

Sounds like you need to send them to someone that knows what they are doing then!!!

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Posted by msinc on 07-16-2015 11:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by recon
Sounds like you need to send them to someone that knows what they are doing then!!!

Maybe, maybe not...he might not be done with them yet. One thing about it...you gotta admire the man's honesty. How many other guys would get on hear and make that claim???? Not very many, most of them want to tell us they breed dogs that don't run deer.

Posted by recon on 07-17-2015 12:41 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Maybe, maybe not...he might not be done with them yet. One thing about it...you gotta admire the man's honesty. How many other guys would get on hear and make that claim???? Not very many, most of them want to tell us they breed dogs that don't run deer.

There u go Tom!!!! 1500 post in less than two years.....bound to be a top trainer of top hounds!

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Posted by msinc on 07-17-2015 01:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by recon
There u go Tom!!!! 1500 post in less than two years.....bound to be a top trainer of top hounds!

Let me get this right....you are going to judge me on the number of posts I have.....and you are the guy who believes a tick bite can make dogs run junk?????????? O.K. LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, no wait...it was his.....thyroid...yeah, yeah...that's it...thyroid making him run deer!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry...my mistake...I believe you..............

Posted by recon on 07-17-2015 01:20 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Let me get this right....you are going to judge me on the number of posts I have.....and you are the guy who believes a tick bite can make dogs run junk?????????? O.K. LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, no wait...it was his.....thyroid...yeah, yeah...that's it...thyroid making him run deer!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry...my mistake...I believe you..............

ABSOLUTELY and ABSOLUTELY!!!

I've had two get tick diseases, not just tick bites (so if you are going to quote me do it correctly), and both went from being straight to running trash overnight.

Got a buddy now that has a blue dog in the PKC standings that started trashing out of the blue. Took him to the vet and his thyroid was low. Got his levels squared away and he's back straight as an arrow.

The shock collar is not the answer to everything!!! They usually need to be used on the trainer more than the dog!!!

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Posted by msinc on 07-17-2015 01:56 AM:

Speaking of genetics.....maybe it's time this gets posted again. When it comes to everyone complaining about the quality of dogs that are being produced today I think we are barking up the wrong tree, I don't think it's a dog problem at all...its a human problem...

"The question about "Is it Genetics"?"

This will make some guys mad but, I think at some point we should start to look at the "genetics" of some of the owner/handler/trainers....

We have guys posting on here recently that seriously believe:

The 3 to 5 MILE long track their dog just ran is a coon....

14 trees a night with nothing in them was squirrels....

A dog should be culled because he has not treed his own coon by himself at 10 months.....

A trashy deer running dog will decide to stop on his own if you feed him enough treats and keep hunting him hard....

A dog that never really did hunt out and hold his tree has some strange medical problem he caught from a tick....

Rolling a mean dog off the tree by the throat and get down on your hands and knees and growl at him, that'll break him from being a tree fighter....

A glowing white woman in a white dress floated just off the ground and chased them down a road and out of the woods.....

Guys believe that the movie made up by a guy that didn’t even coon hunt, “Where the Red Fern Grows” is the best source of training information and it should be watched repeatedly to get it all.

Dogs can be bitten by certain ticks or have a thyroid problem and it will cause them to run junk, but a vet can fix it if you get them to one quick enough.

{Oops...guess I didn't quote this one right again, but who cares when it's "absolute" total B.S. anyway???}

Now I have to ask...if this is what we have breeding dogs, does anyone really have to wonder where the coon treeing dogs went?????

Posted by recon on 07-17-2015 02:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Speaking of genetics.....maybe it's time this gets posted again. When it comes to everyone complaining about the quality of dogs that are being produced today I think we are barking up the wrong tree, I don't think it's a dog problem at all...its a human problem...

"The question about "Is it Genetics"?"

This will make some guys mad but, I think at some point we should start to look at the "genetics" of some of the owner/handler/trainers....

We have guys posting on here recently that seriously believe:

The 3 to 5 MILE long track their dog just ran is a coon....

14 trees a night with nothing in them was squirrels....

A dog should be culled because he has not treed his own coon by himself at 10 months.....

A trashy deer running dog will decide to stop on his own if you feed him enough treats and keep hunting him hard....

A dog that never really did hunt out and hold his tree has some strange medical problem he caught from a tick....

Rolling a mean dog off the tree by the throat and get down on your hands and knees and growl at him, that'll break him from being a tree fighter....

A glowing white woman in a white dress floated just off the ground and chased them down a road and out of the woods.....

Guys believe that the movie made up by a guy that didn’t even coon hunt, “Where the Red Fern Grows” is the best source of training information and it should be watched repeatedly to get it all.

Dogs can be bitten by certain ticks or have a thyroid problem and it will cause them to run junk, but a vet can fix it if you get them to one quick enough.

{Oops...guess I didn't quote this one right again, but who cares when it's "absolute" total B.S. anyway???}

Now I have to ask...if this is what we have breeding dogs, does anyone really have to wonder where the coon treeing dogs went?????

LOL......great reference material to support your position!!! Best of luck to you!!!

__________________
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Posted by breezyoaks on 07-17-2015 02:37 AM:

Judist priest....?? Have another beer !!! Lol

[QUOTE]Originally posted by msinc
[B]Speaking of genetics.....maybe it's time this gets posted again. When it comes to everyone complaining about the quality of dogs that are being produced today I think we are barking up the wrong tree, I don't think it's a dog problem at all...its a human problem...

"The question about "Is it Genetics"?"

This will make some guys mad but, I think at some point we should start to look at the "genetics" of some of the owner/handler/trainers....

We have guys posting on here recently that seriously believe:

The 3 to 5 MILE long track their dog just ran is a coon....

14 trees a night with nothing in them was squirrels....

A dog should be culled because he has not treed his own coon by himself at 10 months.....

A trashy deer running dog will decide to stop on his own if you feed him enough treats and keep hunting him hard....

A dog that never really did hunt out and hold his tree has some strange medical problem he caught from a tick....

Rolling a mean dog off the tree by the throat and get down on your hands and knees and growl at him, that'll break him from being a tree fighter....

A glowing white woman in a white dress floated just off the ground and chased them down a road and out of the woods.....

Guys believe that the movie made up by a guy that didn’t even coon hunt, “Where the Red Fern Grows” is the best source of training information and it should be watched repeatedly to get it all.

Dogs can be bitten by certain ticks or have a thyroid problem and it will cause them to run junk, but a vet can fix it if you get them to one

BETTER QUIT POSTING WHILE YER DRINKING......HEHEEEE

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Posted by msinc on 07-17-2015 02:45 AM:

Re: Judist priest....?? Have another beer !!! Lol

quote:
Originally posted by breezyoaks
[B

BETTER QUIT POSTING WHILE YER DRINKING......HEHEEEE [/B]

I think you missed it...this is not what I made up while I was drinking...these are all things read in other posts on this forum by people that actually believe it. These same losers are what are breeding the dogs we hunt.

Posted by scoham on 07-17-2015 03:05 AM:

Does a trainer make a top hound?
Man domesticated the wolf to serve his needs.

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Posted by Tom Jones on 07-17-2015 03:01 PM:

Re: Re: Judist priest....?? Have another beer !!! Lol

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
I think you missed it...this is not what I made up while I was drinking...these are all things read in other posts on this forum by people that actually believe it. These same losers are what are breeding the dogs we hunt.

what top hounds have you produced? you can shut me up by posting one that ANYBODY has heard of? msinc, lets not try to toot are own horn while calling others a looser. That is not what this forum is about. You can agree or disagree and state your opinion, which we all know you do consistently but inconsistent. Remember, folks can click on your profile and read all your old post, what will they see? I assume they will see you arguing on every single thread that you post on and giving little to know information, am I wrong?

PS: STAY TUNED FOR THE GREATEST PUPPY TRAINING VIDEO THAT HAS EVER BEEN RELEASED................ (stan w. and jeff b. knows this great method)

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Posted by recon on 07-17-2015 04:52 PM:

I am still trying to figure out how all of this talk about breaking a young dog of running off game ties to the question of a trainer making a top hound????

Seems to me, that breaking a dog from off game is something that has to be done with most dogs, and has little to do with whether it becomes a top hound or not. I know many dogs that are straight as can be, but are barely average coondogs. I know of a few TOP HOUNDS that have and will do more winning than most of us combined, that will still bump some trash now and again.

(And on a side note, I know of many young prospects that have been completely ruined by an under educated hot headed trainer with a shock transmitter in his hand trying to break one off trash)

Certainly none of us want a trash runner, but so far all I have heard from the "trainers" is how to break one off trash. What about all of the other things that truly separate a top hound from an average one. How do you train those things?

I honestly want to hear from those arguing a dog is "trained" to be a top hound, how do they train them to:
1. have an overwhelming hunt drive
2. be an honest first strike dog
3. hunt fast and smart with coon finding sense
4. be a superior track dog
5. be a quick but accurate locator with a first locate you can tree them on

JMO, but I know of no way to train these things.

I am all ears.........

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Posted by John Carroll on 07-17-2015 04:59 PM:

I'm not a top trainer, but what little experience I have has led me to believe that training can't really make a dog do stuff.

I can only stop them from doing stuff.

If they don't have it born in them to do what I want, cull them.

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Posted by BIG$BLUES on 07-17-2015 05:11 PM:

Jeff the list of things you posted are things a dog is born with in my opinion and it's also my opinion not many are born with it with that said there are other factors that master (man) can put in to help

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Posted by BIG$BLUES on 07-17-2015 05:14 PM:

I also want to put it out there if anyone is raising the type of dogs that can drive themselves to the woods hunting I would like to purchase 2

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Posted by Tom Jones on 07-17-2015 05:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BIG$BLUES
I also want to put it out there if anyone is raising the type of dogs that can drive themselves to the woods hunting I would like to purchase 2

I have them and they are expensive!! I can make you a deal off the chain lol

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Posted by BIG$BLUES on 07-17-2015 05:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Jones
I have them and they are expensive!! I can make you a deal off the chain lol

lol I would sell a kidney for a couple

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Speak the truth it will set you free.

Posted by Tom Jones on 07-17-2015 05:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John Carroll
I'm not a top trainer, but what little experience I have has led me to believe that training can't really make a dog do stuff.

I can only stop them from doing stuff.

If they don't have it born in them to do what I want, cull them.

cant add much to that John. agree 100%

Jeff, well said!!

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Posted by Vic Stoll on 07-17-2015 07:49 PM:

Credit where Credit is Due!

Got to hand it to you Danny Glista. You put a post out there that has generated 4 plus pages of response on a message board that was deader than a hammer! You even managed to accomplish this with a new subject, not one that has been beat to death multiple times already

Very interesting reading I must say

recon .... I like & agree with your posts on this thread!

A reference to ponder:

nat·u·ral
adjective
1.
existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.

noun
1.
a person regarded as having an innate gift or talent for a particular task or activity.

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Posted by recon on 07-17-2015 07:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John Carroll
I'm not a top trainer, but what little experience I have has led me to believe that training can't really make a dog do stuff.

I can only stop them from doing stuff.

If they don't have it born in them to do what I want, cull them.

Well said John. And usually when one is "trained" to do stuff, they will decide to be dogs at the worst possible time and forget what they were "trained" to do.

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Posted by recon on 07-17-2015 08:20 PM:

Re: Credit where Credit is Due!

quote:
Originally posted by Vic Stoll

recon .... I like & agree with your posts on this thread!

Vic,

I don't comment on here much, but this is a topic that is a source of much frustration for me. As you may have picked up by now, it is one of my "pet peeves".

Very few people are qualified to be a "trainer", myself included. Watching people "train" their dogs just makes me sit and shake my head sometimes. I wonder how many good dogs have been ruined by a self proclaimed dog trainer trying to make one a top hound?

Let's just hunt them, be patient, and let their breeding come out. If it's there, and we like what we see, tweak them to our liking. There would probably be far less culls if that was done.

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