UKC Forums - UKC/Teaching Bench Show Judges?

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Posted by Dale Young on 05-28-2013 07:41 PM:

We all need to drop the stress and enjoy the events . The time will soon be upon me that a visit to a show like Oaks to see old friends may be the high light of my year and shortly thereafter the new handlers will wonder who I am or was . That's life and the way it's always been an will be . Enjoy it while you can cause most of the world could care less .

Posted by Cleo on 05-28-2013 07:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Young
We all need to drop the stress and enjoy the events . The time will soon be upon me that a visit to a show like Oaks to see old friends may be the high light of my year and shortly thereafter the new handlers will wonder who I am or was . That's life and the way it's always been an will be . Enjoy it while you can cause most of the world could care less .

That is so true. When the fun is taken out of something its time to quit.

It is, after all, a dog show. Enjoy it. If that can't be done, then don't ruin it for everyone who is!

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Posted by Cleo on 05-28-2013 07:50 PM:

Cynthia ~ Don't sell yourself short. You are a blessing to this sport and to hound owners in general. There are very few people like you. I'm glad you take such a roll in the bench shows.

Posted by LMBEDDINGFIELD on 05-28-2013 08:12 PM:

Love to show and Love to Judge but this kind of stuff is why I have stepped back lately and not did a whole lot... after B&T Days I needed a break !!!!!!!

I judge on the ground and on the bench and I have taken dogs down to reevaluate when needed... always have always will... Gate is a part of it and needs to be looked at always!!!

Right now watching my son play baseball is a lot more fun lol!!!!!

__________________
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Posted by SCBluetickGal on 05-28-2013 09:23 PM:

I'm not going to say all that's in my head about this particular topic. But I will say, I also wish more judges would be utilized instead of the same people every couple months. For example...I've been to at least one day of my state's Purina event almost every year for the past 5 years. Except for ONE day on ONE year I went, the same two judges have judged every single year. Haven't even switched days. If that continues to be the case, I won't be going and taking a handful of dogs to pay entry fees on like I have in past years anymore. Nothing personal against the judges themselves, I just don't think it's right. And I know I'm not the only one having that thought...I'm just the only one that will openly say it right now!

I will also add, I do think some sort of education is needed. Sure, opinion will sometimes play a part when it comes to interpreting breed standard. But if the dog's gait is truly going to become a more important part of the judging process, then judges need to get on the same page about what correct movement is. The mechanics of proper gait and general locomotion isn't much of an "opinion" if you ask me. You can ask for more work on the ground all you want, but if you can't recognize correct movement it's a moot point.

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Jessica O'Connor
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Posted by Jon Gun on 05-28-2013 09:26 PM:

This sounds a lot like a church. You have some wanting to make it the biggest and best that it can be while others sit on the back pew and grumble because the choir didnt sing the same three hymns theyve been singing every Sunday for 30 years..

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Posted by Cleo on 05-28-2013 10:08 PM:

I addressed that before Jessica. I agree with you 100%. If there isn't some changes there will be very little participation

Posted by Dale Young on 05-29-2013 01:02 PM:

One last opinion to muddy the waters some more . The breed standards are there so we supposedly have a reference to refer to when looking at any particular breed . The dog don't have to be a 100% perfect example to be within the breed standard they just have to meet those standards . Judging is trying to pick the dog that BEST meets the standard . Two can be so close that a judge can pick a Walker with darker tan coloring versus light tan coloring because it just looks better to that particular judge . Every other judge might see it just the opposite . Sometimes that's why people ask who's judging before driving across country at $4/gal.
Standards weren't written to force anyone to have a perfect dog in a bench show , conformation ring or even at the Westminster. The Judge is GOD ALMIGHTY for the period of time you & your dog are in their control .

Again :
Talk UKC into posting a VERY GOOD & VERY CORRECT video on here for everyone's reference , just one so we we all study the same thing.
May not help, kinda like studying religion . I think religion has caused death & dying thru war and terrorists attacks thru out history but most don't see it that way . To each their own .

Posted by blocksporthound on 05-29-2013 01:22 PM:

You brought up a good topic with color. In the AKC all breed arena we deal with "type". I also show Scottish Deerhounds and there are two or three types. all Deerhounds, all fit the breed standard, but look vastly different. Of course the breeders of the different types will argue that their type is best. What has evolved is we have deerhounds with not a ton of coat, a medium to long coat and yaks. Wooly beasts. If there is a judge that historically has put up the "yaks" all the typey not a lot of coat deerhounds won't show up to show to that judge.

I have had some say to me that you need to show to anyone. That is not necessarily true and it doesn't make your dog less or more for showing to that judge. It simply means you did your homework and recognized a type that particular judge likes. Unfortunately we don't have past entries to look at before entering a show online but you can look through old magazines for the bigger shows.

I haven't been in coonhounds long but I have made my living at dogs for decades. I think we are already starting to see bigger, leggier dogs. I breed a lot of hunting dogs and they are largely smaller, broader chested and have larger heads than their show only counterparts. I would think with coonhounds now being welcome in the AKC all breed world we will see two distinct types develop. The show dog and the working dog. I just hope like all the other breeds out there this breed doesn't get ruined by massive amounts of inbreeding/line breeding to create a "type". Twinning genes twins both the good and desirable genes but also the problems you would like to get rid of and brings it right back front and center. This is how health problems develop. The Boxer people are finally not allowing two DM carriers to breed as they are trying to undo all the damage. The gene pool in coonhounds is huge in comparison to other breeds. I personally hope it stays that way!

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Posted by SCBluetickGal on 05-29-2013 05:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cleo
I addressed that before Jessica. I agree with you 100%. If there isn't some changes there will be very little participation

I think the fact that folks don't feel comfortable bringing it up to a higher power speaks volumes about what so many people worry about concerning judges and the bench show environment in general. Not just here, but throughout the country. I like to think that those running our state event would welcome concerns and be open to making some changes, but it's sad that nobody wants to speak up for fear of being "black balled." I know that's why I haven't said more about it than what I touched on here. The sad truth of the matter is that it's acceptable for some to make complaints or buck the system a little bit, but it's NOT acceptable for many others to do the same. Maybe if the entry is very small next year the point will be taken. Now, I've probably said too much...but since I'm no longer out 2 weekends or more of the month throwing money away on showing dogs, I don't suppose it matters. The dogs are just as happy not traveling as much, and it sure is more enjoyable for me to only hit the events I know will actually be FUN these days.

Posted by Dale Young on 05-29-2013 06:51 PM:

I make it a point not to blow up at anybody that isn't standing in my face but I express opinions & sometimes ideas to others . Surprising sometimes what shows up a year or two down the road if something appeals to enough people to get mentioned and talked about . Never should blow a fuse or threaten anybody . I seldom if ever ask a judge why I didn't win , they obviously liked another dog better so what's the point besides hearing something I proably don't want to hear . When the shows over your opinion is worth more than anyone else's if you want to feed the dog .

Posted by okietreedog on 05-29-2013 07:20 PM:

rofl

I have to say as a bench show judge i would love to see more info put out there by ukc, i will jump in and say the lack of training on the lower level shows does have quite the effect on judging it is very hard to judge a dog gait when it is being drug along by the handler. In those descions one must do the best they can with the hand they are dealt, kinda like my grandpa use to say if you win the rat race your still a d*** rat.

Coming from a livestock background i feel that gait or soundness is very important in the make up of an animal be a hog or a dog. i have seen both that looked great standing still but came apart when you watched them travel, both i feel would cause the hog or dog to have problem doing there job be it moving on a slat floor and eating till they are ready to butcher or being asked to chase and tree something on a daily basis.

__________________
______________________________

Adam Davis, owner handler Backwoods Blues
Home of some trashy culls,
it ain't the years it the miles that make me look this way

Posted by Ky Show Girl on 05-30-2013 02:32 AM:

Re: rofl

quote:
Originally posted by okietreedog
I have to say as a bench show judge i would love to see more info put out there by ukc, i will jump in and say the lack of training on the lower level shows does have quite the effect on judging it is very hard to judge a dog gait when it is being drug along by the handler. In those descions one must do the best they can with the hand they are dealt, kinda like my grandpa use to say if you win the rat race your still a d*** rat.

Coming from a livestock background i feel that gait or soundness is very important in the make up of an animal be a hog or a dog. i have seen both that looked great standing still but came apart when you watched them travel, both i feel would cause the hog or dog to have problem doing there job be it moving on a slat floor and eating till they are ready to butcher or being asked to chase and tree something on a daily basis.

who says you have to pick 1?

Posted by H. L. Meyer on 05-30-2013 02:54 AM:

The longer this post is up

The more instering it gets.

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Posted by R.lee prater on 05-30-2013 03:17 AM:

Re: The longer this post is up

quote:
Originally posted by H. L. Meyer
The more instering it gets.

GET'S A SMILE OUT OF US OLD TIMER'S DOESN'T IT H.L.

Posted by R.lee prater on 05-30-2013 12:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Young
I make it a point not to blow up at anybody that isn't standing in my face but I express opinions & sometimes ideas to others . Surprising sometimes what shows up a year or two down the road if something appeals to enough people to get mentioned and talked about . Never should blow a fuse or threaten anybody . I seldom if ever ask a judge why I didn't win , they obviously liked another dog better so what's the point besides hearing something I proably don't want to hear . When the shows over your opinion is worth more than anyone else's if you want to feed the dog .

Dale my hat is off to you. The first time we met you was showing a nice walker female. I have stood on the side line's for year's watching you and your dog's. You and your dog's did it on their on. Alway's win or lose first class.

Posted by H. L. Meyer on 05-30-2013 02:08 PM:

R.lee prater

90 day wonders, I think I have heard that phrese used before. And most of um aint never been in the dark unless they forgot to turn the light on inside the house must less turn a dog loose to go hunting and NOW they know what it takes to have a good hunting dog by watching it GAIT around a bench GO FIGURE. That aught to light up this post. BUT guess what don't give a whistlers D$%%^&*&**M . H L

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Posted by HistoryNutt on 05-30-2013 02:12 PM:

Re: R.lee prater

quote:
Originally posted by H. L. Meyer
90 day wonders, I think I have heard that phrese used before. And most of um aint never been in the dark unless they forgot to turn the light on inside the house must less turn a dog loose to go hunting and NOW they know what it takes to have a good hunting dog by watching it GAIT around a bench GO FIGURE. That aught to light up this post. BUT guess what don't give a whistlers D$%%^&*&**M . H L

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Posted by Dale Young on 05-30-2013 02:38 PM:

I have to say I'm getting way to old to ride that pony .

Posted by Dale Young on 05-30-2013 02:45 PM:

Re: R.lee prater

quote:
Originally posted by H. L. Meyer
90 day wonders, I think I have heard that phrese used before. And most of um aint never been in the dark unless they forgot to turn the light on inside the house must less turn a dog loose to go hunting and NOW they know what it takes to have a good hunting dog by watching it GAIT around a bench GO FIGURE. That aught to light up this post. BUT guess what don't give a whistlers D$%%^&*&**M . H L

H.L.
That's what they were told at the Westminster so it must be right .

Posted by okietreedog on 05-31-2013 09:59 PM:

Re: Re: rofl

quote:
Originally posted by Ky Show Girl
who says you have to pick 1?

if they meet breed standards you better pick one or i figure ukc would be asking for you to turn in your bench show judge License at the request of the folks paying you to judge their show

__________________
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Adam Davis, owner handler Backwoods Blues
Home of some trashy culls,
it ain't the years it the miles that make me look this way

Posted by R.lee prater on 06-01-2013 02:11 PM:

Re: Re: Re: rofl

[QUOTE]Originally posted by okietreedog
if they meet breed standards you better pick one or i figure ukc would be asking for you to turn in your bench show judge License at the request of the folks paying you to judge their show [/QUOT] Year's ago when I was a UKC judge and moh . Twice I didn't place a dogs. Afterward's I talked to Fred Miller and he said that i did the right thing. If you made the right call he would back you 100%.

Posted by David Gardin on 06-01-2013 02:24 PM:

judges

i think the classes that they held at oaks were good when they started but then we got to comparing hounds to other breeds and people lost interest i would like to see a dvd made for judges to be able to get to educate them in the future there are some good judges out there that never get a chance to judge the bigger shows that should and there is judges judges that are used at small shows that should not be able to judge a small show

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Posted by okietreedog on 06-01-2013 04:09 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: rofl

quote:
Originally posted by R.lee prater
[QUOTE]Originally posted by okietreedog
if they meet breed standards you better pick one or i figure ukc would be asking for you to turn in your bench show judge License at the request of the folks paying you to judge their show [/QUOT] Year's ago when I was a UKC judge and moh . Twice I didn't place a dogs. Afterward's I talked to Fred Miller and he said that i did the right thing. If you made the right call he would back you 100%.

Did those dogs meet breed standards and not have fault that calls for disqualification?

__________________
______________________________

Adam Davis, owner handler Backwoods Blues
Home of some trashy culls,
it ain't the years it the miles that make me look this way

Posted by Pat Bizich on 06-02-2013 04:38 AM:

The lack of a response from anyone at UKC is deafening.

Is anyone up there listening??

There is a column monthly to interpret the nite hunt rules.

There is a published handbook (2nd Edition) to help interpret and set a guideline for nite hunt rules .Both MOH and competitors benefit.

All that is currently available for the show portion is a pocket size handbook outlining the breed standards.

Why is there a lack of the same similar guidelines and imformation available to aid a Show Judge ,bench show competitors,as well as newcomers to showing dogs what is correct?

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