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-- Silent track dogs in UKC hunts???? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928411924)

I got a silent tree dog can we tweak the rules a little so I can tree him off my garmin ? Lmbo

quote:

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Originally posted by J.J Melin
If judge takes your strike at all in the hunt at no time during the hunt can he scratch you for a silent dog. By taking that call he acknowledges your dog has struck. Id take a quiet dog over a babbler hands down.

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Stupidity: lacking normal intelligence.
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6. SCRATCHING OFFENSES
Dog Related Offense:
(a) If a dog has accumulated a total of 400 minus.
(b) For fighting or attempting to fight* during the
authority of the Judge. When the aggressive
dog is known, scratch the aggressor only. If
not known, scratch dogs involved.
Withdrawing to avoid dog being reported for
fighting is not permitted.
(c) Failing to make an attempt to hunt within any
15 consecutive scorecard minutes.
(d) Bitches smelling strong enough to attract
dogs, or a dog that is just bad to bother*
other dogs
(e) If dog is continuously silent on trail.
(f) For delaying completion of cast for one hour
after time out is called during the hunt in
accordance with Rule 7.
(g) In Nite Champion and Grand Nite Champion
casts, for running, treeing or molesting off
game during hunting time including any time
out periods prior to the expiration of hunt
time. Exception: 5(b).
(h) For running or molesting livestock.
(i) For hunting over or under the advertised hunt
time.



So as long as the accused silent dog is getting at least 3rd one time in a hunt then he or she can't be scratched. This is how I understand it.

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Some folks like to use the term "continuous" to mean throughout the duration of the 2 hour hunt. I see no where in the current rules as they are written, that says "continuous" means the full two hours of hunt time. Continuous can mean any length of time deemed acceptable.

Why do we not have the option of interpreting the term "continuous" to mean more than one track in a two hour period, or more than two tracks in a two hour period. I should have just as much right to my interpretation of the word continuous as anybody else, when the rule is not explicitly defined.

Therefore I STILL believe our rules committee should put more teeth into this rule and more definitively define what should be considered silent on track. I have said for the past 20 years this rule needs more teeth, but I guess Im not complaining strong enough and/or to the right people, lol.

I know some will say why should my exceptionally good layup dog get punished for treeing three straight layups without throwing a track bark. I will admit that might happen once in a blue moon, but that is not the norm. Lets just mark that up to a bad break, just like we do when a dog trees a coon and the cast sees the coon jump out before the dogs are handled. When the dogs take off they get minused for leaving a tree. doesn't happen very often, but it does happen. Just like it happens that an open trailing dog can tree three layups without a track bark, but it doesn't happen very often.

I say if the rules are written to identify (silent) on track to be an absolutely scratchabe offense, i.e.; unwanted/unacceptable trait, then we should be doing more to eliminate that trait in our dogs. If it is not to be seen in that perspective then remove the language from the rules and move on. But putting our heads in the sand and say it isn't so because my dog opened once, on one track, in a two hour hunt, is totally an unacceptable way to approach the intent of the rule that is currently on all UKC score cards.

Thats my opinion, and that doesn't count for much, LOL!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Seeker
Not true, dogs must be struck before can be called treed. It used to be if you treed your dog before you struck it you were scratched. The rule was changed a few years ago and the judge can't take a treed call until the dog is struck. A good lay up dog may tree a coon on a night hunt and never open on the track, it still has to be struck. The rule says continuously silent on track.Example: first coon, dog A trees a layup, struck and treed 1st and 1st dog receives 225+. 30 minutes later Dogs B,C,and D are running a hot track Dog A doesn't open dog B hits a tree and dog A is right there and is called (struck) and treed right behind dog B's tree call. The judge took a (strike ) call on the first tree from dog A. The judge could now scratch dog A because 2 coon and never opened on the ground. You as handler of dog A can bring it back to the MOH, but I don't think you would win. JMO.

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rocketman55. i agree. opening one time on one track in 2 hrs is not continuosly opening on track, an whoever said that dog located before treed. that is not a track bark whyen a dog locates he is standing on the wood. alot of people talking bout babbler dogs an llose mouth track dogs. yes there out there an ive hunted with alot of them.. but everybody at the local hunts i go to does not strike on there loose mouth barking. they know there dog.. everybody hunts what they like. if you want a still mouth dog then by all means hunt it.. but it will catch you in the hunts.. when you get scratched for it an you complain to master of hounds an judge says he barked one time then 600 yrds later barked treed. or he says he struck on locate an treed on next bark .. moh is gona say thats the judges responsability.. if you read rules judge has all athority in night hunt except on scoring a tree. goin back to a previously scored tree

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Hunting Judge Cast: The following procedure must be followed when using Hunting judges on a cast, regardless of category. Situations not questioned and notated at the time Judge’s decision is made, will not be considered.
1. The Hunting Judge has complete authori- ty and will be responsible for scoring all situations.
2. Should a situation arise where a handler questions a call that was made, or a call that should have been made but wasn’t, that handler may ask to have his question voted on by all cast members that remain with the cast at that time.
3. Each handler must vote or their dog will be scratched. It takes a majority vote to over- turn judge’s decision. Any handler that is not satisfied with the outcome retains the right to place a question mark (?) on the card and present his question to the MOH/

Question? I agree when given the card the judge is in control. I have judged at nearly every major event there is in UKC,$KC, and the new $HKC. Sometimes I was a hunting judge sometimes I was a non hunting judge. I by no way am perfect with a card but try to be fair and impartial in all situations. But,just because that judge has the card does not mean he is THE MAN. He or She is to keep accurate time,pace of cast,score recording , going into tree first,telling to handle dogs,making decisions ALONG WITH THE GROUP. A person as a hunting judge can bring up the scratching of a dog,at that time it is voted on in the woods. If judge and one agree you pretty much are scratched. MOH not gonna over rule. But,if just judge wishes to scratch and vote is 3-1 for not scratching Dog is still in the hunt. To say judge has complete authority is a little over zealous.

If I am wrong please explain to me because I have judged a lot of cast wrong.

I like these type post. It gives us lots of scenarios what ifs. I have learned that most any scenario can arise in a dog competition so none are to outlandish to suggest.

By having these type post it allows for novice and seasoned hunters to brush up on rules. Sometimes we need continued education.

It actually makes us better handlers to allow us to know what is going on at all stages of the game.

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I agree there are a few grey areas,I still feel they have those in there to allow any type of dog to be entered. There needs to be more teeth in several rules.

Under the hunt director format with the panel like $KC, it is now easier to have a scratch overturned than it once was. Used to,MOH went with judge,now you can explain to that panel what happened. The panel can deliberate on all handlers testimony and I feel come back with a fair assessment of the situation.

But,at the end of the day it's just a coon hunt. To get bent out of shape over a dog,in my opinion is crazy. Some of us at times get to serious and say or do things that jepardizes or ruins friendships forever. A dog is not worth that. No person tries at this game harder than I,but I will not get huffy over a call or outcome. It adds no length to my days on earth,no money to speak of to my family. It is an addiction we all share and get to enjoy with other houndsmen/women

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quote:

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Originally posted by J.J Melin
What im saying is if the judge takes you striking call then he can not scratch you later for a silent dog.Obviously i know you cant tree your dog before you strike it.

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what this boils down too is if a dog barks one time an the goes 400 or 500 yrds an falls treed how many gona say that the dog opened on track.. im gona call no. one bark does not make track .. an im not saying a dog has to bark 500 times on track. cuz most of them dogs is barking becuz there is a dog in front of them.. some say they dont care were coon come from they only care were its at.. we hunt this sport to have best dog strike an tree coons.. right or wrong. thats y every association out there has strike an tree points... right

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How many times does it have to bark? It needs to be a set number. If a dog opens on ground one or two barks skipping country and falls treed he is not silent under the current rules in place. If he falls treed all night he is silent. I agree two barks does not warrant a track in my opinion but opinions we are not judging. We are judging according to the rules set forth by UKC. Under them unless they state a number of barks then one,two,or 75 is legitimately struck and open. It's just like wording in a law. Wording and application is everything.

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shouldn't be to hard to beat a silent dog.25-50 on strike if it gets every 1st tree still only 150 of 225 possible.

If you can win with a babbling dog why not a silent dog I had lot rather hunt with a silent dog than a dog that babbles from time you put him in dox till you get back home o but he's a 1 st and 1 st type dog balling all over the woods waiting on silent dog to find him a coon to tree.

any good judge by no later then the 3 turn out should know what every dog in the cast sounds like , usually by the end of the first turn out I know what the dogs sound like when I judge, so if you are striking your dog and treeing it right after you better hope I hear it open on track with other then a locate.

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I hear "STRIKE AND TREE X-DOG" all the time. I don't remember seeing one get scratched for it yet. I could give two sh!ts less if your dog is silent. If there's one rule I think should go by the wayside it's that one. like allot of these people are saying that dog is actually at a disadvantage as far as score goes.

why do we have strike an tree points.. we have them cuz a coon leaves a track from were he was to were he is at now.. you must srike a track an tree a coon.. we can inturperat the rules any way see fit.. if you are gona fight about your dog barking one time an them 600 yrds later fall treed when someone elses dog runs same track opening an the say you got a still mouth dog then obviously you are in comp hunts for wrong reason.. i hunt in hunts to win but i also do it for the sport..

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Walker man if they open at all on the ground I would say that they opened would you not just like the min every time you cut loose if we Goin do away with tight mouths then you would loose half or more of entry's if we done away with min same thing so what we have to do is accept that everybody likes dogs different cause if we was Goin to change anything I would like to go back to the old way and only have a min on the first drop after that strike on or before the third bark the rest of the night see I like mine tight cause they tend to be more accurate have less dens they also stay out of trouble more in the hunts if mine opens when smell a track then don't open again till they tree as long as the 8 don't get me they ain't nothing anyone can say

is what it is..

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Re: Silent track dogs in UKC hunts????

quote:

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Originally posted by rough country
Just wondering if a person can win with them this ones about 98% silent on track. I know its a dumb off the wall question ....
Lol at least I wouldnt be getting 1st strike all night with a babblen retard

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I personally don't want to take a dog to a hunt on Saturday that I can't stand hunting during the week. A hound should open on a track that it feel it can pursue and bark according to it. The amount of barking or type should change as the track gets hotter or closer to the game. I wouldn't want to hunt a dog that barks once, and falls treed. If I just wanted to listen to a dog bark, I could open my window and listen to the neighbors yard dog bark in the kennel. If winning hunts meant that I had to take a silent dog and argue the whole night with the cast and maybe the master of hounds at the end to get that win, it would get old fast. The reason there is some many problems with babblers, silent dogs, slick trees etc, is because no one wants to stand up to these guys with these dogs and have a 2 hour b@@ch session. I hunt my hounds to relax and have fun, not to argue every loop hole and gray area in the rule book so a handler can carry their dog for a win. If another registry allows your type of dog to compete in that format, hunt that registry then.

But that is your opinion as long as it open at all their is no gray area nothing to argue and as far as just hearing a dog bark that the way I feel about a dog barking every breath but as stated above in other post we ain't judging my opinion or yours we are judging the dogs for the rules set forth by ukc not mine or yours

quote:

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Originally posted by JDBROWN865
Walker man if they open at all on the ground I would say that they opened would you not just like the min every time you cut loose if we Goin do away with tight mouths then you would loose half or more of entry's if we done away with min same thing so what we have to do is accept that everybody likes dogs different cause if we was Goin to change anything I would like to go back to the old way and only have a min on the first drop after that strike on or before the third bark the rest of the night see I like mine tight cause they tend to be more accurate have less dens they also stay out of trouble more in the hunts if mine opens when smell a track then don't open again till they tree as long as the 8 don't get me they ain't nothing anyone can say

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I have 2 dogs here that do not open much at all on the ground during the hunts that are less than 30 degrees. Are they silent? No, both have won their fair share in the hunts and we're not questioned even once of being silent track dogs!

We've done it here in pa a few times over 1000 with 25-50 strike all night.

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advantage

After reaing post after post after post about how if you cant beat a silent dog you must not have much dog power i must point out one GREAT advantage the silent dog has.The handler absolutely doesnt have to determine if the dog located or just opened on track.The second he hears the dog BARK he knoes he is treed.This takes away all the problem of hearing the dog over the other dogs in the cast.

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That is a very good point but I would counter that with saying while my dog has a beautiful mouth he actually has a terrible locate he usually just rolls into a chop so a dog with a real yodle of a locate also has an advantage over me. It's still beholden to me to know my dog and how to call him. I not going to blame silent dogs yodlers or anything else but my own calling when I get beat to a call. A good example would be just the other night dogs were way deep, I really felt the only dog that could be heard was my own dog. For some stupid reason I decided to just walk with the cast until somebodyelses dog could be heard. The judge chose to tree his, well guess what I lost that hunt by that call. "Nobody's fault but my own"