UKC Forums - puzzled about cross breeds

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Posted by gfults on 03-20-2013 07:08 PM:

The last thing we need is to argue among ourselves as bnt men about breeding. I know there are some nice dogs out there in the breed. Matt, I hear Trip is nice along with some other dogs out there. I feel like Jr is a really nice hound as well. I'd hunt him against anything there is, but I still feel like our breed is lacking in some areas. Sometimes stepping outside the box is a very good thing. Flatrock Clackston is about the best and quickest natural strike dogs Ive ever seen, and I wont rest until I get a strike dog of that caliber. Sometimes we as bnt men only compare to dogs in our breed and that can set us back at times. When was the last time we had a black dog to win big and consistent on a major stage?? SS, World hunt, Nationals, Prohuntsetc?

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Posted by gfults on 03-20-2013 07:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by berger
A coondog will still beat a strike dog 5 out of 7 times.
Now a coondog that strikes quick is tough to beat!!

I agree. We got the coondogs in the breed. Why not make them faster too. Hell, Im greedy.lol

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Posted by BLACKNTANS on 03-20-2013 07:16 PM:

Fults- I agree we need alot stronger points within our breed. Some lines need better striking ability others need more hunt, independence, and stay put treeing. I also know that other breeds have to answer the same questions. We have the B&T's to compete but we need to take the blinders off and cull harder for better competition dogs.

To each their own and there are registries that honor crossbreeding.

As a member of the ABTCHA i would like to promote the betterment of the American Black and Tan breed as a whole and to influence the breeding of a better and finer American Black and Tan coonhound with the affliation of the United Kennel Club Inc.

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Posted by BLACKNTANS on 03-20-2013 07:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by gfults
[ When was the last time we had a black dog to win big and consistent on a major stage?? SS, World hunt, Nationals, Prohuntsetc? [/B]

We all need to hang out with Cory Sexton more!!!!
Skipper & Sport

Posted by gfults on 03-20-2013 07:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BLACKNTANS
Fults- I agree we need alot stronger points within our breed. Some lines need better striking ability others need more hunt, independence, and stay put treeing. I also know that other breeds have to answer the same questions. We have the B&T's to compete but we need to take the blinders off and cull harder for better competition dogs.

To each their own and there are registries that honor crossbreeding.

As a member of the ABTCHA i would like to promote the betterment of the American Black and Tan breed as a whole and to influence the breeding of a better and finer American Black and Tan coonhound with the affliation of the United Kennel Club Inc.

I agree about culling more. It amazes me the dogs some guys will not only hunt in hunts, but the ones they breed and offer at stud as well. I think the best and quickest way to correct a bad trait is to go to extreme. Not just go to the ideal. If you breed a dog thats tight to an ideal strike dog, my theory is you'll probably get one thats a mediocre strike dog. If you breed the tight dog to one thats really wired up and half nuts thats a babbling nut, then balance should prevail and you get that ideal strike dog.

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Posted by gfults on 03-20-2013 07:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BLACKNTANS
We all need to hang out with Cory Sexton more!!!!
Skipper & Sport

Corey got it going on. There needs to be more than just a couple dogs on that list tho. Thats kinda my whole point with all this. If the bnts are so well equipped with what it takes to win big, then why aint we doing it? We need to step it up.

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Posted by toddwicks on 03-20-2013 08:18 PM:

Man ,I must have a pretty good ole hound,i can sure say me Hammer have won several casts against 3 walkers at a time. I can name numerous casts Hammer has won against all walkers.Hammers only problem is me.
I got a wife and daughter .My daughter plays softball,and i have to work and survive. As far as the dog ,ive seen him take tracks away from walkers and run off and leave em sitting.Track speed and accuracy,I got it.
I just wish i could promote him like Cory and some of the other guys.
It is what it is,I compete when i can. I think that is the prob with most bnt men.
Got the dog power,just cant always make it to town. Heck i was fortunate to do what i did last year.

__________________
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Gr Nt CH TREE SLAMMIN HAMMER

2011 RQE NEWPORT,TN 5 TH PLACE
2011 WORLD Qualifier
2011 BnT Days Cast Winner
2012 Cast Winner TN State
2012 3 rd Place Grnt,s BNT days
2012 World Qualifier Meigs Cnty RQE 4 rth place
2012 zones Virginia 4rth place
2012 TOP 100 WORLD HUNT
2013 4th high scoring dog fri night,TN State
2014 World Qualifier

Nt Ch Hammers Black Bear
2014 World Qualifier

Nt Ch Hammers Bigtime Drama
2014 World Qualifier

Posted by gfults on 03-20-2013 08:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by toddwicks
Man ,I must have a pretty good ole hound,i can sure say me Hammer have won several casts against 3 walkers at a time. I can name numerous casts Hammer has won against all walkers.Hammers only problem is me.
I got a wife and daughter .My daughter plays softball,and i have to work and survive. As far as the dog ,ive seen him take tracks away from walkers and run off and leave em sitting.Track speed and accuracy,I got it.
I just wish i could promote him like Cory and some of the other guys.
It is what it is,I compete when i can. I think that is the prob with most bnt men.
Got the dog power,just cant always make it to town. Heck i was fortunate to do what i did last year.

Nobody said you didnt have a good dog todd! But you look around and be honest with yourself, how many black dogs do you see winning on a major stage consistently?? Yall can get mad at me all ya want, I dont care! Im speaking the truth and if yall would be honest with yourselves, yall would know that. As long as ive been posting on this board ive learned that nobody wanhts to hear the truth. They just wanna hear how great everything is! Until we as a breed take the blinders off its gonna be that way. Im sure you got a nice dog Todd, but if all the breed has is a few scattered here and there, then the breed is lacking. If we aint constantly trying to better the breed regardless of what it takes then we're hurting the breed.

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Posted by mike mizell on 03-20-2013 08:48 PM:

Fults
i have drawn deana and clackston a couple times.
i got a whole different oppinion on em.yes i have won against them.yes i have been beat by claxton.

Posted by gfults on 03-20-2013 08:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mike mizell
Fults
i have drawn deana and clackston a couple times.
i got a whole different oppinion on em.yes i have won against them.yes i have been beat by claxton.

I pleasure hunted with Clackston nightly and handled him in hunts. What I know about Clackston is alot. Ive beat him too but thats not gonna happen every night! I didnt even mention Dena.

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Posted by mike mizell on 03-20-2013 09:17 PM:

when i hunted with her.she was quick.
you know clackston alott better than i do.i just hunted against him.i never had the chance to pleasure hunt with him.
Ronnie always packs a top dog.

Posted by gfults on 03-20-2013 09:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mike mizell
when i hunted with her.she was quick.
you know clackston alott better than i do.i just hunted against him.i never had the chance to pleasure hunt with him.
Ronnie always packs a top dog.

**** right he does.

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Posted by James Tolliver on 03-20-2013 10:04 PM:

There are a lot of hands raised saying, we need to spike the Black and Tan dogs, WITH OTHER BREEDS, my question is; why?

I do agree Alot of black dogs does not have what it takes
to compete big.

JMO,
1'st thing people should do before going outside the breed is thoroughly check out "other hounds" that you hear some good things about and KNOWINGLY that kept a possitive reputation in winning at a "bigger level",, dogs/lineage and have placed in "several generations" in big hunts...

People are closed minded in not making better breeding habits, If you feel your left out of dog power, First, change what you been doing, do your homework, get experienced in what other dogs are doing or have accomplished!! one thing i advise is walk away from your clique and do this for yourself, even if it causes hard feelings, remember your the one being left out of winning..
and go Check other dogs making some noise and their track record!
If it's not working for you and your hound- CHANGE IT!

The line of dogs i hunt today goes back 40 YEARS into the 1970's, that consist of:
Gentleman Jim- ACHA,world Champion.
Piney Creek Cash- 1984 PCA/PKC World Champion.
Combs & Smiths Smokey- Reserve 2'nd place UKC World hunt.
Chenoweth's Smokey II - 1994 Purina Race overall winner.
Cypress Brake Set Um Up Ace- Reserve World Champion.
Justus River Valley Annie - Autum Oaks overall winner.

A dog i owned produced-Chenoweth's Sue - 2008 Purina race overall winner.

Our Smokey 7 has this blood, plus i gained Dylans Duelin Dan, RubyII and Myer's Mighty Hoss..
Do i need to look outside the breed? I don't think so.

I know where I'm at dog wise. Now it's up to
time and chance with the right handler to acheive our goals.
I'm satisfied.

__________________
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Posted by Dirtdevil on 03-20-2013 10:50 PM:

Those old dogs were 10-1 more competitive than dogs today ... and they were 10-1 more crossed up.

In the " here and now " .... Hardrock , Lil' Red and some others have shown folks a shortcut to winning big .

Unless someone can produce purebreds right now that are winning like the old dogs or the crosses .... then you are preaching to hear yourself talk and getting yourself worked up for no reason.

I'm not saying to crossbred ... just that the truth don't need to be ignored or argued with .

Bigfoot's pups will just be 1/8 Walker ... who in their right mind would really say that's a big deal.

Posted by J I Allen on 03-20-2013 11:07 PM:

Dirtdevil, you claim those dogs from the past were 10-1 crossed up more than todays black & tans, prove it. Tell us about all those crossed up dogs you always want to talk about. I hunted black dogs back in those days and I don't remember all these dogs being crossed. Tell us about all these crosses and what were the crosses, curious minds want to know.

Posted by Dirtdevil on 03-20-2013 11:20 PM:

You ever read Carl Minehart's story about Tiger Lilly ?

You ever heard about Sunvalley Butch or the original Hardrock?

Lawson's Big Hoss ?

But , the reason for anyone to breed PR dogs or single register a dog ... or use a dog with single registered dogs in their pedigree doesn't need justification ... you just do it becaue you want to.

The rules allow for single registration ... when folks follow the rules and then other members call those dogs crossbreds and slander those dogs that someone likes and feeds ... they are out of line ... the intentions may be good , but the execution is low class.

Posted by mike mizell on 03-21-2013 12:37 AM:

after reading everything posted here.im going to go buy me a pup train it and see for myself how well it will do.

Posted by James Tolliver on 03-21-2013 01:03 AM:

Dirt devil,

Closest thing to the here and now? hmm.
See if i can bring you up to speed,
Chenoweth's Sue 2008 Purina race overall winner was not won back in the 1970's, 80's, or the 1990's but in 2008!
Now, it's the 2000-teens and we are going to do all we can to mark the 2000teens with a World Champion, and i'm not guessing if we have dog power to get it done..

You might give it some thought to cross Booger Hollow Mojo into your black dogs, since this is how you think dogs like lil red and others are made. he's been the hottest thing out in the walker hound world for some time now.
My hat is off to Mojo and all involved with him, he is and Amazing Coondog!!! many times over..
But take notes my friend, Chenoweth's Sue beat Mojo in the 2008 Purina Race.

If i was going to cross breed, I'd start with Mojo, but i don't need to.

Posted by roughcreek on 03-21-2013 01:06 AM:

its a sad day when guys give up on their breed & think we need to go outside the breed to improve it !! all you got to do is watch this board.

what should i breed my female to?
the same ones get on here, breed to this, breed to that, with out using common sence & aint got a clue what traits the female has. you just blurt out the same thing over & over & over & aint got a clue on strong points or week points. probly most aint even hunted with the dog or MOST IMPORTANT WHAT THAT DOG IS REPRODUCING. their tellin people to breed to this dog because its your buddy or your buddys buddy that owns the dog !!

my females got a hole in her what do i breed to, to fix it in her pups !!
its a constant circle i breed to fix this then i breed to fix that then i breed to fix the next hole. next thing you know 20 years down the road your still trying to fix somethin & aint got no better.

a post i seen on here a week or so ago about tight mouth dogs & other post about tight mouth dogs. i was shocked at the b&t people that said they like & want a tight mouth dog. then we get on here & wonder why we cant win. hell we'r breedin to loose !!

then you look at the people in the b&t breed that want & breed for a super cold nose dog thats gona hit a bad track & woller that thing around for a half hour to tree a coon. while the hoter nose dog has dun scored a coon & cut back in & runnin another track while ol poky is finaly getin tree'd. the other dog is a coon or two ahead of you & workin on another. now i aint knockin on the cold nose dog. they can win & do win. there is nights they can smoke ya BUT what are your walker dogs the dogs that win the big hunts as a whole. get their nose off the ground hotter nosed with drive to get in the country quick & get under a coon quick.

so you'v got this style black dog. a little hotter nose drive & speed solid treedog. something that is a constant competitor. the 1st time you breed to a cold nose dog you lost what you had !! the 1st time you breed to a dog with a super mouth that is not the same style dog your huntin. you lost what you got. the 1st time you breed for a 150 bpm treedog thats not the same style dog. you lost what you got. my feeling is breed for strenghts & not to try to change. breed to improve your dogs strength & let the rest fall into place. hopefully thats drive speed & a solid treedog. one that aint peckin tree's all over the woods & takin last strike.

if you go to the woods & your happy every night when you come out YOU AINT GOT YOUR EYES OPEN. YOU AINT BEING TRUTHFULL WITH YOUR SELF ABOUT YOUR DOG !! if you can go out on a night your dog cant do nothin wrong & cant pick it apart & see something that could have been dun better. you aint bein truthfull with yourself !!

THATS WHAT THE MAIN PROBLEM WITH OUR BREED IS. IF WE CANT BE TRUTHFULL WITH OUR SELF ABOUT OUR DOGS FAULTS. OUR BREED AINT NEVER GONA IMPROVE !!

maybe i didnt do the best job of trying to discuss MIXING different style dogs. i wasnt tryin to step on no toes or down any style dog. just talkin about the difference in dogs & not mixing them together.

WE DONT NEED TO BREED TO WALKERS OR ANYTHING ELSE TO IMPROVE. WE NEED TO MAKE BETTER DICISIONS ON WHAT WE'R BREEDIN & WHY !!

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Posted by Dirtdevil on 03-21-2013 01:19 AM:

I don't hunt B&T's for the color ... for our hunting , the best we've found are these dogs ... I'll stick with em as long as that remains true .

I don't wanna crossbreed , I got what I like ... just want more.

But , single registration and the winning streak dogs like Hardrock and Lil Red put on aint about opinions or what we think ... it has been done and will be done and you can't tell folks it won't work when it has ... end of story.

Crossbreeding is a big chore ... the odds of finding a nick and then blending it back in are slim and the process was better suited back in the days when dog food was cheap and guys had more hunting ground .... the working man is better off staying with a line that works for him.

I'd vote to do away with it just to put and end to hearing folks ramble on about crossbreeding ruining the breed and see what they come up with to cry about next .

Posted by Bryan W. Jones on 03-21-2013 01:20 AM:

the difference

The biggest problem with the hounds of today is all the "stacking" in the pedigrees in my opinion , doubled up on all the bad as well as the good . Step out of the comfort zone and breed proven reproducing coondogs together . Years ago folks bred straight off ability , regardless of how the papers looked......or who owned em .

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Posted by toddwicks on 03-21-2013 01:47 AM:

There is some good stuff on here. Enjoyed your post Jim .
As for me ,i love what i got,that is the very reason im doing a lil line breeding with a touch of outcross here and there in hopes of keeping what i have and not ever letting it get away from me. I like what i got enough to wanna keep it.
To me a man trying to keep what he has,must love it.lol.Just hope i can keep it and improve on it.

Posted by chaps red oak on 03-21-2013 01:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by gfults
What some of yall dont realize is that crossbreeding isnt done to necessarily produce a winner right off the first litter. Its done to take dogs that pass breed standards and brred back to other black dogs to add something into the gene pool that the breed is missing. And regardless what blinders have made some believe, the breed is missing! Anybody that thinks they have what it takes to consistently beat the walker dogs, go to 6 or 7 PKC hunts, especially in southern middle tennessee and see how well you do. If you dont get in after a few hunts, that should tell ya. Going to 1 and getting lucky dont mean anything.

gfults me an wally try real hard!! better be easy you hurt some feelings lol

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Posted by Charles Pullen on 03-21-2013 05:19 AM:

If people would hunt with the hound before breeding , then they might get what they want in their hounds .

Posted by roughcreek on 03-21-2013 06:19 AM:

todd

i think your on the right track line breeding. being very picky to breed females for yourself that complement what you already got with out changing what you got.

look at the walkers. for years they have bred for dogs that go to the next county before hunting. hard explosive tree dogs. yep they absolutly got it but while consintrating so much infasis on tree they lost track power for the most part.

look at the breeding for an all grand pedegree. think about this. if your breeding only for an all grand pedegree only. with out knowing the traits of all dogs on that pedegree & you get 2 or 3 different style dogs. how can you get a consistant litter of pups. then you lost what you got.

i dont care what anybody says the only way to consistantly keep what you got & build on it is line breeding. making out cross's only on dogs with pedegrees of dogs with your style. that have the same hunting style. not a certain dog but its off spring & absolutly stay as far away from lines that have something that is different in their style.

look at this. how many times do you go to a tree in hot weather a walker dog is standing on the tree smokin it & still freash. you got a black dog standing on the tree with his tongh hangin down to his knee's cookin. its not because that black dog is black. an excuss we like to use for them over heating. its in their breeding. most big boned heavey black dogs over heat because their size. lean leggy black dogs are less prone to over heating.

there is so much we got to look at breeding besides what ol so & so won. the question is. is ol so & so reproducing his or her self or better !! does my female have the same traits as what i'm breeding for.

goes back to i got a super female & i want to breed her to the best i can breed her to. what has that sire & his ancesters reproduced best with. what has my female & her ancesters reproduced best with & can it keep the same traits my dog has.

kentucky got smoked in the 1st round of the nit & i'm in a writing mood tonight to help me get over it !! LOL

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