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-- Allen/UKC/Jim (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928399469)

quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
Then tell us how multiple dogs can occupy 4th strike...

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__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

quote:

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Originally posted by runnin rebels
2(c)). Multiple dogs may occupy fourth position.


because it is plainly written on the back of the card

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"advisor page 21-22
Next Available?
Q: We have a big debate going on in West Virginia regarding the scoring of “next available position”. Basically, the question is this. In a three-dog cast, Dogs A, B and C are declared struck. Dogs A and B are declared treed and scored. Dog C is trailing, and Dogs A and B are turned in. When Dogs A and B are struck back in with C, will they be assigned 50 strike points or 25? Those arguing in favor of 50 points claim that you can’t have a fourth position in a three-dog cast. They claim that in a two-dog cast, 75 is the lowest point value that can be carried. What do you think? West Virginia
A: I think that, without doubt, someone who is the least bit convincing in their ability to discuss rule interpretations while out on a cast could probably pull this one off on occasion. But the truth is, the point schedule laid out in the Nite Hunt Honor Rules makes no reference to the claim that you only use as many strike positions as you have dogs in the cast. Excluding the one-dog cast, it’s quite possible to use all point values in any other cast. Let’s use the two-dog cast as an example.

Dogs A and B are struck for 100 (for dog that opens first) and 75 (for dog that opens second). Dog A is treed and scored and turned into Dog B. When he opens, Dog A gets the next available strike position, which is 50. Remember, you only have one set of strike points, and this is the third time a dog has been struck on this set of strike points. If Dog B is scored and turned back in, when he strikes it will be the fourth time a dog has been struck in on this set of points and he will go in for 25 because 50 is being held.

Keep in mind that if Dog A is holding 100 strike and Dog B is scored on a second strike/first tree coon, that Dog B will be turned back in for 75 because it is available again. Rule historians will remember way back when the old rules used to say, “Once a position has been minused, it becomes available again.” That was really an interpretation problem.

About ten years ago that rule was changed to read, “Once a position has been scored, it becomes available again.” Just thought I would throw that little tidbit at you in case you ever get asked that in a game of Trivial Pursuit!"

Here is the interpretation from "The Advisor". Runnin rebel was kind enough to type it out {or scan it} Thank you for that. Please read the third paragraph, especially note the part about the "one set of strike points." This was taken from a UKC publication. Why does the dog go back in for only 50 points??? In the fourth paragraph it explains that that dog in that scenario goes back in for 75 because the other dogs track and tree was scored.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by msinc
In writing is one thing, but tell us how...give us the scenario where multiple dogs would hold 4th... [/QUOTE

4 dog cast A B C D struck in that order... Aand B are treed and scored, C and D are still trailing so A and B are recast. Since c and d are carrying 50 and 25 respectivley, A and B will restrike for 25 because they can not be struck over another dog. in this scenario you have 3 dogs carrying 25 strike points.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
In writing is one thing, but tell us how...give us the scenario where multiple dogs would hold 4th...

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__________________
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Once a position has been scored it becomes available again UNLESS a dog is carrying a lower strike position.... thats the exception.

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Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

quote:

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Originally posted by john Duemmer
[QUOTE]Originally posted by msinc
In writing is one thing, but tell us how...give us the scenario where multiple dogs would hold 4th... [/QUOTE

4 dog cast A B C D struck in that order... Aand B are treed and scored, C and D are still trailing so A and B are recast. Since c and d are carrying 50 and 25 respectivley, A and B will restrike for 25 because they can not be struck over another dog. in this scenario you have 3 dogs carrying 25 strike points.

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quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
Why not just move C and D up to 1st and 2nd...that is what you did with the others??? Why can they not be moved up in this case??? is it because they cant be moved up in any case???

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__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
In writing is one thing, but tell us how...give us the scenario where multiple dogs would hold 4th...

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__________________
Ignorance: the lack of knowledge, education, etc.
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You can't fix STUPID!

quote:

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Originally posted by john Duemmer
?????????? I give up.

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__________________
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AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

I would really like Allen or Todd (or someone from UKC) to answer this question.

Jim the reason your name was included in the heading is...anyone that has been on this board for any length of time knows how well you know the rules and there interpitaton of them.

I ask again 3 dog cast. Dog A struck 100, a short time later 1 dog barks 1 time and 2 handlers strike their dogs. How do these dogs go on the card?

My belief is both dogs go on the card for 75. One dog receiving -75 and the correct dog 75 and scored according to what happens with the track. My reasoning for doing this is in my opinion the handler that made the mistake is getting 75- for calling the wrong dog and that is scored prior to correct dog being struck.......there for the wrong handlers position has been scored.

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Frank Manning
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Just hunting to have some fun.
Use only the Rules UKC has writen not the ones you think should be there!

i cant help myself

look at this new refresher from the front page...

Q: Do judges have the authority to not accept a strike or tree call by a handler?

A: Yes they do have the authority to not accept a call. Whenever a handler strikes his dog, be it a strike or a tree call, and the dog is not heard opening or treeing, then the call shall not be accepted. There is no penalty applied. Remember, telemetry may not be used to make any such determination.


what do they mean there is no penalty applied?

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Re: i cant help myself

quote:

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Originally posted by runnin rebels
look at this new refresher from the front page...

Q: Do judges have the authority to not accept a strike or tree call by a handler?

A: Yes they do have the authority to not accept a call. Whenever a handler strikes his dog, be it a strike or a tree call, and the dog is not heard opening or treeing, then the call shall not be accepted. There is no penalty applied. Remember, telemetry may not be used to make any such determination.


what do they mean there is no penalty applied?

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__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

so why wouldn't it apply to the original post ? here? the guy who struck his dog wrong dog is not heard.

__________________
GRNITECH PR. RUNNIN REBEL TCSC OLD BLUE 2012 World Hunt Qualified / Top 20
NITECH PR. THE RUNNIN REBEL COWBOY JR DOG 2012 World Hunt Qualified

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Ok, you're just not comprehending this and I learned a long time ago to just let them have it their way when it gets to this point. On a cast, I can handle you but not in here.

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Original question.........

Here's how I would score it- if they both struck on one bark then split second strike 62 1/2 each (same thing you would do if both dogs had barked and been struck at the exact same time.) then figure out who called the wrong dog and minus them. Sucks for guy who struck honest (he gets "cheated" out of 12 1/2 points) but I think that is the fairest way.

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Hey Jim Hello

I think there is one way in UKC where you can have two first place strike points. If a dog keeps a strike open for over an hour I think you go back in for 100 on your strike. I liked it better when it was two coons seen, in different trees. Please correct me if I am wrong. Hey Jim lets go hunting some time. I think I have one you will like.

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Frank, as I understand your scenario, it has zero to do with a strike position discrepancy therefore the option of splitting points as a resolution is not available.

100 is taken and held by Dog A.

The next dog that opens is declared struck by two different handlers but it was determined that only one dog actually opened. This means that one dog gets the called position of 75 and the other should be minused the position (75) per Rule 4(n), for calling the wrong dog.

The decision that needs to be made by the judge is; which dog is getting what? A: Make a call and follow procedures, should any handler question the judge's decision.

(For whatever reason 4(n) is listed under the "Tree Minus" section only. That same rule (4n) is also applicable under the "Strike Minus" section. When we did a categorization and rewording overhaul of the rules that specific rule should have been placed under both Strike Minus and Tree Minus because the intent of the rule was/is in fact to cover both.)

Re: i cant help myself

quote:

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Originally posted by runnin rebels
look at this new refresher from the front page...

Q: Do judges have the authority to not accept a strike or tree call by a handler?

A: Yes they do have the authority to not accept a call. Whenever a handler strikes his dog, be it a strike or a tree call, and the dog is not heard opening or treeing, then the call shall not be accepted. There is no penalty applied. Remember, telemetry may not be used to make any such determination.


what do they mean there is no penalty applied?

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Thank you Mr. Allen
I didn't think I was wrong but as you can see. Lots of debate over the way this should have been scored.

__________________
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(810) 347-5292
Home of
GrNtCh GrCh PKC Ch 'PR' Kate N Roys Demon Seed

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Just hunting to have some fun.
Use only the Rules UKC has writen not the ones you think should be there!

How would you score it if you never could tell what dog to minus

Re: Re: i cant help myself

quote:

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
runnin rebels, just so you know.... that is a "different" situation. It's unlike the scenario in the first post.

No dog was heard opening vs. One dog opened and two dogs were declared struck.

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__________________
GRNITECH PR. RUNNIN REBEL TCSC OLD BLUE 2012 World Hunt Qualified / Top 20
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quote:

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Originally posted by STROKIN
How would you score it if you never could tell what dog to minus

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__________________
Frank Manning
(810) 347-5292
Home of
GrNtCh GrCh PKC Ch 'PR' Kate N Roys Demon Seed

NtCh FCh CH 'PR' Just A Dog


Just hunting to have some fun.
Use only the Rules UKC has writen not the ones you think should be there!

Re: Re: Re: i cant help myself

Now we can strike a dog that isnt even heard and there is no penalty.

Dogs are cut loose and none bark then I strike in should get -100 but now there is no penalty!!! Awesome [/B][/QUOTE]


If there was a penalty associated in this case then we would need to implement a rule to penalize. It's nothing new bud.

MSINC

quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I don't need any help...happy to answer this.
.

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