UKC Forums - Why and What?

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Posted by southernthunder on 09-09-2013 07:17 PM:

Re: Why and What?

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues

What lines or individual dogs do some of you think would be known for being well above average on a particular trait ( tree, go, independence, locating ability, accuracy, etc. ) and would improve that trait on most other bloodline? [/B]

wasn't this the question asked? no wonder we as a breed can't get anywhere. most can't answer or follow simple instructions

its still a good thread John! I wish some would stay with the the question asked and tell us something about hounds so we can get educated on traits.

sorry folks

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Posted by prostockpat on 09-09-2013 07:52 PM:

southernthunder

ok,
where can we get hotter nosed,independent,and still be accurate blueticks for just COMP hunting?
to compete with the walkers in the bigger hunts?
don't care about kill season or better "coondogs".
pure competition only type

i know of none.that is my point/input/opinion

btw;bluetickers are too much of a "clique" to ever work together!

Posted by Tom Jones on 09-09-2013 08:07 PM:

Re: southernthunder

quote:
Originally posted by prostockpat
ok,
where can we get hotter nosed,independent,and still be accurate blueticks for just COMP hunting?
to compete with the walkers in the bigger hunts?
don't care about kill season or better "coondogs".
pure competition only type

i know of none.that is my point/input/opinion

btw;bluetickers are too much of a "clique" to ever come/work together!! lol

do you really care or do you just come over here to stir up trouble........I put my .02 in and I aint never seen the need to stray out side the breed. you guys want a hot nosed type hound? aint seen the leopords tearing up the hunts. the blue dogs have done pretty well imo and aint far away...........got to take em boys and Im as guilty as anyone for not going. I got 4 kids and thats my excuse and I dont need another one, hounds aint that important when it comes down to it.

If I was Mr. Smith I would put me some echo/bullet in there close. Troy's won a few big hunts and Zebs dam is alittermate to jim 2 or jimmy. Jody's sally dog is bred the same and finished in the top 20 I believe. they are pretty much the same stuff anyways so your just freshening it up and in my opinion is, If they have been there and done that and several of them have finished in the top 5-10 in the world............they got as good a chance as any and just need that one break like the hound got that beat em.

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Posted by rance56 on 09-09-2013 08:22 PM:

from what ive seen with bullet dogs, most direclty off of rattler.

early easy starting, one bark quick locators, fast-usually leading the pack, good mouths, stay put tree dogs with good locates and changeovers, if they are doing something they wont pull bascially no matter what, if they dont have something going on they will pack, competative type dogs. not mean or agressive, but will stay treed.

thats atleast the good that i experienced.

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Posted by okietreedog on 09-09-2013 09:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by 408northville
I tried to read his recent article but kept falling asleep and read what you wrote below and in doing so I know what each of you know about genetics. Were talking about breeding world class hounds not cows.
What is your method and what is his method. Let's see it, mine is out there for everyone to see.
In addition if you breed for many years and your method works, you would see it in the offspring improvement, each of those many years.

lol i agree his article was a little hard to read, as for my method as anybody that knows me knows i am very picky. As for results, check last years books i place 3rd at fall round up beat by tie breaker for second i also placed 2nd at the utchman memorial with a dog i raised, i have also hauled and competed at the world with a uncle to the above mentioned female. As for the cows and world class hounds i was just trying to explain the genetic traits and how they work they are no know traits that are fixed in hounds to my knowledge. Every dog on my yard is linebred to some degree. in my opinion the only way you can fix traits is linebred, i will grant that some dogs are dominant reproducers.

My method works i bred what i think will line up and work and the ones that do not preform are not around to reproduce enough said

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Posted by okietreedog on 09-09-2013 09:12 PM:

Re: Re: southernthunder

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Jones
do you really care or do you just come over here to stir up trouble........I put my .02 in and I aint never seen the need to stray out side the breed. you guys want a hot nosed type hound? aint seen the leopords tearing up the hunts. the blue dogs have done pretty well imo and aint far away...........got to take em boys and Im as guilty as anyone for not going. I got 4 kids and thats my excuse and I dont need another one, hounds aint that important when it comes down to it.

If I was Mr. Smith I would put me some echo/bullet in there close. Troy's won a few big hunts and Zebs dam is alittermate to jim 2 or jimmy. Jody's sally dog is bred the same and finished in the top 20 I believe. they are pretty much the same stuff anyways so your just freshening it up and in my opinion is, If they have been there and done that and several of them have finished in the top 5-10 in the world............they got as good a chance as any and just need that one break like the hound got that beat em.

Sally is a littermate to Zeb but it was Bocephus who finished it top 20 she did do really well at Battle of Breeds one year

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Home of some trashy culls,
it ain't the years it the miles that make me look this way

Posted by rance56 on 09-09-2013 09:18 PM:

wouldnt locking in ability traits be a different ballgame than locking in physical traits?

if you keep mixing the same stuff how does it improve?

if continous family breeding is the answer shouldnt the current hammer dogs coming from mr. dean's place be better than hammer 2 or 3 ect ect?

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Posted by okietreedog on 09-09-2013 09:29 PM:

a little because you would have to see them in offspring, breeding for physical traits should be easier, because i can look at a group of 8 week old pups and evaluate their color for example those not meeting said requirments are culled out of breeding pool, thus it would take longer on the ability traits, much like with game chickens you would have to test offspring to see results. you would have to find a individual in the line that exhibits the trait your missing but does not bring undesirable traits with it. In my mind you improve via selection, much like the beagles i had years ago they all ran rabbits before they were 6 month old like old dogs the man i got them from had the line for years he culled any dog that did not run by six month old thus removing late starters from the gene pool.

As far as the hammers they should be but if they have not been selected right and tested no.
Just because a dog goes back to joe blow 10X does not make him a good one if the last three generations where culls. Just like now i have a female that goes back the Wheatwood Blue Loud cross 6 times but if she does not make the grade she will never be bred just because she has blood she need to bring bloodline and ability to the table to play.

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______________________________

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Home of some trashy culls,
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Posted by Tom Jones on 09-09-2013 09:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
wouldnt locking in ability traits be a different ballgame than locking in physical traits?

if you keep mixing the same stuff how does it improve?

if continous family breeding is the answer shouldnt the current hammer dogs coming from mr. dean's place be better than hammer 2 or 3 ect ect?

nope cause he is not physically able to hunt them like he once did. its not that easy and none of us have it figured out or we would be the intructors at the universitys, not repeating stuff that we read from them.

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Posted by Tom Jones on 09-09-2013 09:36 PM:

Re: Re: Re: southernthunder

quote:
Originally posted by okietreedog
Sally is a littermate to Zeb but it was Bocephus who finished it top 20 she did do really well at Battle of Breeds one year

yep, sorry and thanks for keeping a eye on me lol

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Posted by Ron Moore on 09-09-2013 09:41 PM:

MY GOODNESS

I haven't heard so much indifference in a while. By the way, this is a very good thread John. I met your Dad many years ago and we had a wonderful conversation on the old Hammer dogs. He was a good man.

Over the last 40 some years I have hunted almost every Bluetick blood line out there. I have seen good and bad in all of them. I have been breeding these blue devils sense 1979 and I still haven't got them figured out. I have gone to the best with the best female I had and still got average results but I've always managed to keep a pretty nice hound around, (IMO). I love a Bluetick hound, period! Call me what you want. I've been with world Ch dogs and guess what, they will look bad too, they're just dogs, not machines, which by the way, sounds like many on here are looking for.

One thing I would like to bring up is the All Blue, (no tan trim) dog. I am hunting some now that go back to Shelton Morris' old Boomer stock. As a general rule, they run with their head up, pretty darn quick and know how to tree and you don't have to cup your hand to your ear to hear them. Back to the All Blue thing. It seems that no matter how good a dog is, coloration sometimes henders them. Why is that? English folks don't mind and I've seen some dang sorry walkers as well. Good is good no matter the size, color ect... I've had good luck with these dogs and I think I will keep them for a while. JMO, which won't get you much these days. Great post! Keep it going.

Ron

Posted by max destruction on 09-09-2013 09:50 PM:

408 im not doubting your method but how is it working? Im still not seeing any bluedogs winning big?

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Posted by 408northville on 09-09-2013 10:08 PM:

Hi Rance,

No, by inbreeding and line breeding the family of hounds becomes more uniform in looks and ability with the breeder having the ability to select or have a breeders eye, variation in offspring will just be more subtle, much harder to see. But there will always be variation in littermates, look for ways to improve from those variation and it�s through these variations of littermates that improvement is made.
Outcrossing may produce one hound but as a whole in regards to improvement you start again.

JTG

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
wouldnt locking in ability traits be a different ballgame than locking in physical traits?

if you keep mixing the same stuff how does it improve?

if continous family breeding is the answer shouldnt the current hammer dogs coming from mr. dean's place be better than hammer 2 or 3 ect ect?

Posted by rance56 on 09-09-2013 10:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Jones
nope cause he is not physically able to hunt them like he once did. its not that easy and none of us have it figured out or we would be the intructors at the universitys, not repeating stuff that we read from them.

he is the only one capable of hunting them? im sure there would be a line a mile long to line up an hunt a top notch hammer dog for mr Dean.

alot of what u get from univeristies, not always the same as how things work in the real world

__________________
the oldest ride in the park, but still the longest line.

Posted by rance56 on 09-09-2013 10:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by 408northville
Hi Rance,

No, by inbreeding and line breeding the family of hounds becomes more uniform in looks and ability with the breeder having the ability to select or have a breeders eye, variation in offspring will just be more subtle, much harder to see. But there will always be variation in littermates, look for ways to improve from those variation and it�s through these variations of littermates that improvement is made.
Outcrossing may produce one hound but as a whole in regards to improvement you start again.

JTG

more uniform doesnt mean a better hound

__________________
the oldest ride in the park, but still the longest line.

Posted by HILLBILLYS BLU on 09-09-2013 10:14 PM:

Well....... There again no disrespect intendeed to anyone, just trying to educate myself... I don't understand how breeding Ol'Blue to Ol'Sue, and continue in that cycle, without anything new can better that line. I believe that instead of getting 2 out of eight decent dogs, your gonna start getting 6 out of eight, but that gene pool, is still only so big..... You have to add, something at sometime for improvement? Or am I looking at this wrong?

As far as Hot nosed, Compared to Cold nosed. I believe that the Hot nosed, get gone ,get treed, type dog is gonna beat the cold nosed dogs, most of the time In the compitition ring, On feeders, thick coon, etc. There again, That would be a preferance to me. All I'm saying is take the Hot Nosed dog out of his/her eliment, the game might be different.

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Posted by ov_blues on 09-09-2013 10:18 PM:

Re: MY GOODNESS

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Moore
I haven't heard so much indifference in a while. By the way, this is a very good thread John. I met your Dad many years ago and we had a wonderful conversation on the old Hammer dogs. He was a good man.

Over the last 40 some years I have hunted almost every Bluetick blood line out there. I have seen good and bad in all of them. I have been breeding these blue devils sense 1979 and I still haven't got them figured out. I have gone to the best with the best female I had and still got average results but I've always managed to keep a pretty nice hound around, (IMO). I love a Bluetick hound, period! Call me what you want. I've been with world Ch dogs and guess what, they will look bad too, they're just dogs, not machines, which by the way, sounds like many on here are looking for.

One thing I would like to bring up is the All Blue, (no tan trim) dog. I am hunting some now that go back to Shelton Morris' old Boomer stock. As a general rule, they run with their head up, pretty darn quick and know how to tree and you don't have to cup your hand to your ear to hear them. Back to the All Blue thing. It seems that no matter how good a dog is, coloration sometimes henders them. Why is that? English folks don't mind and I've seen some dang sorry walkers as well. Good is good no matter the size, color ect... I've had good luck with these dogs and I think I will keep them for a while. JMO, which won't get you much these days. Great post! Keep it going.

Ron

Thanks Ron. I think I was weaned listening to Dad and Dave. They both were inbreeding, linebreeding, family breeding when it wasn't a cool thing to do. lol.
What you just said about Boomer also refreshed my memory on some things I heard about him from Dad, and they were good things.

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Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Posted by BIG$BLUES on 09-09-2013 10:26 PM:

Re: tom jones?

quote:
Originally posted by prostockpat
i was trying to put the thread back on topic and
not "stir up trouble."

cracks me up though.....as soon as someone states a fact or opinion on what the blues need....guys get all bunched up and take it personal!!!

just so you know i've had a few 'nice' blueticks!!!
{off pounder,off son,and off mackie creek bo jack}

and i wasn't posting to you,unless you got more than 1 screen name?

Lots of truth in this post!!! I agree as far as comp hunts a hot nosed solid stay put treedog is the way to go

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Posted by ov_blues on 09-09-2013 10:36 PM:

I appreciate all the responses to this thread. I also understand and have first hand knowledge of linebreeding/ inbreeding, family breeding, and for several generations. I understand that one or two bad moves or life can take you away from it long enough to never be able to quite get it back if you are the only with access to that particular blood. So, there are risks involved in those practices just like there are risks going outside of a person's own little world. I've also realized that if you look, there are just as good of dogs somewhere with someone else's name in front of the dog's. Might be a little different but maybe just might mesh to make a better dog.

Without knowing the pedigree of a Blue female, if someone ask you what to breed her to if she needed more/less tree, more/less go, more/less nose, etc., what direction would you advise someone to go in?

Please keep on discussing, I'm still trying to learn!

__________________
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Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Posted by BIG$BLUES on 09-09-2013 10:47 PM:

I agree John the use of one sub par individual can wipe out what a line of hounds are known for and beleive it or not there is folk still breeding females just because they have the equipment to have puppy's

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NTCH DUVALL'S BIG MONEY SLIDDER

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Speak the truth it will set you free.

Posted by southernthunder on 09-10-2013 01:44 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
from what ive seen with bullet dogs, most direclty off of rattler.

early easy starting, one bark quick locators, fast-usually leading the pack, good mouths, stay put tree dogs with good locates and changeovers, if they are doing something they wont pull bascially no matter what, if they dont have something going on they will pack, competative type dogs. not mean or agressive, but will stay treed.

thats atleast the good that i experienced.

I agree, this is for the most part what I have seen or comp hunted against.

Posted by Tom Jones on 09-10-2013 01:48 AM:

rance

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
he is the only one capable of hunting them? im sure there would be a line a mile long to line up an hunt a top notch hammer dog for mr Dean.

alot of what u get from univeristies, not always the same as how things work in the real world

If you already have your opinion please don't ask a question then not agree with another's opinion. You seem to do that often now. If Dave ain't able to do it like he once could so he goes off someone else's decision then all he is really doing is putting the two hounds together right? He had a great run but he just can't truly evaluate them like he once could.

Lots of performance animals that were total outcrosses have reproduced and so did there offspring.

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405-471-7372

Posted by Tom Jones on 09-10-2013 01:56 AM:

mr smith

Talk to southerthunder and see what popatop again is throwing. He has close to a dozen titled hound out of under a 100 pups. I don't have any personal experience to give you. I have personally seen truck clouds from bullet 2 and several different females like you described. Good luck

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" an old wood burnin stove with no
natural gas "
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Posted by rance56 on 09-10-2013 03:05 AM:

Re: rance

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Jones
If you already have your opinion please don't ask a question then not agree with another's opinion. You seem to do that often now.

tom you seem to run your mouth alot here lately about what you know and what you had and what people should do ect ect.

what have you ever done or owned that makes you such a qualified person to give thier opinion all the dang time. i dont want to hear about shoulda coulda would ofs, just what have you an your dogs accomplished. ive tried to be polite to you and just discuss things but you go out of your way to try to start something with me.

and if you have a problem with anything i have said my number is 404-219-1199. now continue to talk about coon hunting while others are actually doing it. i.e INTERNET HUNTER!

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Posted by coonbone on 09-10-2013 04:03 AM:

I've hunted with enough Rambo II dogs to know that Rambo II put loud mouths,independence,and good conformation in his pups.
Also hunted with enough Bullet dogs to know that they tree layed up coons more often than most lines of dogs.
Noticed the Echo dogs win a lot of bench shows,and have seen where they have place in some big hunts.

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