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-- Anyone else seeing this with cross bred Hounds?? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928401208)

X breed.......

I say it's a good thing that UKC is allowing this. If you don't want to Cross Breed, you don't have to, there will still be an over abundance of every breed that will be pure bred.

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quote:

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Originally posted by N Williams
I've got a plug your welcome to hunt with anytime you want. I bet you can't follow her all night. I've hunted with some of the winningest hounds of all time. She had more heart and moter than any walker I've ever seen.

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__________________
Home of..

RIP - GR.NT.CH. , PKC CH. AKC NT.CH. SPIDERMAN SAM.


Contact Kenney Clark - 330-738-3019 CELL- 330-205 3299

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Here is something about breeding I find very true. When you breed your dog you do so to get a litter of pups for a reason.
The reason could be to get yourself a replacement pup, it could be to sell the pups.
With that said all dogs have faults or things we wish they were better at. You are not going to water down the faults and get rid of them in one generation. Those faults will be there in some of the pups to come back and haunt you.
They say breeding for color is the easiest thing to do and you should be able to establish a color pattern in three generations of breeding. The color you don't like will still come back to haunt you occasionally but if you make the right choices (which you can see and that makes it easy) in the three generations of breeding, you can for the most part establish a color pattern.
Now because the genetic makeup of ability can't been seen or people see it differently it takes several generations of trial and error to produce the offspring you want. Problem is what happens to those that don't fit the mold. They should be removed for the breeding pool but they ain't. They are sold for someone else to worry about.

Re: .

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce M. Conkey
Here is something about breeding I find very true. When you breed your dog you do so to get a litter of pups for a reason.
The reason could be to get yourself a replacement pup, it could be to sell the pups.
With that said all dogs have faults or things we wish they were better at. You are not going to water down the faults and get rid of them in one generation. Those faults will be there in some of the pups to come back and haunt you.
They say breeding for color is the easiest thing to do and you should be able to establish a color pattern in three generations of breeding. The color you don't like will still come back to haunt you occasionally but if you make the right choices (which you can see and that makes it easy) in the three generations of breeding, you can for the most part establish a color pattern.
Now because the genetic makeup of ability can't been seen or people see it differently it takes several generations of trial and error to produce the offspring you want. Problem is what happens to those that don't fit the mold. They should be removed for the breeding pool but they ain't. They are sold for someone else to worry about.

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I totally agree that most ppl that breed for the x.bred are going to breed there dog to a walker...i hunt blue dogs but i didnt make that choice because my family has them im the only one in my family that coon hunts i have owned several walkers and ill always be hesitant to buy another one from what ive seen and bread they have bred the accuracy out of them and i know thats gunna affend somone but im speaking the truth and i think breeding to these other dogs may produce a very well balenced hound

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Standing at stud
ntch pr blue midnight bandit
willow springs mo
4172527165

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24/7 both your post make good sense to me but I think you have to expand it some.
You wrote
I wonder if you breed a top foxhound to say rat attack blood how they'd turn out all that hard running... range... an trackdriver with a tree dog I think it would work good
It would work but not to the level you need it to work in one generation.
Say you got the perfect young dog from your cross. It would not beed its likeness at a level you would be happy with. Several Generations of strict culling and breeding could produce the results you were looking for on a regular basis.

In your english/walker post. I would eliminate those two words and replace with with specific traits your looking for in your dog no matter where they came from. If one of the traits came from a beagle that would work too. Thing is you have to have strict breeding practices for several generation to get the results you really want. What you really want others may not agree and tend to stay away from. For the most part the pattern is already there in front of us with the dogs we have and most just draw from them.

Lets look at how we breed and lets look at breeding as trying to move a barge. How does someone move a loaded barge. They start out slow and they continue to gain speed until they are traveling at a safe speed. The safe speed depends on the area they are in which determines how fast they need to stop. You are not going to stop a heavy loaded barge traveling at top speed on a dime. It will take a course of its own.

We have done this with our hounds. Everyone that breeds a hound is part of the big picture and everyone of us are applying a driving force to the barge to get it moving.
Now there are specific people who breed specific breeds that are applying a force to that barge also. Some in a fashion to make it move faster and some in a fashion to keep it under control. Some that only breed their hounds and have strict breeding practices will break off from the main barge and chart their own course. They still started out as being part of the barge. Them reaching their destination will be determined by the path they take. No matter what path you or anyone else takes you cannot stop a barge on a dime with out blowing it up and eliminating it. You will never stop the movement and course of the total group of hounds or even the small barges that broke off with out eliminating them. All the genetics that move the direction our hounds go is in place. Time will change the course only elimination with stop the barge. If you have genetics in your dog pen that are not good for the safe movement of the barge, you know what you need to do with them. Don't keep applying pressure to the barge, it is already in deep water.

If you study the walker history you will see the studs that impacted the treeing instinct, Take Hardwood Bozo for instance not that far back 80's, why did they breed to him? He would hold a tree no matter what, staying power. Look at all the major crosses that came from one stud. On and on that trait was searched for.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

.

Ur exactly right bruce the breed is in deep water but the fact that the breed is so large and theres so many ppl out there that are just tryin to make money off of it instead of bettering the breed

__________________
Standing at stud
ntch pr blue midnight bandit
willow springs mo
4172527165

Bruce,
After some thought I understand more what you were getting at. Basically referencing breeders saying that we need to be careful about breeding dogs that may have been fixed up a little to much and weren't naturally that way.

I think in general the more we share Information with each other, we can learn and improve. Whether it be about breeding or training.

One of the things that I have found very ironic, with this sport. Is that what one guy may breed for another may be breeding against in the same breed. One breeder may like a colder nosed track oriented dog, and will cull a dog that isn't, but the next guy may breed for more tree power and less nose.

How does a breed move forward when 2 well known breeders are breeding more or less against each other?
I have also seen what a lot of guys may cull, another guy will like, or vice verse what one guy may hunt, I or another guy would cull.

__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

Re: .

quote:

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Originally posted by stevenbry86
Ur exactly right bruce the breed is in deep water but the fact that the breed is so large and theres so many ppl out there that are just tryin to make money off of it instead of bettering the breed

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__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

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Mr. Fryer that is how it works. What the breed thinks they need gets bred into the hounds. Problem is, with what is being bred in there also comes many other things that you may not want.
What has it been over the years has been defined by the hunts. What it takes to win is bred in.
1. Track Power
2. Tree Power
3. Deep Hunting Hound
3. Independence
4. Mouth

But with all those traits depending on what hound you choose to get them from comes other genetic traits. Many we do not want but over look to win this month or this year only to see our mistakes come back to haunt us by people just breeding pedigrees with BOZO etc in them and not breeding hounds with the BOZO etc traits we want. That is why BOZO and other top stud dogs come and go. The unwanted genetics that leak in are not eliminated from the gene pool. Just give me a set of papers with BOZO and I am happy is not the way to go. Give me BOZO bred dogs with the good BOZO brought to the table is the way to go.

Bruce you are preaching to the choir there, That is why I am stringent on breeding family's of hounds(linebreeding) and then outcrossing when need be to another linebred family.Trying constantly to weed out all unwanted traits.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

.

all those things are very important for sure and imo for the most part the walker breed has dominated all of those traits but what im more concerned about with the walker breed is accuracy these hounds are pulling up to quick to often and if u dont have a pair of eyes looking down at you you dont win hunts period....and im not saying there all a bunch of slick treeing idiots by no means..i have seen some incredible work done by walkers and i hope to own a good one one of these days but i think the walker breed as a whole is lacking majorly in that department

__________________
Standing at stud
ntch pr blue midnight bandit
willow springs mo
4172527165

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Fisher that is the beauty and the ugly of all this. We are all in the same boat and we pretty much do the same thing. Just some live below deck and some live above deck. The view is a lot better above deck and some right choices can and should get you above deck and make your journey better.
Coonhunters no matter what deck they are on are great people. With all this nonsense I write I am just trying to get one person to think and perhaps read or study dog breeding or dog training. If one person does that and it pays off for them or someone they share it with in the future, I have done my small part.
If one person reads what I write and says they will never do anything I say or suggest. They go a total different direction and have success then I have done my small part. All I am doing it trying to encourage people to chart a course. Chart that course for experience and learning from others, both the good and bad.

25/30 years ago and more we bred to tree dogs and bragged on dogs that were forevermore log chain pull pressure die on the wood intensified, pressurised ,TREE DAWGS... That's why dogs like yakkin tar rattler , nailor, rat attack and sacket jr. Became house hold names. Because they produced that tree power we all wanted.. Back in the day we used to beg and plead with our pups to tree. They all for the most part could run a track , and run them right..but man if you had a pressure tree dog.....you had a winner boys...and now after that intense drive to produce pressurised tree dogs,we are reaping what we have sewn .... I am as guilty as anyone..i thought i had enough track power in my dogs to last for 10 generations.... On second thought..lol...
...i said out a dozen years ago that everybody will be looking for track power again....but i will say this... We didn't breed that treedog into the walkers over night..it took awhile..and i dang sure can work with something split treeing before i can do any thing with one split tracking ..
..I wouldn't go back in time for anything bloodwise other than ole LIPPER.

__________________
JAMES RIVER HOUND KENNEL
JAY BRADEMEYER 701 308 0490
Home of the late Ntch Lipper's Lip Lock Lizzy, Ntch Moonshiners Sassy, and 88 Walker Days Winner Grntch Ceder Hill Sass

"Building on a solid foundation starts on the bottom side"

Im a walker man BUT I have a x bred 1yr old right now. I dont really know why but figured Id try him. I didnt figure the walker breed needed anything myself but hes half walker an half black an tan. I just wanna get coons treed as fast as possible. He will make a coon treer. How good of one. I dont know yet. Hes only a young started pup.

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Michael Ghorley

Jay I agree a 100%

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

.

Stevenbry 86 You are right but I don'tt think it is the Walker breed as a whole but the walker breed at different stages of their life. Something we are missing and it is a totally different subject. Dogs change as they age. Some of these changes are not for the good.
Some of these changes come when a dog is laid up and gets out of shape when bred or sharing hunting time with a young upcoming dog.

We are breeding for that one year and two year old hounds that are full tree power. Dogs at two are still going through stages and getting better or worse. Take that promising dog and lay it up by breeding it. Let that promising dog get fat and not hunted on a regular basis. You are asking for that dog to start slick treeing unless you stay on top of the situation. As they age they can get lazy. Lazy means they stop tracking and start treeing empty. So I don't feel it is the Walker breed as a whole but how the dogs in the Walker breed are handled throughout the different stages of their life. They are bred to excite us when they are young and embarrass us when they get old

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Jay or anyone else I have a question for you. First we have to agree on the question and I think we do.

Tracking ability gets the dog to the correct tree. If we agree, then either side of tracking ability, too much or not enough ends up with one of the following happening.

1. Dog that bogs down on tracks and don't tree.
2. Dog that bogs down on tracks and tree slick.

Without the right tracking ability you are going to have one of the above happening. Generally when feed times are not right for a good track or conditions are not right for a good track.

Which is easier to live with or correct.

Well i have never been able to train one to tree.. But i have made several turbocharged tree dogs tree more coons than trees..lol

__________________
JAMES RIVER HOUND KENNEL
JAY BRADEMEYER 701 308 0490
Home of the late Ntch Lipper's Lip Lock Lizzy, Ntch Moonshiners Sassy, and 88 Walker Days Winner Grntch Ceder Hill Sass

"Building on a solid foundation starts on the bottom side"

Re: Anyone else seeing this with cross bred Hounds??

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce M. Conkey
Past weekend in two different states at hunts I came across about the same situation and got me to thinking. Now before I go into detail the dogs I am talking about here are young but being hunted in the hunts so the movement I see had to start a couple years ago.

1. Talking to a man and he started talking about his Black and Tan. After a short period of time I asked him about the breeding and he said he was a cross bred and half walker.
I asked him why he called him a Black and Tan and not a Walker. He said he looked just like a Black dog and he always had Black dogs and that is what he hunts. I thought about the one for a minute. lol Anyway I asked him if he liked what the walker had to offer why didn't he just get him a walker. He said he liked Black dog and we left it at that.

2. Week later in a different state I ran into a guy talking about his Redbone. Please remember both these guys I have seen around the hunts for years and they are friends I meet on the road. But not close enough friends that I know all about their dogs and what they are breeding. I asked about the red dogs pedigree and it was half walker. Now this guy told me almost the same thing the first guy did on why he called it a Redbone.

Now both these breedings took place over two years ago so it is not something that just happened. Anyone else see this to any extent. I guess seeing it with the same story line two weekends in a row got me to thinking again.

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__________________
Tree Jar'n Black and Tans
Home of Tree Jar'n Coonhound Kennels


319-201-8445

quote:

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Originally posted by jay brademeyer
25/30 years ago and more we bred to tree dogs and bragged on dogs that were forevermore log chain pull pressure die on the wood intensified, pressurised ,TREE DAWGS... That's why dogs like yakkin tar rattler , nailor, rat attack and sacket jr. Became house hold names. Because they produced that tree power we all wanted.. Back in the day we used to beg and plead with our pups to tree. They all for the most part could run a track , and run them right..but man if you had a pressure tree dog.....you had a winner boys...and now after that intense drive to produce pressurised tree dogs,we are reaping what we have sewn .... I am as guilty as anyone..i thought i had enough track power in my dogs to last for 10 generations.... On second thought..lol...
...i said out a dozen years ago that everybody will be looking for track power again....but i will say this... We didn't breed that treedog into the walkers over night..it took awhile..and i dang sure can work with something split treeing before i can do any thing with one split tracking ..
..I wouldn't go back in time for anything bloodwise other than ole LIPPER.

---

__________________
Home of..

RIP - GR.NT.CH. , PKC CH. AKC NT.CH. SPIDERMAN SAM.


Contact Kenney Clark - 330-738-3019 CELL- 330-205 3299

Ive always scoffed at, and tried to bite my toung whenever folks start talking about genetics and breeding as though they had it all figured out.
Surely I will once again raise a few hackles with my thoughts ,but I aint skeered.lol

You can hunt every nite with different dogs all over this country and be lucky to see 5 really special hounds in a years time.
Therefore I have a very short attention span when someone starts telling me how to breed coonhounds.

I do have a hunch though, that you may increase the odds a bit of raising a truly special one when throwing in the hybred Vigor factor from a crossbred.

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Elvis wishing you a Merry Christmas.

quote:

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Originally posted by elvis
Ive always scoffed at, and tried to bite my toung whenever folks start talking about genetics and breeding as though they had it all figured out.
Surely I will once again raise a few hackles with my thoughts ,but I aint skeered.lol

You can hunt every nite with different dogs all over this country and be lucky to see 5 really special hounds in a years time.
Therefore I have a very short attention span when someone starts telling me how to breed coonhounds.

I do have a hunch though, that you may increase the odds a bit of raising a truly special one when throwing in the hybred Vigor factor from a crossbred.

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