UKC Forums - Pope Francis

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Posted by truly on 12-12-2013 06:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ List_...> ng_in_poverty

percentage of population living in poverty in Germany 15.5%

percentage of population living in poverty in usa 15.1%

is the truth in these people?

lets dig a little deeper?

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/201...9/pove-n09.html

Although Germany is one of the richest countries in the world, many children live in poverty. This was confirmed by a recent report of the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF).

Approximately 10 percent of German girls and boys live in families whose income lies below the poverty line. The benchmark used is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) social measurement, according to which someone is poor if he or she receives less than half the median income. Of 29 participating OECD countries, Germany is ranked eleventh.

At the other pole of society, however, wealth is growing rapidly, thanks to the policies of the government parties in Berlin. According to rankings published in early October by Manager Magazin, the assets of the richest top 100 have increased in the past twelve months by 5.2 percent, to a record high of €336.6 billion [$US 449.8 billion]. There are 135 billionaires living in Germany, and, according to a study by Credit Suisse, some 1.7 million “dollar millionaires.”

WHAT? THE POOR GETTING POORER, AND THE RICH GETTING RICHER? SURELY NOT? THATS A CAPITILIST PIG PROBLEM?

LOL, THATS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU READ PROPAGANDA AND DONT KNOW THE TRUTH BECAUSE YOU NEVER EVEN BEEN TO THE COUNTRY

Funny stuff Rance. Your first link dead ends (though it looks like the same wiki page I used), and your second link is from the WORLD SOCIALIST WEB SITE. I am glad you are finally using sites that see income inequality as a negative.
BTW, your numbers 15.5 for Germany and 15.1 are "poverty line", which lets each country determine for themselves how to define poverty. By this measure China and Russia have lower poverty rates than the U.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ List_...> ng_in_poverty

__________________
patriotism is supporting your country all of the time and your government when it deserves it.
if you think the price of education is high, check out the cost of ignorance!

Posted by truly on 12-12-2013 06:20 AM:

Even Kazakhstan has us beat by this measure with 6% poverty line!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ List_...> ng_in_poverty
If anyone cares to see the list Rance and I are using enter this into wiki search:
List of countries by percentage of population living in poverty

__________________
patriotism is supporting your country all of the time and your government when it deserves it.
if you think the price of education is high, check out the cost of ignorance!

Posted by truly on 12-12-2013 06:22 AM:

Richard Wolff takes down you and Bill's talking points:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr3LPFh8CsM

__________________
patriotism is supporting your country all of the time and your government when it deserves it.
if you think the price of education is high, check out the cost of ignorance!

Posted by rance56 on 12-12-2013 09:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by truly
Funny stuff Rance. Your first link dead ends (though it looks like the same wiki page I used), and your second link is from the WORLD SOCIALIST WEB SITE. I am glad you are finally using sites that see income inequality as a negative.
BTW, your numbers 15.5 for Germany and 15.1 are "poverty line", which lets each country determine for themselves how to define poverty. By this measure China and Russia have lower poverty rates than the U.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ List_...> ng_in_poverty

first link should go to Wikipedia, but you verified the numbers anyway as accurate. point is, you are saying Germany is better in all these areas, and im showing your numbers that prove other wise.

as far as the info from a socialist website, point is you cant deny it as fox new propaganda, its coming from your sources. 2nd point, just proves even in your "utopia" which you call Germany, these same issues exist, which proves THEY ARE NOT A CAPITILSM ISSUE AND THAT YOU SOCIALIST LIVE IN A FANTASY WORLD AND WILL NEVER BE SATISIFIED WITH WHAT IS ACCOMPLISHABLE IN REAL LIFE SCENARIOS

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Posted by rance56 on 12-12-2013 09:41 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by truly
Even Kazakhstan has us beat by this measure with 6% poverty line!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ List_...> ng_in_poverty
If anyone cares to see the list Rance and I are using enter this into wiki search:
List of countries by percentage of population living in poverty

exactly, that's why you have to take these things with a grain of salt. JUST LIKE WHEN YOU USE TO QUOTE infant MORTALITY RATES AS A SIGN OF BAD US HEALTHCARE, I tried to tell you its all in how the numbers are reported by each country. you need real world experience or common sense to understand the truth of these matters. its like you reading socialist propaganda and telling us how great Germany is, AND U HAVE NEVER EVEN BEEN THERE

by the way, my dog collar is on the way in the mail, figure you should wear it since I own you so much on here.

take care, off to iowa for 10 days of trophy deer hunting. gotta love a capitilist country where the son of alower middle class welder can in one generation move up in society to afford some of the luxuries in life.

USA: DEFENDING WORLD WAR CHAMPIONS!

__________________
the oldest ride in the park, but still the longest line.

Posted by michael.magorian on 12-12-2013 01:45 PM:

So truly, how would this socialism possibly work in America when our poverty-stricken, Democrate-voting, lower class won't even attempt to find a job? Even though I am still waiting for you to answer why Pope Francis' endorsement for socialism is a valid argument to change our economic system. Our lower class has earned their position in our society. They don't deserve what they get the way it is.

__________________
Walk softly and carry a big stick.

Posted by conhtr1 on 12-12-2013 01:49 PM:

It comes as no surprise that truly picked the pope. He has absolute power in the Vatican City just as the libs want for Obama. It is not a democracy. Also, where does the money come from that runs the city? I wonder how over 800 people make a living off 110 acres. If they can, maybe they should give lessons to those in poverty.

__________________
“Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him had better take a closer look at the American Indian.”

- Henry Ford, founder – Ford Motor Corporation

Posted by TomPurdy on 12-12-2013 07:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by TomPurdy
Truly, Don't just say I'm wrong be specific!! Show me where I'm wrong!!

Truly, I know you have your hands full with this post. However I've asked you a couple of times to show me where my illustration is wrong!!

Since you have failed to show me the error in my illustration. I'm lead to believe there is no error in it at all!! In fact what the illustration shows is socialism in it's purest form. And since the example shows socialism for what it is, you just labeled it WRONG!! When in reality it's not wrong at all!! It just dosnt fit into the liberal agenda!!

You might be surprised to know that I believe a few aspects of socialism are good!! However the fundamentals of the idea are a death to a society!!

Posted by truly on 12-12-2013 07:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rance56

by the way, my dog collar is on the way in the mail, figure you should wear it since I own you so much on here.

Rance, I do get a kick out of you righties declaring victory prematurely. I always think of Karl Rove declaring that Mitt Romney had it in the bag:

Or the famous 'Dewey Defeats Truman'- seriously, President Dewey? That doesn't even sound right….

Or my favorite, Norm Coleman declaring victory over SENATOR Al Franken. He declared it day after day hoping that someone would believe him.
So you enjoy your imaginary victory lap. While Pope Francis gets the cover of Time magazine (person of the year).
And thanks for your choice of words, "I own you…", because anyone reading this needs to understand that the most ardent supporters of CAPITALISM see even human beings as something to be owned. To a capitalist a human is something to be owned and controlled, to be set up so that investors can reap the benefits of their labor. Humans that labor are just a commodity to be exploited. If you have to ship the factory overseas to drive down labor costs, oh well, it's good for the investor class. Steal a pension?, heck yeah, if it will improve the retirement plans of the owners/investors.

and you tell us that:
"I get 4 weeks paid vacation, 6 paid sick days, and 9 paid holidays, I get 2 weeks paid paternity leave ad the wife gets like 3 months, I plan on retiring in my mid 50s, as far as perks, 7% 401k match dollar for dollar, 10% profit share dump each year, plus 3k a year into a health savings account."
And this is for managing other peoples earnings. American citizens are waking up to the fact that the folks who have "bankers hours" working in nice safe comfortable environments get the good life, while those who actually put their body on the line, doing physically challenging work, getting their hands dirty, wearing themselves out, get kicked to the curb when the capitalists have gotten whatever wealth that can be extracted from them into their own hands.
And of course the banking/finance/investment crowd claims that their work "adds so much value to our economy". Really? Then why are we having to bail out your industry? So your crowd can get some more million dollar year end bonuses?
Your crowd tries to convince America that everyone is lazy. From my perspective I know a lot more folks who want to be working, want to be contributing, want to be involved in America's productivity, but the factories are shut down, shops closed, "workforces trimmed", and textile mills shipped overseas. And each of these actions makes Wall St go wild! Increased profits for investors is increased poverty for workers.

And you just can't declare victory as long as capitalism is leaving so many people suffering.

__________________
patriotism is supporting your country all of the time and your government when it deserves it.
if you think the price of education is high, check out the cost of ignorance!

Posted by truly on 12-12-2013 07:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by TomPurdy
Truly, I know you have your hands full with this post. However I've asked you a couple of times to show me where my illustration is wrong!!

Since you have failed to show me the error in my illustration. I'm lead to believe there is no error in it at all!! In fact what the illustration shows is socialism in it's purest form. And since the example shows socialism for what it is, you just labeled it WRONG!! When in reality it's not wrong at all!! It just dosnt fit into the liberal agenda!!

You might be surprised to know that I believe a few aspects of socialism are good!! However the fundamentals of the idea are a death to a society!!

Sorry Tom, I gotta get back to work. I promise I will get to it soon. It might be just warm enough to turn a dog loose tonight. But tomorrow when I have more time…..

__________________
patriotism is supporting your country all of the time and your government when it deserves it.
if you think the price of education is high, check out the cost of ignorance!

Posted by TomPurdy on 12-12-2013 07:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by truly
Sorry Tom, I gotta get back to work. I promise I will get to it soon. It might be just warm enough to turn a dog loose tonight. But tomorrow when I have more time…..

Thanks Truly!! Be careful, and good luck tonight!!

Posted by michael.magorian on 12-12-2013 07:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by truly
Your crowd tries to convince America that everyone is lazy. From my perspective I know a lot more folks who want to be working, want to be contributing, want to be involved in America's productivity, but the factories are shut down, shops closed, "workforces trimmed", and textile mills shipped overseas. And each of these actions makes Wall St go wild! Increased profits for investors is increased poverty for workers.

And you just can't declare victory as long as capitalism is leaving so many people suffering.

Those "suffering" people with their free healthcare, disability checks, welfare and/or unemployment checks, cell phones, tax returns for nothing, and Social Security, are getting exactly what they have earned. I'm by no means an exception, but I figured out how to make it through college on student loans, a full time construction job, a mortgage, and over a decade of military service.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

I just want them to get off the gov't tit, and try standing on their own two feet so the working man can keep what he earns.

__________________
Walk softly and carry a big stick.

Posted by truly on 12-13-2013 06:14 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by TomPurdy
Truly, I'm going to give you an example of socialism, and you tell me where you disagree!!

To make it simple let's say we have a classs of 10 students. Five of those students work hard they study, do their homework, spend extra time studying the night before the big test.

The other five spend their time goofing off, spend no time studying, don't turn any of their work, the night before the test they spend their night partying.

Come test time the 5 working students all get A's, but the 5 partying students all F's. But the teacher comes up with an excuse as to why the 5 partiers failed, so he says to be fair we will just give everyone a C!!

Truly which 5 do you think are going to change? History has example after example that says the workers will stop working!! Why you might ask because they realize that no matter how much they strive to improve all they can hope for is a C!!All the while looking at the partiers who do nothing, but receive the same as them!! That's why their dreams die!!

That is socialism in a nutshell!! The working class is the 5 working students, and the government is the teacher. That is why history proves it to be a failure!!

Before I tell you why I disagree I am gonna tell you something that I (kind of) agree with The Seeker about. Bob disagreed with me that Germany is a socialist country, or that it had a socialist economy. The truth is that Germany has a "more socialist" economy. Generally speaking there are no countries that have a "pure" form of socialism. And honestly I don't know of anyone advocating for that. Socialism is the concept that a country should be run for the good of the whole society, not just the rich, not just the poor, but everyone. As in "we the people", "of the people, by the people, for the people". Or, from the preamble to our constitution, to promote the general welfare of the people. Capitalism is the notion that a country should be run to protect and further capital and those who have it.
So here is a better example of socialism, using your template: 100 students in a class. Test coming up. Some students apply themselves better than others. Test is taken. Some get A's, some get B's, some get C's, some D's, some F's. Those who get the A's grow up to run companies. B's do management and highly technical work. C's and D's provide the muscle/labor, and the F's sweep the floors and clean the toilets. Their pay scale reflects their work skills. SOme live in huge houses and drive luxury cars, some live in flats and take the bus to work. But they all have healthcare provided for them. They all have quality roads and transit options. They all get to take vacations. And their children, due to free or highly subsidized education have a chance to succeed or fail based on their own merits, not on their parents merits, not based on what part of the country they were born in, not based on access to higher education. And because even the F parents get 6 weeks of vacation time those parents and their kids have the time to reflect on what they want out of life and whether or not they will apply themselves better than their parents did. ANd most likely these kids will grow up wanting more and will therefore apply themselves better.
But now let's use your template to describe the U.S. form of capitalism. 100 students take test. Students get varying results. No matter what his score came in at, the student with the richest parents gets an A+. The students who get the 9 best results get A's. The eleven next best get C's, the next 64 get D's and the lowest 15 get F's. And what matters more than how hard you tried is who your parents are. Or what part of the country you were born in.
This is the reality of the current situation of the U.S. economy. 79% of citizens are in "economic distress". 1% have more money than they can count. CEOs make 350 times more than laborers. Our country has a horribly low rate of economic mobility (the ability to move from lower to middle or middle to upper income). Your lot in life is largely determined by how rich your parents are, where you are born, your luck of having access to a good education.
We have been on this path for a long time. Apparently many have finally woken up to it. Unfortunately those who have just woken up to it have started a "blame Obama" coalition and refuse to accept that "America the Great" has been on this path for quite some time. I have to admit I was a "blame Bush" guy for a while, then I came to terms with Clintons mishandling of our economy (repeal Glass-Steagall? seriously? WTF?), came to terms with Bush 1's errors, saw that most of these bad policies started during the Reagan era. IMHO, Reagan was a communicator, not a policy wonk. I won't blame him for the horrible policies that he promoted. I am now of the opinion that Milton Friedman and the "Chicago boys" are the root of our problems. And what they have always stood for is complete unfettered capitalism. The kind of capitalism that they put in place under the dictator/war criminal Pinochet. The kind of capitalism that will watch 99% suffer so that 1% can thrive.
Every so often in the arc of evolving economic policies, capitalism needs a shot of socialism. We are at one of those points in history. The version of capitalism that we live under today will devour itself if not reined in. It is what the Pope realizes, and what the rest of the world realizes. But they aren't gonna rush in to help us. After the way we have treated them they would rather see us just go ahead and cannibalize ourselves.
Countries that have wisely incorporated some socialism into their policies are on the rise. Those that don't will fail. Our form of capitalism is ALL about greed and money. You can't worship money and simultaneously build a great society.

__________________
patriotism is supporting your country all of the time and your government when it deserves it.
if you think the price of education is high, check out the cost of ignorance!

Posted by conhtr1 on 12-13-2013 07:17 AM:

truly, you really should get out more.
let's take Warren Buffett since most people will know his name.

Even as a child, Buffett displayed an interest in making and saving money. He went door to door selling chewing gum, Coca-Cola, or weekly magazines. For a while, he worked in his grandfather's grocery store. While still in high school he was successful in making money by delivering newspapers, selling golf balls and stamps, and detailing cars, among other means. Filing his first income tax return in 1944, Buffett took a $35 deduction for the use of his bicycle and watch on his paper route.[18] In 1945, in his sophomore year of high school, Buffett and a friend spent $25 to purchase a used pinball machine, which they placed in the local barber shop. Within months, they owned several machines in different barber shops.

Let's try another name....Obama

Do you think who his parents are was a factor in his being elected president?

Let's try another Oprah Winfrey

Wikipedia says Winfrey was born into poverty in rural Mississippi to a teenage single mother and later raised in an inner-city Milwaukee neighborhood.

Shall I go on? Also seems it's not based on race or sex either.

Posted by trackdriver on 12-13-2013 09:16 PM:

Reject theories by vote!

Posted by oklared on 12-13-2013 10:11 PM:

DOES ANYONE KNOW OF A COUNTRY OR IMPIRE WERE THERE WAS NO RICH OR POOR OR MIDLE,

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Posted by TomPurdy on 12-14-2013 12:48 AM:

Excellent post Truly, some point well taken ,I actually agree with you there are certain aspects of socialism that benefit a society .However socialism is based on the fundamental concept that people will work hard ,and only take what they need!! Socislism would be a great form of government if that were true.Unfortunately however just the opposite is true. It is true with me it is true with you. Human nature from the fourth chapter of Genesis until now, is how do I get more for less that's why any marketer will tell you if you want to get people in your store advertise buy one get one FREE! Everyone looks to get more bang for the buck!! In our illustrations the kids with low grades quickly come to realize I can perform poorly with little effort and still get a six week vacation,paid for by the students who perform well. The poor students quickly come to learn that they get more bang for the buck that way!! The achieving students also realize this ,and suddenly loose their motivation.The scale suddenly tips more people taking ,less people working and that society cannibalizes itself. The poor students begin to accuse the achiving students.

Capitalism is based on the concept that a motivated free person will succeed, never forget the pilgrims did not come here to get free health care!! They came here to be free!! Capitalism rewards those who seek to achieve!! Conhrt just gave some good examples of that. Those people he spoke of are famous, but their are millions of other examples who are not!! My father being one of them!! That's why I say capitalism has pulled more people out of poverty than any legislation could ever do!! Capitalism at least affords people the opportunity. Some take it others do not.

Let's imagine if the NBA would start to commission themselves with a socialistic view they would have to let me play!!! At 5'11,and hardly able to walk to a dog without falling, do you think the NBA's product would be better or worse? That's what makes LeBron James worth millions, he has skills that most do not! The same can be said of those who apply themselves ,and become CEOs, and so on. Now I can sit here, and complain that LeBron has advantages over me ,and he certainly does .However that doesn't give me the right to sit here, and tell him he needs to give me some of his money, just because I can't dunk a basketball!! If you are born in this country you have advantages, that people around the world would die for!! Capitalism is what has turned the USA into a superpower in less than 300 years!!

On a lighter note Truly, did you get anything treed last nigh?

Posted by trackdriver on 12-14-2013 02:08 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by TomPurdy
Excellent post Truly, some point well taken ,I actually agree with you there are certain aspects of socialism that benefit a society .However socialism is based on the fundamental concept that people will work hard ,and only take what they need!! Socislism would be a great form of government if that were true.Unfortunately however just the opposite is true. It is true with me it is true with you. Human nature from the fourth chapter of Genesis until now, is how do I get more for less that's why any marketer will tell you if you want to get people in your store advertise buy one get one FREE! Everyone looks to get more bang for the buck!! In our illustrations the kids with low grades quickly come to realize I can perform poorly with little effort and still get a six week vacation,paid for by the students who perform well. The poor students quickly come to learn that they get more bang for the buck that way!! The achieving students also realize this ,and suddenly loose their motivation.The scale suddenly tips more people taking ,less people working and that society cannibalizes itself. The poor students begin to accuse the achiving students.

Capitalism is based on the concept that a motivated free person will succeed, never forget the pilgrims did not come here to get free health care!! They came here to be free!! Capitalism rewards those who seek to achieve!! Conhrt just gave some good examples of that. Those people he spoke of are famous, but their are millions of other examples who are not!! My father being one of them!! That's why I say capitalism has pulled more people out of poverty than any legislation could ever do!! Capitalism at least affords people the opportunity. Some take it others do not.

Let's imagine if the NBA would start to commission themselves with a socialistic view they would have to let me play!!! At 5'11,and hardly able to walk to a dog without falling, do you think the NBA's product would be better or worse? That's what makes LeBron James worth millions, he has skills that most do not! The same can be said of those who apply themselves ,and become CEOs, and so on. Now I can sit here, and complain that LeBron has advantages over me ,and he certainly does .However that doesn't give me the right to sit here, and tell him he needs to give me some of his money, just because I can't dunk a basketball!! If you are born in this country you have advantages, that people around the world would die for!! Capitalism is what has turned the USA into a superpower in less than 300 years!!

On a lighter note Truly, did you get anything treed last nigh?

But tom why gripe about the free trade agreements and any other product of capitalism? Lebron james athletic ability has to do with capitalism which is a system?

Posted by TomPurdy on 12-14-2013 02:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by trackdriver
But tom why gripe about the free trade agreements and any other product of capitalism? Lebron james athletic ability has to do with capitalism which is a system?

Track, I apologize I'm not sure I quite follow what your asking.So I hope this helps.

Lebron possesses skills that seperate him from most others. That is why people pay him millions of dollars. Like Lebron in capitalist system people are given the opportunity to try and seperate themselves, maybe not with their athletic ability, but in other ways. That is what all entrepreneurs do!! Hope that helps with your second question Track!!

Posted by TomPurdy on 12-14-2013 03:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by The Seeker
Poverty level measure in United States $11,490 for 1 person and $23,550 for family of 4. a year.
Poverty level for 1 person living in India $144 a year.
And everything in between poverty in each country is figured differently. Even inside of countries poverty is figured differently between urban and rural.

Excellent post Bob!!

This post shows that the people in poverty in India would crawl 100 miles over broken glass to pick through our poverty stricken peoples trash!!

Posted by truly on 12-14-2013 04:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by The Seeker
Poverty level measure in United States $11,490 for 1 person and $23,550 for family of 4. a year.
Poverty level for 1 person living in India $144 a year.
And everything in between poverty in each country is figured differently. Even inside of countries poverty is figured differently between urban and rural.

Kazahkstan 6% of the people live on less then $2.15 a day. 30% of population are below poverty line. FACT!

Bob, your data on Kazakhstan is indeed a fact, or not.
For some poverty rate measures, each country gets to determine their own poverty line[as you state]. Which the folks in Kaza think $2.15 per day is not poverty. So by their terms they have a 6% poverty rate. Which is in the source that both Rance and I tried unsuccessfully to link to. I guess if you had no bills to pay, your mud hut was in good repair,there were plenty of goats in your herd and your uncle was a medicine man and could care for your health for free, then 2.15 per day is probably plenty.
Which is kind of my point about Germany's poverty rate, (in the data where Germany and U.S. set their own rate both countries are around 15%) if you live in a country where many of your essential needs are easily met, either because they are provided by govt agencies or they are just available for the taking out on the range/in the woods, then poverty means something different in each country.
But try going out and harvesting a meal in U.S. Of course in this community [hunters] I think we all could do it, but it costs most folks more for licenses, equipment, gas money etc than in many other places, and more than you might get to harvest.
So a less developed nation like Kaza (or India) could maintain what they consider livable conditions by letting people live a more hunter gatherer/peasant lifestyle, and a "developed nation" like Germany could decide to spend more on infrastructure, build hospitals, roads, set aside parks and natural areas, support manufacturing and business and then recoup on their investment enough to be able to pay for what the society considers "essential services".
It seems like a lot of Americans want to regress back to hunter gatherer peasant lifestyles. No more working together for a better future. I got mine now you go get yours. And don't take anything away from me or that would be "redistribution of wealth". But I think the cat is out of the bag. Too many AMericans want more than that. And too many Americans realize that the old system worked exceedingly well for 1-10% of folks. And not so well for many of the rest.
And define them as Socialist or not, the northern European countries are setting the standard right now for quality of life. Countries that are no more rich than us have a higher percentage of citizens living happy fulfilling lives. Their lives are not fraught with the kind of fears so many AMericans are wrestling with.
I know, I know, you will all come back with how wonderful and grand life is here in the good ole US. If it is really all that great why are so many filling their bunkers with .22 shells, bottled water, and MRE's? ANd why all of the gold buying?

__________________
patriotism is supporting your country all of the time and your government when it deserves it.
if you think the price of education is high, check out the cost of ignorance!

Posted by truly on 12-14-2013 05:48 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by TomPurdy
Excellent post Truly, some point well taken ,I actually agree with you there are certain aspects of socialism that benefit a society .**1** However socialism is based on the fundamental concept that people will work hard ,and only take what they need!! Socislism would be a great form of government if that were true.Unfortunately however just the opposite is true. It is true with me it is true with you. Human nature from the fourth chapter of Genesis until now, is how do I get more for less that's why any marketer will tell you if you want to get people in your store advertise buy one get one FREE! Everyone looks to get more bang for the buck!! In our illustrations the kids with low grades quickly come to realize I can perform poorly with little effort and still get a six week vacation,paid for by the students who perform well. The poor students quickly come to learn that they get more bang for the buck that way!! **2** The achieving students also realize this ,and suddenly loose their motivation.The scale suddenly tips more people taking ,less people working and that society cannibalizes itself. The poor students begin to accuse the achiving students.

Capitalism is based on the concept that a motivated free person will succeed, never forget the pilgrims did not come here to get free health care!! They came here to be free!! Capitalism rewards those who seek to achieve!! Conhrt just gave some good examples of that. Those people he spoke of are famous, but their are millions of other examples who are not!! **3** My father being one of them!! That's why I say capitalism has pulled more people out of poverty than any legislation could ever do!! Capitalism at least affords people the opportunity. Some take it others do not.

Let's imagine if the NBA would start to commission themselves with a socialistic view they would have to let me play!!! At 5'11,and hardly able to walk to a dog without falling, do you think the NBA's product would be better or worse? That's what makes LeBron James worth millions, he has skills that most do not! The same can be said of those who apply themselves ,and become CEOs, and so on. Now I can sit here, and complain that LeBron has advantages over me ,and he certainly does .**4** However that doesn't give me the right to sit here, and tell him he needs to give me some of his money, just because I can't dunk a basketball!! If you are born in this country you have advantages, that people around the world would die for!! **5** Capitalism is what has turned the USA into a superpower in less than 300 years!!

On a lighter note Truly, did you get anything treed last nigh?

Tom, I inserted numbers in your post cause I want to go point by point where I see things differently.
1- I think you have confused socialism [S] and capitalism [C] here- more socialized economies don't assume they [citizens]will take only what they need. They require it. This is the whole knock on S. You will have provided for you what the society thinks is enough, nothing less than that, but it will be hard to take more than you need. If you find yourself in a position where the "getting" is easy you will likely be taxed heavily (see Lebron James). C requires charity to be the balancing act between the rich and poor. S is the counterweight to the greed/human nature that goes back to the beginning of time. In C if you figure out how to get more for less, even if the ways you do it are immoral, unscrupulous and maybe even illegal you get to keep it. Look at all the banksters that defraud so many, they pay a fine of about half of the money that they gathered through their illegal, unscrupulous or immoral ways and keep the rest. (see Jayme Dimon)
2- I think we have a fundamental difference in how much difference their needs to be in pay/lifestyle to motivate people. Using our "test students" again, I think if you had one dollar difference for each level of ranking that would still motivate folks. As in the top kid (of 100) would get $100. The middle kid would get 50, the lowest would get 1. I think that would be enough. Our CEO's now make 354 times more than their rank and file employees. The CEO of Walmart makes about 1000 times more than his employees. I think that is demotivating. Think about it this way- would you rather live in a society where there is a 50% chance that you live quite comfortably, and a 10% that you live very very well, but a 0% chance that you become a multi billionaire, or would you rather live in a society where there is only a 20% chance of living quite comfortably, a 7% chance that you live very very well, and a 1/2% chance that you become a multi billionaire? Back to Genesis- I think you would have to be pretty greedy to choose choice #2.
3- your father and conhrt's examples are all over the age of 50. They all grew up in a different era. They grew up when this country was "more socialist". There were more opportunities 30-60 years ago. College was cheaper, Pell grants were easier to get, 40% Unionization drove up prevailing wages. As a 45 year old I can see the cut off. Folks used to work one or two jobs and retire with a pension. Now many are pushed into contract work and job hop year to year. Things are just different now. Everyone knows it. SOme just want to blame it on Obama, some realize that we have true underlying fundamental problems with how our economy works. But things are different. There is all sorts of data that suggest that income mobility has bottomed out.
4-I don't know Lebron's story. But I can guess that he, like most of his coworkers have a similar story. They started practicing their craft on public property- city park likely. They got their first career training by volunteer coaches- at age 7,8,9, they were getting hours and hours of volunteer coaching and now playing inside government provided facilities- park and rec buildings, school gymnasiums. By middle school they got coached by public school teachers and more training in free facilities. Then came the free govt provided busing to play other teams. Then a trip to the state championship where they likely played in another govt owned facility. Where they were spotted by a college scout, out on the payroll of a State run facility, looking for new talent. Kids got a free ride now- off to a State run college where employees on the state payroll mentor and coach them into the great players that they become. They fill the State owned/subsidized stadiums night after night. Then they get drafted by the Pros. Where they will play in stadiums that are heavily publicly funded. If they play football there will be govt paid for military jets flying over to add value to the spectators experience. When you add it all up we have invested millions into these star athletes. They didn't do it on their own. Sure, they did their part. But you and I the taxpayer did ours too. Pay it forward Lebron. We invested in you. Return us some dividends.
5- If you had to make a list of the different policies that led the US to be a superpower I don't think many of those policies are actually capitalist. Our governments decision to evict the indigenous folks from their land and then give that land to farmers, loggers, miners, and railroads was actually very anti capitalist. We actually stole property from the rightful owners. BUt it worked very well to spur economic growth. Our governments decision to get into WWII, help win it and meanwhile bomb the bejeezuz out of Germanys industrial centers was not C, but served us well. Sending a man to the moon was not C, but also served us well. Freeing slaves was actually 100% anti capitalist. Slaves were capital. It was very socialist to steal property from the slaveholders and make them free. Investing in our roads and bridges, locks and dams, giving land to start colleges, setting aside land for public use- all very anti capitalist. But quite likely big factors in our country rising to the top.
If the premise of capitalism is doing something for capital gains, make a list of things that were done purely for capital gains that made this country great. I think we are at our best when we do the right thing just cause it is the right thing. Not cause of greed.

On that lighter note- tough conditions. My wide ranging dog covered miles tonight. Miles. Hunted out 3/4s of a two mile section. Made one den tree. Nothing for a cold nose dog to even open on. 13 degrees. Great night though.

__________________
patriotism is supporting your country all of the time and your government when it deserves it.
if you think the price of education is high, check out the cost of ignorance!

Posted by truly on 12-14-2013 06:23 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by oklared
DOES ANYONE KNOW OF A COUNTRY OR IMPIRE WERE THERE WAS NO RICH OR POOR OR MIDLE,

Their are very few times in human history that a large vibrant middle class existed. Our history is full of eras in which there is a small ruling elite [kings lords, pharaohs], a few in the merchant/middle class, and many peasants/slaves/serfs. A middle class is actually a very unnatural thing. Without careful management the middle class will disappear rather quickly.

But it is worth fighting for right? Would we want to accept that because it is not the norm we should just revert to the majority of humans living in relative poverty? If we accepted that we would have no middle class would you be more likely to be rich or poor? Wouldn't the Preamble to the Constitution suggest that our framers wanted a middle class? (see general welfare, domestic tranquility, the pursuit of happiness)

The interesting exception to the rarity of the middle class is groups of people that we think of as indigenous or even backwards. Tribal societies often have no money system and few belongings. So if everyone has a roof over their head and some food to eat then they are pretty much all middle class. But these would be societies with really no rich or poor, but they would be unlikely to become a country or empire. These would be the societies that would be destroyed and taken over by empires. (see North America-1500's- 1800's)

I find it an interesting thing about these types of societies is that often they are SIMULTANEOUSLY communist (everyone shares nearly equally) libertarian (small or no government) democratic (groups make decisions together) socialist (decisions made for the well being of the entire society) totalitarian (despite some decisions being democratic, someone may be dictating other decisions) and last but not least Apolitical. Like not ever even thinking about their organizational methods or really attempting to make changes to them.

__________________
patriotism is supporting your country all of the time and your government when it deserves it.
if you think the price of education is high, check out the cost of ignorance!

Posted by truly on 12-14-2013 06:33 AM:

Oh, and one more thing,
Tom, now that you have stated that their are certain aspects of Socialism that are positive, I wonder if you would share what those things are? Just curious..
Would this qualify? As a society we value having lots of "houses of worship". Because of this we have made them tax exempt in numerous ways- in particular in most states they pay no property tax. Is this socialist? Is it good? Is it even arguably anti capitalist?

__________________
patriotism is supporting your country all of the time and your government when it deserves it.
if you think the price of education is high, check out the cost of ignorance!

Posted by trackdriver on 12-14-2013 08:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by TomPurdy
Track, I apologize I'm not sure I quite follow what your asking.So I hope this helps.

Lebron possesses skills that seperate him from most others. That is why people pay him millions of dollars. Like Lebron in capitalist system people are given the opportunity to try and seperate themselves, maybe not with their athletic ability, but in other ways. That is what all entrepreneurs do!! Hope that helps with your second question Track!!

James is stock,traded around the league to the highest bidder just as America has been bought and sold,so next time y'all complain about jobs going overseas or how Obama isn't a patriot remember capitalism has no friends only dollars.

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