UKC Forums - For Breeders ( Discussion)

Pages (4): « 1 2 [3] 4 »
Show all 92 posts from this thread on one page

UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- For Breeders ( Discussion) (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928407844)

Posted by rthompson on 02-09-2015 11:49 AM:

But the fact that your breeding for what you want and not whats hot is the key im a bricklayer and the old man that taught me said once that if we let the money get ahead of the quality we have lost the battle and we are no good to anybody in other words our salt has lost its flavor so pitch it in the dirt.

Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 02-09-2015 12:17 PM:

Want every one to know I am not trying to be a know it all and this is how You must do it, just trying to pass along what I have learned thru the years in breeding.
Hope it helps some to think outside the box, would love to see young breeders hunt there line of dogs and be proud of the work they put in.
Having different lines is a great tool in breeding.

How about Environment? What do you guy's think about that?
This is a discussion among hound breeders and each has his own opinion, please respect that.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Posted by rthompson on 02-09-2015 12:39 PM:

I think enviornment has more to do with getting the most out of a pup but if a pups got it they will turn out in a desert.

Posted by msinc on 02-09-2015 03:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
Want every one to know I am not trying to be a know it all and this is how You must do it, just trying to pass along what I have learned thru the years in breeding.
Hope it helps some to think outside the box, would love to see young breeders hunt there line of dogs and be proud of the work they put in.
Having different lines is a great tool in breeding.

How about Environment? What do you guy's think about that?
This is a discussion among hound breeders and each has his own opinion, please respect that.

I "think outside the box" a lot...truth is, I probably do it cause I am dumber than the average bear. I cant even begin to think about figuring anything out about this whole breeding thing. As far as environment goes, it seems to me that environment can play a big role in getting a dog or line of dogs recognized...but that is about it. What I mean is that you can take a litter of puppies and get all of them in the hands of idiots and the best bred, most promising pups wont amount to nothing and no one will know anything about them because the owners ruined every one of them. But, they still are what they are from a blood standpoint. Consider it another way...think about what it was that led us to own the dogs we currently have...now think about this, if every last dog in our current owned dogs pedigree was kept in a cage, never let out, just fed and watered and bred at the right time, never put in the woods, never seen a coon much less put in a UKC hunt, we would still have the exact same dogs we have now with all the same abilities. Point being, you have to see "environment" for what it really contributes.
As far as "line breeding", from what I see we need to think about this, guys are worried about line breeding the last couple generations...but if you go back 6 or 7 generations you will see so many of the same dogs. Today, with many strains it is no longer line breeding, it's flat slap inbreeding. With some breeds you don't have to go back that far to see all the same dogs, and we all know the kinds of things we will see when they are bred too tight...shy, kennel pacing, bark for hours at nothing, no brained, slick {squirrel}treeing knot headed idiots. You can see it in their eyes when they are 6 months old, and most don't take that long. Just be careful when you think you are line breeding, it might have gone long past that.

Posted by Fisher13 on 02-09-2015 04:21 PM:

I bought a line bred pup, from a well known line, half brother half sister cross. The dog was nuts, supposedly he went on to tree coon and started as an all natural, but I didn't think much of him. He was super smart, but was just crazy wired, crazy eyed, never stopped tweaking. Most of my dogs didn't like him, and I took that as a sign, he wasn't right. The odd thing was he had a very high level of working intelligence, and he was really easy to communicate and train with.

It seems to me a lot of times to much of a good thing is not always a good thing.

As far as traits go, I think often times that has more to do with who the owner is, different hunters value different traits. Understanding what your breeding, and explaining your self clearly, so that new owners know what to expect goes a long ways. Honesty in another words.

For example if a well known stud dog throws great looks, big beautiful locates, great temperaments, natural starters, fast track dogs, but a lot of the pups aren't naturally accurate. This should be explained by the breeder or stud dog owner to the future pup.

Hiding these things, is inappropriate and inexcusable just as much as the sucker who actually thinks he is breeding to a perfect dog. I don't believe in a perfect dog,and any one that does is an idiot. Anyone selling this idea is an idiot.

If the buyer of pups and breeder of the pups can communicate openly and honestly, all will be better pleased with the results. I think this a big advantage of working with one line, if you or another are conversing about a line both hunters know very well, they both already know the weaknesses and strengths, and what to expect. This would naturally make a more satisfied pup owner and breeder.

I agree I think line breeding is a very important tool, and should be the foundation. Also as a general rule it is better to improve little by little then it is to try to do things to fast or take shortcuts. Stud dogs are often marketed as short cuts. Tortoise vs the hair, slow and steady wins the race.

__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

Posted by Larry Atherton on 02-09-2015 06:24 PM:

Science lesson for the day

The following concepts come from a book on canine genetics. The author is Willis 1989.

Let's look at this simple equation. R = S x (H2). R is the response to selection. S is the selection differential, and H2 is the heritability of desired traits.

What most dog breeders are attempting to do is increase the response to selection in their coon hounds. The thing is H2 is something we have no control over. It is what it is.

Therefore, the only way to increase R is to increase the selection differential. The only way to increase the selection differential is increase selection.

If we look at history and the events of today, the best breeders are those that know the most about the last 4 generations of their breeding stock. These same individuals are also very particular with the selection of their breeding stock.

The conclusion is simple. If we want better dogs we have to be more selective in our breeding stock. It really isn't rocket science.

__________________
Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-09-2015 07:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Knuckols
Around 1990 I bred a Lipper daughter to a Lipper son they were out of different Line of females . They had similar mouth nose hunting style etc . From that cross(6) 3 of the females made NTCH one of the males was stolen but was a nice hound another male was killed and I don't know what became of the other . I bred one of the females to Mark Whatleys New Moon which was distantly related but had similar traits and he also came from a very strong litter . From that cross of 6 pups we got 2 NTCH females and at that time the youngest dual grand male ever . I think the key to that success is we were line breeding dogs of similar traits that also came from strong litters . I was told a dog only produces the average of his/her littermates along with line breeding seems to be the way to go . Of Course we didn't make any money we mostly placed dogs with hunters .Lol Ive never made money in this sport , Someone is cause Im spending a ton . There is a local dog in my area that should be a great reproducer and that would be Josh Howards Train . He comes from an entire litter of Coon Dogs if someone had a close related female from a good litter that cross would be a safe bet

The true secret to line breeding is NOT in the pedigree...it is in the type. Until you have individuals that are similar, you are fooling yourself if you believe you are truly "line" breeding. The term comes from days gone by when people bred what they had for a particular reason...they like the color, the sound, the style..whatever, but they took similar, yet related individuals, and crossed them to get more of the same as they had....

Too many people are paper breeders and are not breeding for similar characteristics....

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by Mike Van Dusen on 02-09-2015 10:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
The true secret to line breeding is NOT in the pedigree...it is in the type. Until you have individuals that are similar, you are fooling yourself if you believe you are truly "line" breeding. The term comes from days gone by when people bred what they had for a particular reason...they like the color, the sound, the style..whatever, but they took similar, yet related individuals, and crossed them to get more of the same as they had....

Too many people are paper breeders and are not breeding for similar characteristics....

I agree with you, that is what I was saying in my post at the beginning of this thread,it's how they operate in the timber that counts.

__________________
"Some dogs will learn to tree a coon, others were born to!

"Coma Power"
"It's in the blood"
HOME- 219-326-7907
CELL-219-575-0067

Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 02-09-2015 11:11 PM:

Inbreeding is a technique used in selective breeding. In livestock breeding, breeders may use inbreeding when, for example, trying to establish a new and desirable trait in the stock, but will need to watch for undesirable characteristics in offspring, which can then be eliminated through further selective breeding or culling. Inbreeding is used to reveal deleterious recessive alleles, which can then be eliminated through assortative breeding or through culling.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Posted by psiskjr on 02-10-2015 04:12 PM:

Conrad you are a man after my own heart. I have been breeding my line for thirty years. I hunt what I breed and dont sell dogs. I primarily breed bear/boar dogs. My traits are in this order.

nose, cant run what you cant jump
speed, speed kills
tree, a must for bear dogs
grit, they gotta stay when it gets rough
intelligence, if they have the other four they are usually intelligent
looks, I like a pretty dog
color, dont care if they have all else

If and when I have to outcross I use a dog of similar breeding, all my dogs go back to the same ancestry. I never breed siblings though.

The main problem with breeding dogs is:

There are men with dogs and there are "Dog Men".
There's a lot more of one than there is of the other.

When you figure out which you are you will be way ahead.

Posted by Stan Ferrell on 02-10-2015 09:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by psiskjr
Conrad you are a man after my own heart. I have been breeding my line for thirty years. I hunt what I breed and dont sell dogs. I primarily breed bear/boar dogs. My traits are in this order.

nose, cant run what you cant jump
speed, speed kills
tree, a must for bear dogs
grit, they gotta stay when it gets rough
intelligence, if they have the other four they are usually intelligent
looks, I like a pretty dog
color, dont care if they have all else

If and when I have to outcross I use a dog of similar breeding, all my dogs go back to the same ancestry. I never breed siblings though.

The main problem with breeding dogs is:

There are men with dogs and there are "Dog Men".
There's a lot more of one than there is of the other.

When you figure out which you are you will be way ahead.

I confused now, Aren't you the same guy that was breeding birddog into his line in another post?

Posted by jay brademeyer on 02-10-2015 10:26 PM:

Lol

__________________
JAMES RIVER HOUND KENNEL
JAY BRADEMEYER 701 308 0490
Home of the late Ntch Lipper's Lip Lock Lizzy, Ntch Moonshiners Sassy, and 88 Walker Days Winner Grntch Ceder Hill Sass

"Building on a solid foundation starts on the bottom side"

Posted by psiskjr on 02-10-2015 10:57 PM:

Jay I am probably a lot older than you realize. I did my share of stupid stuff in my time. I have another thirty years in front of that thirty to do foolish things. And reread the post, I think at the end I said that my belief now was that if you had to cross breed you had the wrong dogs to start with. LOL

Posted by Sy Sparks on 02-10-2015 11:06 PM:

Bottom line guys is that there is only ONE man that knows what will work and that's God himself. It was the second thing I have ever learned hunting with dogs. Getting a pup is like buying a lottery ticket, you just never know. First thing I was taught was NEVER trust another coon hunter!

__________________
PKC Ch Power Line's Max
Power Line Zap

Check me out on Facebook

Posted by jay brademeyer on 02-10-2015 11:53 PM:

What did i do ? Lol .. I missed something. Lol

Posted by Sy Sparks on 02-11-2015 12:14 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jay brademeyer
What did i do ? Lol .. I missed something. Lol

I didn't even read all of this lol. I really only read the first couple replies so I thougt I would add that in here😊.

__________________
PKC Ch Power Line's Max
Power Line Zap

Check me out on Facebook

Posted by Stan Ferrell on 02-11-2015 12:18 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Sy Sparks
Bottom line guys is that there is only ONE man that knows what will work and that's God himself. It was the second thing I have ever learned hunting with dogs. Getting a pup is like buying a lottery ticket, you just never know. First thing I was taught was NEVER trust another coon hunter!

I liken getting a pup to shopping more than a lottery. It's like a history lesson reading 7 generation peds.
I have my favorite bloodlines like everyone else, but I know certain hounds within that bloodline that do it for me. When I hear of a breeding, I go shoppin.

Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 02-11-2015 01:00 AM:

We may need to start a post on buying pups, this one is on breeding them.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Posted by rthompson on 02-11-2015 01:30 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
The true secret to line breeding is NOT in the pedigree...it is in the type. Until you have individuals that are similar, you are fooling yourself if you believe you are truly "line" breeding. The term comes from days gone by when people bred what they had for a particular reason...they like the color, the sound, the style..whatever, but they took similar, yet related individuals, and crossed them to get more of the same as they had....

Too many people are paper breeders and are not breeding for similar characteristics....

this is another brilliant statement.

Posted by yadkinriver on 02-11-2015 02:29 AM:

Conrad Fryar

Use what you have learned. You appear to be smarter than most.

Posted by Chiggers on 02-11-2015 02:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
Inbreeding is a technique used in selective breeding. In livestock breeding, breeders may use inbreeding when, for example, trying to establish a new and desirable trait in the stock, but will need to watch for undesirable characteristics in offspring, which can then be eliminated through further selective breeding or culling. Inbreeding is used to reveal deleterious recessive alleles, which can then be eliminated through assortative breeding or through culling.

Copied and Pasted from this link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_inbreeding May as well let everyone read the good and bad

__________________
Perry Metcalf.. Go Big Blue !

Posted by David Morgan on 02-11-2015 02:59 AM:

Joe Newlin
The true secret to line breeding is NOT in the pedigree...it is in the type. Until you have individuals that are similar, you are fooling yourself if you believe you are truly "line" breeding. The term comes from days gone by when people bred what they had for a particular reason...they like the color, the sound, the style..whatever, but they took similar, yet related individuals, and crossed them to get more of the same as they had....

Too many people are paper breeders and are not breeding for similar characteristics

Amen preach it.

Posted by HowellN on 02-11-2015 05:24 AM:

I usually hold my tongue when this is discussed but I recon I'll let off some steam.
FIRST OF ALL, IT'S A "BREEDING" NOT A "CROSS". A cross would be a B&T bred to a Walker or a bird dog bred to a hound.

Second, the goal should be to raise the percentages of dogs with the desired traits. ie if you want pleasure hounds that pack well and end up with 75% of the litter that are "independent get gone" hounds, guess what, you failed.

Third, all of these different breeds of K9s have evolved into what we have today because of intense inbreeding and ruthless culling. We are just refining these breeds now to suit our wants. Most are just trying to make a buck.

If you've got Coma twice in the third generation that doesn't make him "Coma bred". He's only 25% Coma. That leaves 75% scatterbred. The 75% is where you get the unpredictable crap.

You can't achieve "hybrid vigor" by breeding scatterbred dogs.

Some people grasp breeding, some are blissfully ignorant, and some are too stupid to ever get it. Just because you take a bitch to a stud doesn't make you a breeder.

One last thing before I dismount this soap box. A prepotent stud is not a good "reproducer", he is a good "producer". No other genre of dogmen misuse "reproducer" and "cross".

__________________
The business of life is the acquisition of memories.

Posted by yadkintar on 02-11-2015 11:53 AM:

Y'all are getting to complicated !!! All I know to do is put two dogs together hope that it works try to make a good litter out of that breeding if it don't cull heavy and move on !!!!

Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 02-11-2015 11:56 AM:

Chiggers, Trying to keep it short and sweet, the problem is most do not understand "all" the good that can come from it, and only focus on the negative.
They think it is taboo, I see it as a means to improve on selection.
Taboo is what most people are breeding these days.
HowellN good post.
David Morgan, Hollar at me sometime.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:11 AM.

Pages (4): « 1 2 [3] 4 »
Show all 92 posts from this thread on one page