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-- Dogs hopping tracks? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928398901)

quote:

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Originally posted by Dale Young
I'll vote for that and be disappointed if they didn't . I wanta see a coon and I'm not particular which one .

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when policemen ignore the law, then there isn't any law. there's just a fight for survival.

*billy jack

It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.

Robert E. Lee

Spot on Flag, sent ya a pm

__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

Here is the deal. In a cast "strike position" more often than not just means who ever opened there mouth first. Regardless of what the reason is. That's always been my problem with strike points. sure some minus happens........trash if they catch something or tree a possum ect.......babblers or other that don't strike a genuine track after and time gets the cast.......ect. but for the most part it gets a free pass when a LOSE is made.

Any time a dog switches a track.........switches to a DIFFERENT track im not talking about a true blue drifter here,that is a lose. a fault that by the rules SHOULD be minused. Problem is it almost never is. Any time a dog opens on a track (or babbles or opens on water or dog barks or any thing other than runs the track it opens on to a tree with THAT coon in it) and it does NOT TREE THAT EXACT COON IT STRUCK. that's a lose and minus. just doesn't happen much in a cast.

Different here at home. that little score card in my head I use every time I cast a dog scores all that as a minus. so of ol sounder opens......swaps or whatever and then restrikes and trees a coon. IN MY scorecard, he just has tree points left. If he skips or what ever 2-3-4-20 times that little score card reflects that.

so a lot of dogs that win big would minus out in "my hunt". Not all but a lot.

__________________
when policemen ignore the law, then there isn't any law. there's just a fight for survival.

*billy jack

It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.

Robert E. Lee

Preach brother couldn't agree more

__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

I'm no biologist, but I wonder if we're giving our dogs' noses too much credit. Dogs can certainly tell the difference between species, so they can tell the difference between a coon and an opossum or a squirrel. And they can tell the difference between a cold track versus a hot track, by how much scent there is, to be smelled, but I'm not sure (and I may be wrong) if they can tell the difference between one coon and another, if the tracks overlap.

I wouldn't compare this to a bloodhound tracking a person through a crowd, as people smell differently. Heck even a human nose can tell the difference between most people... different cologne, different laundry detergent, smoker versus non, what they had for lunch or even different B.O.! But coon are the same species, living in the same woods, sometimes even the same tree, eating the same food and drinking from the same stream.

IF coon in the same woods smell that much different, how different are they from state to state, and why don't we have to train a dog to run a northern coon versus a completely different smelling southern coon, IF that was the case???

Again, I'm not a biologist, but I just can't imagine a coon's scent being like a finger print, where a dog could know if he switched tracks, if tracks crossed paths and one track was as old (meaning same strength) as another. But maybe there's a biologist on here, that can correct me.

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Dave

I'm no biologist ether . BUT I know you are married and have kids, you all live in the same house, eat the same food (more or less) , if you was to smell all the people that live in your house I believe they all would have a different smell, do coon smell different I do not know for sure but I believe they do , I hope some one can help us with this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
I'm no biologist, but I wonder if we're giving our dogs' noses too much credit. Dogs can certainly tell the difference between species, so they can tell the difference between a coon and an opossum or a squirrel. And they can tell the difference between a cold track versus a hot track, by how much scent there is, to be smelled, but I'm not sure (and I may be wrong) if they can tell the difference between one coon and another, if the tracks overlap.

I wouldn't compare this to a bloodhound tracking a person through a crowd, as people smell differently. Heck even a human nose can tell the difference between most people... different cologne, different laundry detergent, smoker versus non, what they had for lunch or even different B.O.! But coon are the same species, living in the same woods, sometimes even the same tree, eating the same food and drinking from the same stream.



IF coon in the same woods smell that much different, how different are they from state to state, and why don't we have to train a dog to run a northern coon versus a completely different smelling southern coon, IF that was the case???

Again, I'm not a biologist, but I just can't imagine a coon's scent being like a finger print, where a dog could know if he switched tracks, if tracks crossed paths and one track was as old (meaning same strength) as another. But maybe there's a biologist on here, that can correct me.

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__________________
when policemen ignore the law, then there isn't any law. there's just a fight for survival.

*billy jack

It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.

Robert E. Lee

OK, I'll concede...

But, it will still boil down to whether you care if a dog finishes what it started, or you prefer it gets under a coon as quickly as it can.

Now that I'm hunting some public land in North Carolina, there have been several nights I wished my dog would just move on and find a hotter track!

And there are some, I'm sure, that would say he better finish what he started, and then get ticked off, when they're ground pounding that old feeder track that started at noon and went all over that creek bottom! So... to each, their own.

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

I dont know if we are capable of understanding how a dogs nose works. I read a study some years ago about how a dog can distinguish which direction a track goes. The study concluded that in order for a dog to accuratly pick the correct direction they needed the use of both nostrils, block one nostril and the direction choice would drop to 50%, they compared it to eyesight and the way we must have both eyes in order to have depth perception.
So they probably can tell one track from another but that doesnt necessarily mean they can distinguish one coon from another, just more or less scent.
Either way since i dont care which coon they tree as long as they get the job done quick i hope mine have enough brains to grab that hot track when the opportunity presents itself, I think most dogs do it and many hunters dont realize it when it happens.
I have on many ocasions seen a pack of coyote hounds cross a field right on a coyotes tail, push that coyote through a piece of timber without missin a beat and come out the other side runnin a different coyote....
Interesting topic.

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Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

quote:

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Originally posted by john Duemmer

I have on many ocasions seen a pack of coyote hounds cross a field right on a coyotes tail, push that coyote through a piece of timber without missin a beat and come out the other side runnin a different coyote....
Interesting topic.

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__________________
when policemen ignore the law, then there isn't any law. there's just a fight for survival.

*billy jack

It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.

Robert E. Lee

As I reread through this post (and it is an interesting topic) I think one thing some are doing is making assumptions on what a dog does or does not know, regardless of what they can or can't smell.

I think sometimes we're guilty of believing that dogs are capable of rational thought, same as humans, but they're not. They don't process information and think through choices and decisions like we do. And because of this, we may think they have "learned" something that they haven't.

Your dog may run and tree coon, but what were they really trained to do??? Were they trained to run and tree any coon? Were they "trained" to run and tree only the coon they started? If you believe so, how did you specifically teach them to do that??? Maybe some dogs do and some dogs don't, but I doubt he has anything to do with what or how we trained them...

I maybe wrong, but I've trained a lot of dogs and saw a lot of others train dogs, and I've never seen a lesson in "track this coon and not that coon, regardless of how hot or cold the track is"!

Just because a dog has the faculties to do something, and just because we've witnessed them do it from time to time, doesn't mean that's what they always do, or that we had any effect on training them to do so. I know many of us try our best, but there are so many environmental conditions, and variables going on in the woods, I don't know how we can be sure what we have or have not trained them to do, much less what they have "learned". They're smart animals, but we can't speak to them, so we don't really know!

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Fascinating discussion guys, I'm proud of this thread.

I would guess that most hounds can tell a difference in 1 coon to another,but depending on the level of drive and catch bred into a dog, the dog might not care or take the time to notice. I think in a perfect world a dog would remember where smelled the last one and go tree that one after he treed the first.

I also don't think because a dog would refuse to switch a track automatically correlates to a dog standing on its head. My best hound is a nose down straddler, and I don't believe she switches track often. If I lay her up for a awhile she will stand on her, but after a week or 2 heavy hunting, she is usually able to move out any track she comes across. I have also seen her put up some pretty cold trees with the meat in, that most other dogs never even smell the track. To me this ability makes up for any lack of speed she may exhibit on track. The odd thing with her is she usually looks her best when the conditions are the worst. Occasionally I have cut her loose from tree and she would immediately cut another track and go on to tree another coon 50 to a 100 yards away. I hope in a few years when she reaches her prime that she will be able to identify different tracks from different coon, and remember where they were at, so when she is cut loose from her first tree, she can go back to that track and tree that coon. However it is quite possible that those expectations may be a bit high and unattainable.

__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
As I reread through this post (and it is an interesting topic) I think one thing some are doing is making assumptions on what a dog does or does not know, regardless of what they can or can't smell.

I think sometimes we're guilty of believing that dogs are capable of rational thought, same as humans, but they're not. They don't process information and think through choices and decisions like we do. And because of this, we may think they have "learned" something that they haven't.

Your dog may run and tree coon, but what were they really trained to do??? Were they trained to run and tree any coon? Were they "trained" to run and tree only the coon they started? If you believe so, how did you specifically teach them to do that??? Maybe some dogs do and some dogs don't, but I doubt he has anything to do with what or how we trained them...

I maybe wrong, but I've trained a lot of dogs and saw a lot of others train dogs, and I've never seen a lesson in "track this coon and not that coon, regardless of how hot or cold the track is"!

Just because a dog has the faculties to do something, and just because we've witnessed them do it from time to time, doesn't mean that's what they always do, or that we had any effect on training them to do so. I know many of us try our best, but there are so many environmental conditions, and variables going on in the woods, I don't know how we can be sure what we have or have not trained them to do, much less what they have "learned". They're smart animals, but we can't speak to them, so we don't really know!

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__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

My thoughts and questions are probably more to do with what we are really "teaching" or training a dog, as it is about the dog's mental capacity.

From what I've seen, many houndsmen give very limited thought to their training and discipline decisions, but then get frustrated with the results.

To elaborate... many will teach them to lead and load, show them a coon or two, lay some drags, and then hunt them with the older dogs. And if we're lucky before long, they're running and treeing coon. But in this approach, we never taught them to swap tracks or not swap tracks, so who knows which approach they learned along the way.

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
My thoughts and questions are probably more to do with what we are really "teaching" or training a dog, as it is about the dog's mental capacity.

From what I've seen, many houndsmen give very limited thought to their training and discipline decisions, but then get frustrated with the results.

To elaborate... many will teach them to lead and load, show them a coon or two, lay some drags, and then hunt them with the older dogs. And if we're lucky before long, they're running and treeing coon. But in this approach, we never taught them to swap tracks or not swap tracks, so who knows which approach they learned along the way.

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__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

[QUOTE]Originally posted by deschmidt27
[B]

I think sometimes we're guilty of believing that dogs are capable of rational thought, same as humans, but they're not. They don't process information and think through choices and decisions like we do. And because of this, we may think they have "learned" something that they haven't.

Really, you do not believe what you posted? you do not think dogs can think things out, most dogs are smarter then most humans, I once had a person tell me dogs do not have a short term memory some people should not even be around dogs.

__________________
Skip Hartline
219-325-0914- H
CELL 219-898-5725


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Skip,

Perhaps you should think things through before, once again putting words in my mouth. I did not say dogs were not capable of "thinking". What I said, was that they're not capable of a rational thought process, like humans utilize. In fact, even some humans, are better than this than others.

If you do not know the difference between thinking and rational thought, you should look it up, before a response. Which would all be part of "rational thought"...

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Dave so you do not think dogs can rationally think things out. I do not have any thing more to say on this /

__________________
Skip Hartline
219-325-0914- H
CELL 219-898-5725


gone but will never be forgotten

PR Van Dusen's Hanna o/h
NTCH PR Buck Brush Little Maggie o/h
NTCH PR Buck Brush Little Mickey o/h
PR Buck Brush Copper o/h
D NTCH PR Crooked Oak Boss o/h
D NtCH PR Alford's Alibi h
NTCH PR Alford's Hatchet h
NT CH PR Mill's Dotty h

I believe science would argue that dogs do not have the same cognitive capacity as humans, and so yes, I can easily say that dogs to do not perform the same rational thought as humans. That's not to say that they don't think or have some cognitive abilities, but they don't rationalize like we do.

If they did, they would be burning that track down the creek bed, come across another track, and then start wondering if they should or should not switch tracks. They would pause and start to think about their training and what they've witnessed other dogs do, and then start to ponder whether Skip would or would not want them to do it. Because that's what the human mind processes, through our form of rationale thought.

We should thank our lucky stars that dogs are not crippled by these same behaviors.

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

YA and you probably read that all in a book. from 64 years of being around dogs I have come to learn that dogs can do a lot more then you would think, have you ever worked with drug dog> dogs that can find bodies if not you should.

__________________
Skip Hartline
219-325-0914- H
CELL 219-898-5725


gone but will never be forgotten

PR Van Dusen's Hanna o/h
NTCH PR Buck Brush Little Maggie o/h
NTCH PR Buck Brush Little Mickey o/h
PR Buck Brush Copper o/h
D NTCH PR Crooked Oak Boss o/h
D NtCH PR Alford's Alibi h
NTCH PR Alford's Hatchet h
NT CH PR Mill's Dotty h

I imagine it can be read in a book, but personally I like to balance that with 30 years of experience in the woods. But, I'm also quite confident that my argument was never that they are not very, intellectually capable, it was that we can't apply our same thought process to how they think in the woods.

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

give your self 30 more years you might think different. that is the problem with a lot of young people they try to out think there dog and what they say is the gospel, you can not prove that a dog switches tracks and nether can anyone else, just like I can not prove that they don't but you are smarter then them and you know what they are thinking and doing at all times.

me I do not try to out guess my dog or out think him I just let him be a dog you should try that it will surprise you what you can learn.

__________________
Skip Hartline
219-325-0914- H
CELL 219-898-5725


gone but will never be forgotten

PR Van Dusen's Hanna o/h
NTCH PR Buck Brush Little Maggie o/h
NTCH PR Buck Brush Little Mickey o/h
PR Buck Brush Copper o/h
D NTCH PR Crooked Oak Boss o/h
D NtCH PR Alford's Alibi h
NTCH PR Alford's Hatchet h
NT CH PR Mill's Dotty h

I don't know how many of you are familiar with Orthoflex, the saddle company, or its owner Lenny Brown, but he had a dog once that really got me to thinking how much dogs understand and what they are capable of being taught.

The dog, I don't remember its name now, was a pit bull. Lenny had several horses in a pasture. 8 or 10......something like that.

He could tell that dog to go get any horse in the pasture, by either its name or its markings and color.

"go bring the bald face black" or "get the bay" or " bring Bill and Sam" (or what ever there names were I don't remember them now)

the dog never missed and to this day im not sure how he knew. Im not sure Lenny even knew to be honest.

__________________
when policemen ignore the law, then there isn't any law. there's just a fight for survival.

*billy jack

It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.

Robert E. Lee

.

Like most post three pages long I am not really sure what point is being made so forgive me if I am off base here. I think dogs swap tracks way more than people think they do. Like the man with the coyote dogs we run deer here in the south with dogs. I have seen dogs run a buck into a block many times and come out the other side on a doe. This is a pack of hounds barking every breath and running as fast as they can. I have seen deer shot in front of them a few hundred yards and then never stop at the shot deer but somehow leave there on a doe. Actually I thik some bucks learn to live by throwing the dogs off on a doe while they lay down and hold their position. I have seen it hog hunting also. Put dogs on large hog and they come out running a small one. I have drove up to a ditch or river many times to see a coon Cast dogs in the direction I saw the coon go and they go another way and end up trees. Lots of coon and lots of tracks out there for them to run. I have seen hogs run to a herd of cows with calves to shake the dogs. Bottom line is I think it happens with our hounds and the animals in the wild learn that they can loose dogs or predators by getting with other game. Now a feed track is different altogether from a running track.

Skip Congrats on derailing another thread!!!!

All dave is saying is that dogs live in the present and don't go through 5 step problem solving like us humans. Much like I'm sure if dog could learn chess, a human player of similar skill would normally win, due to there ability to think more steps ahead.


Bruce, I think the Pack scenario doesn't work as well for the discussion so my because of the fact that we don't know how many dogs are actually running the scent or just following the lead dog. Not to mention the league dog would be more of a track driving dog, which to me would implicate that he is drifting and therefore more likely to switch tracks.
I just think a pack of dogs running a coyote on body scent doesn't equate very well with single dog running a coon.

I for one believe a dog is capable of crossing a coon track and continuing on the same track, and telling them apart. I believe this because I have seen her tree multiple coon within close vicinity. I have heard of other dogs that were capable of doing this. I have also seen where rather then shooting 2 coon out in a night, a guy would throw out a previously skinned coon, as a reward and the dog smelling it and not wanting nothing to do with it.

I would also make the assumption, that a pack of coonhounds running a coon would be more apt to switch tracks. I guess this also could add influence to how a dog runs coon. If this assumption is true, then the dog hunted in a pack more often might be more likely to switch tracks.

The reason for my original post was because the pup I was hunting struck a track appeared to back track, and quickly gave up on it, took off running and found an easier track in deeper. I have seen this out of the last pup I trained with as well. At the time I thought well I guess he just doesn't have the nose, but now I'm starting to wonder if it has more to do with some weird desire to run through the woods a million miles an hour instead of learning to work out a track. On a more positive note it seems the more I hunted him down the more of an attempt he seem to make to decipher the colder track.

__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain