UKC Forums - Dog Fighting Question

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Posted by DylanHovey on 04-02-2015 08:42 AM:

Re: Re: Re: fighting

quote:
Originally posted by gdo
What if you are at work and some one beats your a$$ and takes your position and your boss says sorry I didn't see it you need more staying power if your gonna work here.My buddies don't hunt mean dogs and if they get one that is they don't hunt it long.And its fine with the guy at the hunt that has the mean dog as long as his is the meanest but when your dog comes out on top you then are the one with the mean dog.

We still are talking about coon hunting, right? All I can tell you is if your going to hunt in these hunts you better have one that will stay or you won't win a whole lot. Mean dogs have been around forever and I doubt they are going anywhere.

I was at that same hunt and a rough one covered mine the first night and it rattled her a good bit for the rest of the night but she stayed. I truly believe it cost me the cast. I didn't get on these boards crying about it though. Sometimes you have to just have to suck it up.

After all... They are all still dogs.

Posted by ClayBottom11 on 04-02-2015 12:12 PM:

The way I see it..

The rules state that if you don't know who the agressor is, you scratch them both. Just because one dog is "winning" the scrap, doesn't mean that its the one who started it.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 04-02-2015 12:34 PM:

HERES A TWIST..
waking to the tree you hear a fight, when you get there they are all treeing fine but one dog is bloodied, so you know that dog was in the fight. Do you scratch that bloody dog because you know he was in the fight?
I doubt many will say yes because they didnt see that dog being aggressive, now reread the original post.

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Posted by yadkintar on 04-02-2015 12:45 PM:

If you put dogs on the tree one at a time it don't matter If it's the first aggressor or not any dog at any time that shows aggression is scratched bad break but it's like when I was a kid if nobody wouldn't fess up dad whooped all of us !

Posted by Fisher13 on 04-02-2015 01:28 PM:

I have never judged a cast so I'm not sure what I would do.
That said, with the all junk some of these guys bring to a hunt I sure would be angry, if my dog gets jumped and lays down,submits appeasing the aggressor and killing the fight before it starts, then my dog gets scratched?

So I would ask how often does the non aggressor end up on top of the aggressor and pin it to the ground. If the non aggressor doesn't flee, (leave the tree) avoid or lay down and submit, but ends up on top. I would question why shouldn't this dog be scratched? So common sense would tell me, more times then not the aggressor is the dog on top, and if not I would question how the non aggressor got on top because clearly it mush have some experience fighting others dogs to get in that position.

If my above statement is true that the majority of the time the aggressive dog is the dog on top, which I believe to be true. I don't see how we can logically decide to scratch the redbone.

I don't have a lot of experience with seeing dogs fight so my opinion could change but I would think the non aggressor typically would lay down or leave.

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Posted by pamjohnson on 04-02-2015 01:45 PM:

fisher

part of the narrow sighted look you have here is your thinking bout your dog and how it would be with her. all dogs are different. yes the non aggressor can come out on top easy and quick.

Posted by HOBO on 04-02-2015 01:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher13
I have never judged a cast so I'm not sure what I would do.
That said, with the all junk some of these guys bring to a hunt I sure would be angry, if my dog gets jumped and lays down,submits appeasing the aggressor and killing the fight before it starts, then my dog gets scratched?

So I would ask how often does the non aggressor end up on top of the aggressor and pin it to the ground. If the non aggressor doesn't flee, (leave the tree) avoid or lay down and submit, but ends up on top. I would question why shouldn't this dog be scratched? So common sense would tell me, more times then not the aggressor is the dog on top, and if not I would question how the non aggressor got on top because clearly it mush have some experience fighting others dogs to get in that position.

If my above statement is true that the majority of the time the aggressive dog is the dog on top, which I believe to be true. I don't see how we can logically decide to scratch the redbone.

I don't have a lot of experience with seeing dogs fight so my opinion could change but I would think the non aggressor typically would lay down or leave.

NOT TRUE. I had a walker female that would not start any crap but she sure wouldn't take any either.. One night pleasure hunting another dog started a fight with her. We heard them fight for a bit then went back to treeing, then another fight then back to treeing then a third fight. After that one only my dog went back to treeing, when we got to the tree she had her butt to the tree and was looking for the other dog to come into the tree.
From that time on when she treed with other dogs she would circle the tree and stay our of trouble when she got next to the other dogs she sounded like she was blowing BUT she never turned her head towards the other dog. As long as nothing bothered her she wouldn't start anything. BUT SHE SURE WOULD END IT IN A HURRY!!

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Posted by buck brush on 04-02-2015 02:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
HERES A TWIST..
waking to the tree you hear a fight, when you get there they are all treeing fine but one dog is bloodied, so you know that dog was in the fight. Do you scratch that bloody dog because you know he was in the fight?
I doubt many will say yes because they didnt see that dog being aggressive, now reread the original post.

John why would you even think about scratching the dog with blood on it I have never seen one bite it's self , not saying it did not deserve to be bloody .

heck a few years ago I was hunting Walker days walked into 4 trees in a row and my female was pumping blood never heard anything never seen anything, there was only 2 dogs left in cast and they where both females, I with drew her and the mean dog got to hunt by her self for over a hour , won Walker days NTCH with 1475plus.

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Posted by buck brush on 04-02-2015 02:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
If you put dogs on the tree one at a time it don't matter If it's the first aggressor or not any dog at any time that shows aggression is scratched bad break but it's like when I was a kid if nobody wouldn't fess up dad whooped all of us !

all you are doing is asking for trouble doing something like this, a good judge would never let this happen

Posted by Richard Lambert on 04-02-2015 02:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
NOT TRUE. I had a walker female that would not start any crap but she sure wouldn't take any either...

when we got to the tree she had her butt to the tree and was looking for the other dog to come into the tree.

From that time on when she treed with other dogs she would circle the tree and stay our of trouble when she got next to the other dogs she sounded like she was blowing BUT she never turned her head towards the other dog.

As long as nothing bothered her she wouldn't start anything. BUT SHE SURE WOULD END IT IN A HURRY!!

Oh my goodness, now that sounds like at the least a very agressive dog and maybe even a mean dog. Now how in the world do you know that she didn't start any trouble unless you were standing at the tree watching her? Maybe you just didn't see her "start any trouble". If nothing else, it sounds like she had a big chip on her shoulder and was just looking for any excuse to whup another dog.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 04-02-2015 02:59 PM:

All right, what if 3 dogs are treed. While you are walking into the tree, you hear a fight break out. The fight ends and all of the dogs go back to treeing before you get there. Do you scratch all 3 of them or none of them? I was on a cast once where this happened and 2 of the handlers were friends. They scratched the 3rd dog and not theirs because they said that they knew that their dogs weren't mean.

Posted by H. L. Meyer on 04-02-2015 03:34 PM:

Like I said earlier

MAN UP SCRATCH UM BOTH BAR BOTH DOG AND HANDLERS AND MOVE ON. but nobody will do it though. remember what everyone is saying this day and time ( NOT MY FAULT SOME BODYS ELSES FAULT) " BY GOLLY MY DOG WON'T START NOTHING ... BUT....IT SURE AIN'T GOING TO TAKE NOTHING EITER"

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Posted by gdo on 04-02-2015 03:46 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: fighting

quote:
Originally posted by DylanHovey
We still are talking about coon hunting, right? All I can tell you is if your going to hunt in these hunts you better have one that will stay or you won't win a whole lot. Mean dogs have been around forever and I doubt they are going anywhere.

I was at that same hunt and a rough one covered mine the first night and it rattled her a good bit for the rest of the night but she stayed. I truly believe it cost me the cast. I didn't get on these boards crying about it though. Sometimes you have to just have to suck it up.

After all... They are all still dogs.

You hit the nail on the head.

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Posted by anycolor4us on 04-02-2015 05:39 PM:

LOL

,,,,,uh,,huh,,,sure

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Posted by gdo on 04-02-2015 06:27 PM:

Re: LOL

quote:
Originally posted by anycolor4us
,,,,,uh,,huh,,,sure

sent you a pm

Posted by Greg Burks on 04-02-2015 06:49 PM:

It's like telling a lie if you tell the truth you don't have to remember what u said....go strickly by the rules as they are written end of story. ..

Posted by john Duemmer on 04-02-2015 07:18 PM:

Im well aware that UKCs position is that when there is a fight and the aggressor can not be determined that both dogs are to be scratched.
In the original post there is no indication that the redbone did anything wrong except get jumped but we scratch both dogs. I have also heard the reasoning behind this being that the victim will probably never get another scratch so it doesnt really matter.
My point is you may well destroy the value of a good dog that was not at fault. If you are considering buying a dog and find out the dog has been scratched for fighting, i bet most folks walk away.
I have been to hunts where after the casts were drawn someone would walk up and whisper watch out for so and so that dog has been scratched for fighting
No one wants to hunt against an aggressive dog but i think some common sense needs to be used before droppin the scratch hammer, its usually not that tough to figure out which dog is trouble.

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Posted by blackflagginit on 04-02-2015 11:04 PM:

I will throw another twist here. lets say by the powers of the coon hunting god, the 4 meanest rattlesnakes that ever sucked coon scent through a dog nose draw out togather in the same cast.

those 4 "jockey for position" on trees all night. its a blood bath, but no dog leaves a tree or rolls on the ground with another the entire night. in fact they sound like they never miss a bark. 4 handlers get mauled, and 4 dogs eat everything within reach.

UKC says we have to have a) aggression (we have that) AND b) interference (do we?). interference WITHOUT aggression isn't grounds for scratching (that's why we cant scratch face barkers or tree jackers). aggression WITHOUT interference isn't either.

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Posted by Billy Beckham on 04-02-2015 11:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blackflagginit
if its my cast, the bluetick is scratched and the redbone is under the microscope for the rest of the night (just in case).

we only saw BOTH of the requirements for scratching for fighting from 1 dog here.

if the bluetick isn't truly mean, one scratch isn't going to do much damage. if it was the redbone who started it and just got a "come to jesus meetin" for its trouble, then it will prob do something else while under that microscope that night to get a free ticket home too.

I have been there and had to scratch my OWN dog, knowing without a doubt it wasn't the one who started it. I also knew that it wasn't that big a deal because it wasn't likely to EVER get another scratch for it again. It never did btw.

our hounds are supposed to be like monks. even in the face of aggression they are not supposed to fight back. Hard to do sometimes but that's just the way it is.

There is no rule saying we warn anyone, you scratch both

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Posted by Stan Ferrell on 04-03-2015 12:22 AM:

Yup, It's easier to find Bigfoot than it is to find a mean dog on Sat. nite.

Posted by msinc on 04-03-2015 01:49 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by blackflagginit
I will throw another twist here. lets say by the powers of the coon hunting god, the 4 meanest rattlesnakes that ever sucked coon scent through a dog nose draw out togather in the same cast.

those 4 "jockey for position" on trees all night. its a blood bath, but no dog leaves a tree or rolls on the ground with another the entire night. in fact they sound like they never miss a bark. 4 handlers get mauled, and 4 dogs eat everything within reach.

UKC says we have to have a) aggression (we have that) AND b) interference (do we?). interference WITHOUT aggression isn't grounds for scratching (that's why we cant scratch face barkers or tree jackers). aggression WITHOUT interference isn't either.

Aggression without interference????? But we have a "bloodbath"????? Handlers get mauled???? Without interference?????
It has to be me....I am definitely missing something here!!!!

Again, you do not have to see any of this to scratch a dog or in this case the entire cast for fighting. Have you ever minused a dog for leaving the tree???? When you did was it because you saw him do it, or you heard him do it {like the rest of the coon hunting world}?????

Posted by Fisher13 on 04-03-2015 04:30 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by blackflagginit
I will throw another twist here. lets say by the powers of the coon hunting god, the 4 meanest rattlesnakes that ever sucked coon scent through a dog nose draw out togather in the same cast.

those 4 "jockey for position" on trees all night. its a blood bath, but no dog leaves a tree or rolls on the ground with another the entire night. in fact they sound like they never miss a bark. 4 handlers get mauled, and 4 dogs eat everything within reach.

UKC says we have to have a) aggression (we have that) AND b) interference (do we?). interference WITHOUT aggression isn't grounds for scratching (that's why we cant scratch face barkers or tree jackers). aggression WITHOUT interference isn't either.

I'm going to take a stab at the point flag is trying to make. Aggression in dogs starts much earlier then the point of rolling around the ground or for the sake of our discussion the sound of a fight. Some one previously wrote the rules are rules, it simple. I think flag is making the point that the rules are so poorly written on this subject. That a dog can be very aggressive but without the dog interfering there is little the judge can do.

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Posted by Fisher13 on 04-03-2015 04:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
NOT TRUE. I had a walker female that would not start any crap but she sure wouldn't take any either.. One night pleasure hunting another dog started a fight with her. We heard them fight for a bit then went back to treeing, then another fight then back to treeing then a third fight. After that one only my dog went back to treeing, when we got to the tree she had her butt to the tree and was looking for the other dog to come into the tree.
From that time on when she treed with other dogs she would circle the tree and stay our of trouble when she got next to the other dogs she sounded like she was blowing BUT she never turned her head towards the other dog. As long as nothing bothered her she wouldn't start anything. BUT SHE SURE WOULD END IT IN A HURRY!!

OK, looks like my assumptions are wrong. I can see this situation making a lot of sense with a young dog being the overly excited pup, and older hound offering a dose of correction.
Thanks for the insight.

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Posted by Fisher13 on 04-03-2015 04:50 AM:

Re: fisher

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
part of the narrow sighted look you have here is your thinking bout your dog and how it would be with her. all dogs are different. yes the non aggressor can come out on top easy and quick.

Yeah I kinda thought that as well...

__________________
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Mark Twain

Posted by msinc on 04-03-2015 11:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher13
I have never judged a cast so I'm not sure what I would do.
That said, with the all junk some of these guys bring to a hunt I sure would be angry, if my dog gets jumped and lays down,submits appeasing the aggressor and killing the fight before it starts, then my dog gets scratched?

So I would ask how often does the non aggressor end up on top of the aggressor and pin it to the ground. If the non aggressor doesn't flee, (leave the tree) avoid or lay down and submit, but ends up on top. I would question why shouldn't this dog be scratched? So common sense would tell me, more times then not the aggressor is the dog on top, and if not I would question how the non aggressor got on top because clearly it mush have some experience fighting others dogs to get in that position.

If my above statement is true that the majority of the time the aggressive dog is the dog on top, which I believe to be true. I don't see how we can logically decide to scratch the redbone.

I don't have a lot of experience with seeing dogs fight so my opinion could change but I would think the non aggressor typically would lay down or leave.

I have seen my share...fortunately dog fights are not too common these days. From what I have seen the scenario where the typically non aggressive dog ends up looking like the bad dog and getting scratched for it happens more often than it seems like it should.
In my experience it seems like to me this happens more often with females, but it can happen with males too. What I have seen several times is a female that is non aggressive, but a good hard tree dog getting badgered or bullied by another dog at the tree. Usually it is nothing more than face barking or running around the tree and crowding the first dog. She feels threatened and does something about it.
I believe this is instinct with the females and the same type of natural reaction when they are in heat and gathering males attention, but not quite ready to breed. Every male that tries gets quickly put in his place.
Some dogs, males included just act this way all the time...if another dog tries them they react. In doing so many times they get scratched...if the rules are followed and applied properly. Sad thing is that these same dogs will not bother a fly as long as it don't bother them.
This is the main reason why UKC does not bar a dog for fighting once...it can happen to the calmest, coolest dog. But three times...now we have to consider is it really the rest of the world?????

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