UKC Forums - Great Rule Debate

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-- Great Rule Debate (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928325370)

Posted by juddman on 06-30-2013 07:30 PM:

How can you award someone circle points if majority of cast dnt agree its a circle tree I dnt no everything but have been in this situation on 2 different occasions and no tree points was awarded because there was not a majority of cast vote don't see how you can award a dog circle points with out a majority vote nor could you minus or plus tree with out a majority vote

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Posted by Bob Hennessey on 06-30-2013 07:56 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by juddman
[B]How can you award someone circle points if majority of cast dnt agree its a circle tree I dnt no everything but have been in this situation on 2 different occasions and no tree points was awarded because there was not a majority of cast vote don't see how you can award a dog circle points with out a majority vote

3 dog cast. 1 handler votes plus. 1 handler votes minus. and 1 handler votes circle.
4 dog cast 2 handlers vote minus. 2 handlers vote plus. Tree is Circled. All tie votes with hunting judge is circled.

On the 2 occasions you mentioned, how did you score it If it was a tie vote?

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-30-2013 07:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by juddman
How can you award someone circle points if majority of cast dnt agree its a circle tree I dnt no everything but have been in this situation on 2 different occasions and no tree points was awarded because there was not a majority of cast vote don't see how you can award a dog circle points with out a majority vote nor could you minus or plus tree with out a majority vote

It would greatly benefit some of you guys to read the rules. not just read them but study them. judd, anytime you cant reach a majority be it minus, or plus the tree is circled everytime. Deleting a tree is NEVER an option when scoring a tree unless the dog went back to a previously scored tree.

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Posted by JiM on 06-30-2013 08:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ssgied
ALL cast members MUST vote on how to score each and every tree, this means it is also mandatory for ALL cast members to go to each tree and participate in the scoring. Anything short of this is a scratchable offense, even in the essence of saving time it is not permissible to do it any other way. A cast member still retains their right to vote even if they are scratched, so the only time they loose that right is when they load up and go home. Page 118,119 Advisor.

Yep, you are absolutely right on that.
But everytime I have ever seen it come up in a hunt, everyone agreed to let that 4th guy go handle his dog and wait at his tree till the other 3 score their tree. Never seen it go back to the MOH. However, if any one of those 4 handlers isn't onboard with doing it that way, you better just sit on your hands at that first tree till the 4th guy gets back and then score it. And no, you can't call timeout while you wait .

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Posted by juddman on 06-30-2013 08:15 PM:

Sounds like I got screwed last year at eng days we had a 2 and 2 vote and it got deleted I guess That's the way it goes lol sorry if I've offended you guys I was just trying to find out the rite way to score it. Sure dnt seem fair to receive points be it plus minus or circle if there's not a majority vote oh well I didn't write the rules lol

Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 06-30-2013 10:05 PM:

Jud, circled points are only good for a tie breaker.

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Posted by juddman on 06-30-2013 10:34 PM:

Yes I know and if I would of had 50 more circle points instead of deleted I would have been cast winner

Posted by JiM on 06-30-2013 10:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by juddman
Yes I know and if I would of had 50 more circle points instead of deleted I would have been cast winner

I was gonna ask if anyone had ever actually seen a cast winner determined by the 4th tiebreaker but apparently juddman has. I bet it is purty rare though.

Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 06-30-2013 10:40 PM:

Bum deal.....knowledge of the rules helps alotbof people win a cast because the judge ain't always the smartest about the rules.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 06-30-2013 10:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by juddman
Yes I know and if I would of had 50 more circle points instead of deleted I would have been cast winner

Circle points are 4th down the list of tie breakers, im sure what you say is possible but it would be a very rare thing. You would first have to be tied 1 least minus 2 most plus tree points. 3 most plus strike points. 4 most circle tree points.

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Posted by juddman on 06-30-2013 11:00 PM:

Yep that's the way it goes I've talked to 3 master of hounds and they have all said if there is a 2 and 2 vote on a scoreing a tree it gets deleted I think UKC needs to make this more clear because it seems that I'm not the only one that thinks it takes a majority vote lol oh well

Posted by john Duemmer on 06-30-2013 11:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by juddman
Yep that's the way it goes I've talked to 3 master of hounds and they have all said if there is a 2 and 2 vote on a scoreing a tree it gets deleted I think UKC needs to make this more clear because it seems that I'm not the only one that thinks it takes a majority vote lol oh well

I see from your signature you have a dog with some PKC. money won, i think you might be confusing the rules because in PKC a tie is a delete, but not in UKC.

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Posted by RACII1174 on 06-30-2013 11:20 PM:

the cast should remain together . if your going to tie a seperate dog then it should be tied before shine time starts otherwise the first tree is shined and scored then proceed to the next tree rule states a dog must remain treed atleast five minutes so in some cases it might be treed longer

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-30-2013 11:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by RACII1174
the cast should remain together . if your going to tie a seperate dog then it should be tied before shine time starts otherwise the first tree is shined and scored then proceed to the next tree rule states a dog must remain treed atleast five minutes so in some cases it might be treed longer

The rules also say permission will be given to a dog thats treed split after the 5 is up.

Posted by Bob Hennessey on 07-01-2013 01:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I was gonna ask if anyone had ever actually seen a cast winner determined by the 4th tiebreaker but apparently juddman has. I bet it is purty rare though.

I was the guide on our last RQE and the cast winner came down to the most CIRCLED STRIKE POINTS. I've been hunting in UKC night hunts 50 years and MOH almost that long and that was the first time I ever seen that, guess no matter how long you been hunting something new can come up. It was a good cast winning dog won on the last tree.

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Posted by V.R. Eakins on 07-01-2013 03:15 AM:

Coon Hound Advisor

You are correct Mr. A, I do read the advisor, just not into the 'cut and past' but sure would like to see it as a whole just like the "rules" are on the web site as a whole body of work.

Posted by buck brush on 07-01-2013 01:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Yep, you are absolutely right on that.
But everytime I have ever seen it come up in a hunt, everyone agreed to let that 4th guy go handle his dog and wait at his tree till the other 3 score their tree. Never seen it go back to the MOH. However, if any one of those 4 handlers isn't onboard with doing it that way, you better just sit on your hands at that first tree till the 4th guy gets back and then score it. And no, you can't call timeout while you wait .

Jim you can stop your shine time clock though right and start it when he gets back?

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 07-01-2013 01:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by buck brush
Jim you can stop your shine time clock though right and start it when he gets back?

Once the shine time starts it can't be stopped. You can't call a timeout during shine time for a handler to go tie his dog and then come back. He either stays the entire shine time or not.

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Posted by JiM on 07-01-2013 01:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by buck brush
Jim you can stop your shine time clock though right and start it when he gets back?

Yes, the shinetime can stop but not the hunt time. But that is just MY opinion, UKC may say otherwise.
The rulebook nor the Advisor has ever tackled that one specifically that I know of. But whether I'm judging or not, I'm not gonna stand there and let my shinetime run down while the tree CANNOT be scored because we don't have all cast members present UNLESS the one that is gone has said " go ahead and score it with out me" AND we still have a majority (3 of 4) scoring the tree.
If I gotta wait for that 4th handler to return before we can score the tree, that shinetime is stopping until he returns. It would be totally unfair to have the shining clock run down while there is no legal majority present to score the tree.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 07-01-2013 02:04 PM:

I thought that the rule said that the judge "may" give permission for a handler to go handle his dog on a split tree???? Doesn't the handler have to ask the judge for "permission" to go handle his dog? If that handler doesn't agree to the rest of the cast scoring the tree without him, then he doesn't get to go and handle his dog.

Posted by JiM on 07-01-2013 02:20 PM:

No, that rule says "shall", not "may". Big difference.
I may be wrong but I have always interpreted the rule as saying the handler must ask the judge permission to go handle his dog and the judge must give that permission to go handle if the dogs tree is dead.
Requiring a handler to ask for something that must be provided may not make sense at first but I have always figured the reason for requiring the handler to ask first is so the judge can keep control and always know where everyone is and where they are going as opposed to a handler just leaving to go handle his dog without the judge even knowing about it.

Posted by JiM on 07-01-2013 02:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I thought that the rule said that the judge "may" give permission for a handler to go handle his dog on a split tree???? Doesn't the handler have to ask the judge for "permission" to go handle his dog? If that handler doesn't agree to the rest of the cast scoring the tree without him, then he doesn't get to go and handle his dog.

PKC uses the term "may" give permission, UKC uses the term "shall" give permission.

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