UKC Forums - Another Classification (SuperGrand)

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-- Another Classification (SuperGrand) (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928364433)

Posted by red rocket on 03-02-2014 01:51 PM:

I agree with the 3 hr hunt and 200- scratch. This whole idea would save some clubs.

Posted by georgef072007 on 03-02-2014 04:02 PM:

Grand Nite isn't always that easy to begin with

I have competition hunted for a lot of years and owned some pretty nice dogs during that time without any of them achieving the title of Grand Nite Champion until about 3 years ago.

Is the GRNT that I have now any better than the other dogs that I have owned and handled through the years? In some ways yes he is, in other ways he isn't, but he is a "competition dog" first and foremost more so than a "coon dog". Plus, when you are competition hunting there is always the "luck" factor to keep in mind. Some dogs are just born under the right star and have the luck that goes with it, they are in the right place at the right time, draw the dogs that get scratched quick and leave them to hunt 2 hours alone, draw the guide that puts them in thick easy coons and these dogs grand out quick.

Do they need another classification to go to? I don't think so, just enjoy all that you have accomplished with them and either move on to the next project or start them in another registry and see how long the streak can last.

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Posted by Dale Young on 03-02-2014 04:05 PM:

I think a good idea for those Grands to earn some money at the local hunts might keep them in the hunts ,at least the very good ones . We've been ok'd across the board to hunt for cash awards so set something up for the Grands to win their entries back and more if possible . Would be an incentive to finish to Grand so you might make a buck while hunting and maybe earn performance money at the same time . Something that don't suck the Club profit away from what we have from open & ch's .
Maybe UKC could upgrade your easy entry card after every 5 wins to GRNCH V and then GRNCH X . Could be no limit to the wins but pretty impressive if you show big numbers after your Grand Nite title .

Posted by bobbycagle1 on 03-02-2014 07:38 PM:

Dale, that'll work too! As a matter of fact, money is always a good prize!
Would all grands hunt together, or would grand5-grand 10 hunt together? Either way it would increase our # of grand cast at a given hunt. And it would give our hunters and grand dogs a chance to keep hunting more often.

__________________
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Waldron, Arkansas
(479) 207-3789

Posted by zshepherd on 03-03-2014 03:21 AM:

I think that all notch cast should be hunted elimination style, that way the guy at the local club with the hot spot don't always have the ntch winner, hunt hour rounds and come back to the club and cast out the cast winners so you always have a chance to win, it sucks to drive hours and get score carded out every dang weekend at the club

Posted by Todd K / UKC on 03-03-2014 01:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Young
Maybe UKC could upgrade your easy entry card after every 5 wins to GRNCH V and then GRNCH X . Could be no limit to the wins but pretty impressive if you show big numbers after your Grand Nite title .

Hmmmmm. Sounds vaguely familiar? No wonder I like it!

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Posted by bobbycagle1 on 03-03-2014 05:56 PM:

I like it. It keeps are grand dogs competing! And more cast # for our clubs, more everything!

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Bobby Cagle,
Waldron, Arkansas
(479) 207-3789

Posted by michael.magorian on 03-03-2014 08:26 PM:

So I've been reading this babbling and whining for a while now trying to figure this competition mindset out. So what stops people from entering their GRNITECH in a local club hunt? Are they banned or something? Sounds to me like it is the owners needing a title incentive to support local hunts and compete with their hounds. Why not worry more about trying to win an RQE and then trying to win the World? There are other titles a person could try to put on their hounds if they are willing to compete in a different manner. We are all well aware that there are plenty of GRNITECHs that are not coonhounds, so where lies the problem?

I think some people just need to compensate.

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Posted by bobbycagle1 on 03-03-2014 11:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by red rocket
I agree with the 3 hr hunt and 200- scratch. This whole idea would save some clubs.

I've got 4 or 5 guys in my club alone that's granded out their hounds, they have some pups that are coming on. I know plenty more guys at other clubs in the same shape. All I'm saying is this gives them the opportunity to keep comp hunting at the local level. A lot folks will not travel that far to an RQE, or slam event, and they have their reasons for it, whether financial, job related, or time or family. It doesn't matter, that's personal! Point is, they'll hunt close to home, and this way they can enter their dogs almost every weekend somewhere close to home. Does that not just make sense? It does to me!

__________________
Bobby Cagle,
Waldron, Arkansas
(479) 207-3789

Posted by bobbycagle1 on 03-04-2014 08:06 PM:

There are a lot of good comments on this subject, and I'm not sure how you go about polling everyone to see what they think about another classification? But it would be interesting to see what the results would be? Anyone know how to get a poll on this subject posted on here?

__________________
Bobby Cagle,
Waldron, Arkansas
(479) 207-3789

Posted by bobbycagle1 on 03-06-2014 01:37 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ed esposti
to make it Tougher have them hunt 3 hours, 200- points dog is scratched and need 5 overall wins. I think if they do make another category for "Super GrandNite" then it should be the toughest of them all and going on a 3 hour cast finishing with Plus Points and less than 200- minus i believe would be a good test.

Ed, I like this idea the best. This would definitely make it a tougher classification! I would also add a thought that for this classification instead of a hunting judge, the cast would have to have a non-hunting judge?????

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Bobby Cagle,
Waldron, Arkansas
(479) 207-3789

Posted by shane_atchison on 03-06-2014 03:18 AM:

Wrong end fellas!!!

NITE CH.= 5 Hunt wins just like Grand. I place little value in the Nitech. title in its current format.

__________________
Shane

Posted by Oak Ridge on 03-06-2014 06:18 AM:

You know, I alway hoped that the performance program would somehow give us a reason to drag the Grand Nights out to the local club for a local hunt.

I own two Grands now, both of them permanently nominated for the performance program....and I enjoyed some pretty hefty checks from UKC when I made those dogs Grand. My hope at the time was that there were other guys locally that were doing the same thing, and that they would bring those dogs to a local hunt.....but it never happened.

Think about it...a good turn out at a local hunt would mean that you could be hunting for a bigger piece of a whole performance point each weekend. Not at all unlike the Slam events, you actually would be hunting for money, but the payoff isn't until the checks come in March.

We don't need another title, we just need to break the habit of hanging up the lead strap of that two year old Grand Night Champion...and keep bringing them to the local club hunts.

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by Oak Ridge on 03-06-2014 06:38 AM:

Another thought......

If we all agree that the current degrees are less valuable than they used to be, why would we want to continue down the same path?

Years ago I was involved in competition hunting beagles. I attended many different field trials, and frequented several different styles of events from different registries. One that comes to mind was the UBGF (United Beagle Gundog Federation). They offered a "Certified Hunting Beagle" title. Now the requirements for this title are pretty lenghty, and they don't exactly track directly to coon hounds, but the basis of it was finding which dog was most suitable for hunting.

Today, we hear about "competition" dogs and "pleasure" dogs. The Certified Hunting Beagle title was put in place to combat the difference between the two. They pretty much don't go by a score card per say, but instead relied on two non hunting judges to evaluate a pack of beagles...they then had a bench show and the dog(s) that had the highest combined score between the three judges earned the points. After they had earned enough points, under different judges, at different clubs...they were given a "new" title, that of Certified Hunting Beagle.

In some ways, these mirror the HTX hunts, but without a scorecard. The dogs could be hunted together in a cast of four dogs, and the dog that "shined" in the cast would be judged the winner, but a second place dog with outstanding conformation may actually place higher in the point standing.

It would be no small undertaking to pull off these hunts, and you would need some pretty dedicated judges....you most likely would not hunt for two hours at a click....but I'm certain that some intelligent folks could design a parallel of the title for coon hounds.

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UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by bobbycagle1 on 03-06-2014 12:28 PM:

I guess I'm not quite following you? So what exactly would you like to see? Some kind of field trial? I would love to see more field trials and slam events too. However, wouldn't it be nice to have another classification that has some clout to it? A notch below worldch?

__________________
Bobby Cagle,
Waldron, Arkansas
(479) 207-3789

Posted by Tim Toler on 03-06-2014 03:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rocketman55
How about a perk that if you achieve this title, you are automatically entered into the zones of the world hunt for the remainder of the dogs life. No additional entry fees required.

Would that generate additional interest to participate???

I was thinking the same thing... but you will get someone to tell you that is to much like another KC... once you reach supreme grand.. the dog is qualified for life for their world hunt..

How about instead of another title... have a state point race that only Grands can run in...

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 03-06-2014 03:24 PM:

Bobby,

If you do a google search for UBGF and then look for the certified hunting beagle certification, it will explain what they do.

It would take a lot of modification, but it is doable. It would not be just an extension of the current title system, but another title the dog could earn in addition to HTX and Grand Night

I own one male that is a Bench Ch., Grand Night, HTX in UKC, a Supreme Grand Night Champion in AKC,and a PKC champion. He doesn't know he has those titles, and he couldn't care less..... But I had fun winning with him......

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by bobbycagle1 on 03-06-2014 05:49 PM:

I think it looks pretty good! Like you said, it would take some tweaking, but it is doable. Maybe the good folks up at ukc could take a mixture of all these things and generate another program for our grand dogs. They understand up there, and I believe their looking for inovative ways to better things. Another classification or program for our grands would be a good start. Thanks Joe!

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Bobby Cagle,
Waldron, Arkansas
(479) 207-3789

Posted by bobbycagle1 on 03-07-2014 05:06 AM:

Anybody ever figure out how to do a poll on here?

__________________
Bobby Cagle,
Waldron, Arkansas
(479) 207-3789

Posted by Jackson87 on 03-07-2014 04:09 PM:

Joe,I wish I had your problem.Granding out a 2 year old would be a dream come true.LOL

Posted by bobbycagle1 on 03-08-2014 06:32 AM:

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Waldron, Arkansas
(479) 207-3789

Posted by ericevans on 03-08-2014 08:04 AM:

IMO the clubs nor ukc will not benefit anything ,you go to these clubs now and it's basically the same guys, so you make another title get the grands back out then what ? The other numbers of reg and.nt.ch cast go down because it's the same guys hunting ,so now you have grands hunting and you made it easier for the weaker or less coon dog to make a grand because no competition or less competition.
One thing it would do for sure slow down the breeding a tad bit,and the reason I say this is because pushing and grand further for a higher title no reason to start a younger one so fast.You will be hunting the same dog for a little while longer,so yeah probably hurt ukc pocket some!

I don't know how many hunts I been to in the last few years but it's been a bunch and I tell ya I can't remember any of the clubs having enough guides to get every body out with out hassle.theres always somebody running around asking non club members to guide and giving them free entry to do so,witch isn't that big a deal but for most clubs they barely stay a float now and paying bills electric ,water ,rent ,taxes ,moh ,bench show judges ect.

One thing I would like to see a dog must have a htx title maybe even htx two or three or (what ever makes them smile )to compete in any reg.nt.ch or grand cast ,get rid of the me tooing hitch hiking that won't hunt alone out, or delay them from getting in and competing longer, that alone will get rid of a bunch and will let a lot hunt a dog longer and get a little older before retiring Again jmo

Money hunts are for the other kc's I feel if your in it for the money your in the wrong kc,and somebody should help you get to the other side and that's mop too.

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 03-08-2014 02:20 PM:

Eric you have hit the nail on the head with the guide issue, that is why the "certification" process that I'm talking about would need to be offered aside from the registered and night hunt events.

This covers a couple of different bases. First, the club could offer these events and it could potentially bring in a new revenue stream, secondly it would no take way from the hunts they have today....

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UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by bobbycagle1 on 03-08-2014 04:05 PM:

That's good talk fellows, and there's some truth to the guide issues. And I like the htx topic you brought up. But I believe you wrong on it would just be the same guys hunting a supergrand. If that was the case, most would get a different handler for one of their dogs. Jmo. We've got a lot of boys right now that are titled out, and have some pups their training, but are not ready for the hunts. Another title would help them out and help the club!

__________________
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Waldron, Arkansas
(479) 207-3789

Posted by ericevans on 03-08-2014 05:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by bobbycagle1
That's good talk fellows, and there's some truth to the guide issues. And I like the htx topic you brought up. But I believe you wrong on it would just be the same guys hunting a supergrand. If that was the case, most would get a different handler for one of their dogs. Jmo. We've got a lot of boys right now that are titled out, and have some pups their training, but are not ready for the hunts. Another title would help them out and help the club!

Bobby I don't think I'm to far off and wrong ,it would be the same people hunting the super grand as said, but I don't think many people "can or want "to pay out more money between gas and entry to have another guy or gal make another one for them unless some one is trying for reproducer list and they are already doing that.A lot are in it for their pleasure not to just title dogs " not all" tho.
I would like to see something for the grands too Bobby,I have one that made it at 17 months and at big hunts!He is just now 2 and 1/2
The way the system is now tho ,I guess the boys as you called them,will need to start earlier with the pups so when they do grand one out ,they have another ready as most of us do until ukc gets something working this is what I do and many others do,I don't know about you but good capable trust worthy handlers are hard to find ,if you dought that look at all post about hunt rule questions on this forum and see how many argue and that's on the internet where they can look up the rules before replying ,and not in the woods where a person should be that can remember the rules!
I could be wrong !
Bobby I like the idea of htx hunts before a dog can compete in the hunts to weed out the weak,that alone will get better compition delay granding a little and better the overall coondog world !

As I said before I like this topic,I been wanting something for them for along time!

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