UKC Forums - Strike Em All For 50

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-- Strike Em All For 50 (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928306585)

Posted by John D on 03-19-2013 02:58 PM:

I don't think alot of hunters have ever hunted with a good strike dog. One that hunts hard, but doesn't bee-line out of the country, opens the second it smells a coon, opens ONLY when it smells a coon. Its not a common trait, anymore.

The hunts have evolved to either babblers or at least dogs that open out of place here or there, or dogs that keep their mouths shut so they can sneak off to find an easy coon to bush.

quote:
Originally posted by jdc
John,
How about we only strike them for 50 if a dog is opening when the minute expires. Then maybe people would start breaking them from barking from tail gate to tree. If all strike after minute it can be business as usual. I am wondering what holes people see in this method?

I think this idea has some merit and I proposed this to the rules committee a few years ago. The only difference was I said that if they strike in the first 3 minutes of any turnout, they get the same strike points. Of course that went over well....

Think about it, if you are going to reward a dog for striking a coon, one that strikes CLOSE doesn't deserve as much. It was an easier coon to strike. If dogs get out there and hunt and then strike, they deserve more so give them a full set of strike points. Casts with honest dogs have a chance of scoring more. That right there will get handlers and breeders to work for a more honest strike dog. It might even get them to turn loose back further from where they might strike, in order to get more points. I can't see a flaw in it.

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Posted by StrawberryMt on 03-19-2013 05:20 PM:

" Think about it, if you are going to reward a dog for striking a coon, one that strikes CLOSE doesn't deserve as much. It was an easier coon to strike. If dogs get out there and hunt and then strike, they deserve more so give them a full set of strike points. Casts with honest dogs have a chance of scoring more. That right there will get handlers and breeders to work for a more honest strike dog. It might even get them to turn loose back further from where they might strike, in order to get more points. I can't see a flaw in it." Quote from John D

John seriously? Penalize a dog for treeing an easy one?As I get older I say lets minus the one that gets a coon treed behind him. Maybe then guys would start having dogs that truthfully tree coons as they come instead of shocking them for being around another dog. Personally I think "deep and lonely " developed out of handlers that couldn't take the heat from a good ole barn burner of a calling contest or they were hunting slow track dogs.Same can be said of the babbling.

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Posted by mark10 on 03-20-2013 01:08 AM:

Rules are Rules some like them some dont, thats life and like all rules they will be amended , everyone has an idea of what should be a great set of rules. Dogs that as we say are honest will win their share and the not o honest will win theirs thats the facts and no matter the rules thats how it will be always...

Posted by Jackson87 on 03-20-2013 01:30 AM:

They will always have an,excuse travis.My female trees alot of coons behind other dogs.They will say that there dog didnt go through there or just not say anything cause they know they got a hot nosed dog.They have breed all the nose outta dogs its no wonder they go so deep.There lookin for a pop up.jmo

Posted by otown on 03-20-2013 04:41 AM:

How about something like , leave the strike rules the same but add a time to it . like all dogs struck within 1 mnute 30 seconds all recieve 25 points or 1 minute 15 seconds, and if no dogs are struck after 1 min. 30 or 15 seconds then stike points are 100 , 75 , 50 , 25 . that way they still have to strike on or before 3rd bark after the min. Just food for thought . Maybe on a hot pop up it would even the score a little for the honest dog that dont strike right away and also get the babbler if they got to go hunting for a strike . could also deter the man thats dog is not a bad babbler but will pop off a few times from striking too soon when he knows there is a reward for it . Or just do away with the minute rule alltogether like it used to be and enforce the babbling rule. I hate drawing out with babblers too but ... we already have rules against them , judge the cast and minus or scratch them . If you have a babbler in the cast and the guys striking them take them to a open field where they got to go a ways to get to the woods , lead the cast in there 100 or more yard then walk back out and if no dogs barked cut them, if they strike them minus ,if dog never shuts up they are busted when they do strike. No track is definately evident .Never had too much discussion when I do that one

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Posted by John D on 03-20-2013 02:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by StrawberryMt
"
John seriously? Penalize a dog for treeing an easy one?As I get older I say lets minus the one that gets a coon treed behind him. Maybe then guys would start having dogs that truthfully tree coons as they come instead of shocking them for being around another dog. Personally I think "deep and lonely " developed out of handlers that couldn't take the heat from a good ole barn burner of a calling contest or they were hunting slow track dogs.Same can be said of the babbling.

I don't see where I said to penalize a dog for treeing an easy coon. A dog that strikes and trees quick (close) won't get as many points, but he will still have at least as many points than the dogs that go deep and get treed.

Lets say the rule is changed so that dogs that strike within 3 minutes all strike for 50.

Example. 4 dog cast. Dog A strikes off the leash, inside the 3 minutes. He goes in for 50 points. The other 3 dogs get in deeper, all open and are struck for 50, each. Dog A trees. Dogs B,C,D tree in deeper. Dog A has a coon. The other dogs are treed together and have a coon.

The scores:
Dog A: 175+
Dog B: 175+
Dog C: 125+
Dog D: 75+

Now if you think Dog A deserved 100 strike points for striking off the leash, we will have to disagree on that. What happens more often than not is that Dog A babbled and will NOT tree a coon close and will actually end up on the same tree as the others. In that case, he ESPECIALLY does not deserve 100 strike points.

Posted by Tim Toler on 03-20-2013 02:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John D

Now if you think Dog A deserved 100 strike points for striking off the leash, we will have to disagree on that. What happens more often than not is that Dog A babbled and will NOT tree a coon close and will actually end up on the same tree as the others. In that case, he ESPECIALLY does not deserve 100 strike points.

but what about the dog that opens off the leash takes the track out of there and is treed first and the dogs cover it... now did that dog just open off the leash? or actually strike a coon?

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Posted by ghost229 on 03-20-2013 02:44 PM:

I think once the first dog trees thats it for that tree. reward only the dog that finished the track and get rid of these ME TOO HOUNDS that everyone are tryn to sell now!!!!!!!!!

Posted by john Duemmer on 03-20-2013 08:38 PM:

Since i started this thread, it has generated alot of good ideas.
Weather or not UKC. finds it necessary to make a change at some point in the future remains to be seen.
Something that comes to mind aside from the fact that the coon treer in the cast would win more often is that strikeing for 50 would make a judges job much easier and the "slick handler" would play a smaller role in the outcome of the cast.
A few guys seem to feel that this change would hurt the honest strike dog, but i disagree, No one wants to punish the dog that hustles to find a track, but that dog is not getting the first strike against a loose mouth dog that will cover.
And then theres the group that feels no change is necessary because we already have a rule to stop the babblers that just needs to be enforced. IT DOESNT WORK, they have the minute, and can be pretty darn deep by the time that minute is up. If the nonhunting judges at the big hunts cant or wont enforce this rule the guy at his local club hunting against guys that he sees every weekend certainly isnt going to.

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Posted by englishbuddy on 03-20-2013 09:02 PM:

We had a good set of rules in place and have changed them thru the years to accommodate the babbling and automatic strike dogs ....... Be a man enforce what we got.... Break them babblers thru the week and send them home on the weekends .....

Posted by john Duemmer on 03-20-2013 09:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by englishbuddy
We had a good set of rules in place and have changed them thru the years to accommodate the babbling and automatic strike dogs ....... Be a man enforce what we got.... Break them babblers thru the week and send them home on the weekends .....

"Be a Man" If you dont mind me asking, how many hunts do you attend and how many dogs have you minused for Babbling?

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Posted by John D on 03-20-2013 09:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Toler
but what about the dog that opens off the leash takes the track out of there and is treed first and the dogs cover it... now did that dog just open off the leash? or actually strike a coon?

It doesn't really matter why he opened, he strikes in for 50.

Thats really been the problem with all babbling rules we've ever had. All babbling rules have failed because they have required the judge to determine whether the dog was opening on a track or not. Even if you got a good judge but 3 dogs are babbling, he's getting outvoted and it still didn't work.

With this rule, there is no judgement call. Did the dog(s) strike within 3 minutes (or whatever time period) or not? If they struck in before that time, they get 50 and nothing on that turnout gets struck in above them.

If they strike in AFTER the 3 minutes, they get the strike points as we have them now.

Posted by Jackson87 on 03-20-2013 10:05 PM:

I really hope ukc does something soon cause I know several guys that dont attend the hunts for this very reason.An automatic strike gets 100 for barkin out of excitment and its in the lead right outta the gate.Then the an honest strike dogs get 50 or 25 for findin a coon in a coon hunt?Kinda messed up system

Posted by englishbuddy on 03-20-2013 11:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
"Be a Man" If you dont mind me asking, how many hunts do you attend and how many dogs have you minused for Babbling?

It dont have to be just me John ..... We used to minus them all the time... Why is it so hard to enforce the rules we have ??? The automatic dog is no different than someone pitchin their dog on strike or tree... He is stealin.. Then when a dog falls struck an treed 2 or 3 times a night then everyone wants to scratch him..... and how is a deep and alone dog working as part of the cast ?????? If he is alone everytime to me he is a nonparticipating dog ...... We have rules enforce em .....

Posted by Tom Jones on 03-21-2013 12:32 AM:

hmmmm

dog carries 1st strike all night but never got a first tree? Anyhow if everyone whines about babblers why do alot of people wwant silent? I'll just take an old coondog and i guess if it means that much to the cheater then they can scratch me for stirrin up trouble. I have and will minus a dog for babblin. They can vote or put a ? Mark by it

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Posted by patches9452 on 03-21-2013 12:30 PM:

sounds like to many people hunting weak strike dogs on here and wanting to change the rules to fit them.... if they babble minus them... just because a dog barks off the leash does not make it a babbler tho and some need to know the difference... tight mouth always alone hates a quick strike dog and almost always calls them babblers

Posted by Blacklabel on 03-21-2013 01:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by englishbuddy
[B] how is a deep and alone dog working as part of the cast ?????? If he is alone everytime to me he is a nonparticipating dog ...... We have rules enforce em .....

I have never heard that before.

Deep and alone is usually always under a coon. Why pack up and catch minus? I owned a gyp who would split 10 ft if she could or be 1/2 mi the other way, she stayed out of trouble that way and usually always under a coon. I'll take 100 more just like her.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 07-29-2013 08:55 PM:

Btt.

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Posted by perry co cooner on 07-29-2013 11:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John D
I don't see where I said to penalize a dog for treeing an easy coon. A dog that strikes and trees quick (close) won't get as many points, but he will still have at least as many points than the dogs that go deep and get treed.

Lets say the rule is changed so that dogs that strike within 3 minutes all strike for 50.

Example. 4 dog cast. Dog A strikes off the leash, inside the 3 minutes. He goes in for 50 points. The other 3 dogs get in deeper, all open and are struck for 50, each. Dog A trees. Dogs B,C,D tree in deeper. Dog A has a coon. The other dogs are treed together and have a coon.

The scores:
Dog A: 175+
Dog B: 175+
Dog C: 125+
Dog D: 75+

Now if you think Dog A deserved 100 strike points for striking off the leash, we will have to disagree on that. What happens more often than not is that Dog A babbled and will NOT tree a coon close and will actually end up on the same tree as the others. In that case, he ESPECIALLY does not deserve 100 strike points.

Am I the only one that thinks this is craziness??? All this will create is dogs that blow out of the country before they start hunting (they will be trained that way of course).

Not matter what rules are changed there will always be guys that find away to make them work in their favor even if it does hurt their dog in the long run. As long as they win that's all that matters.

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Posted by perry co cooner on 07-29-2013 11:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by englishbuddy
It dont have to be just me John ..... We used to minus them all the time... Why is it so hard to enforce the rules we have ??? The automatic dog is no different than someone pitchin their dog on strike or tree... He is stealin.. Then when a dog falls struck an treed 2 or 3 times a night then everyone wants to scratch him..... and how is a deep and alone dog working as part of the cast ?????? If he is alone everytime to me he is a nonparticipating dog ...... We have rules enforce em .....

Wait, wait, wait..........I thought we all want independent dogs that are always alone?

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Posted by perry co cooner on 07-29-2013 11:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
sounds like to many people hunting weak strike dogs on here and wanting to change the rules to fit them.... if they babble minus them... just because a dog barks off the leash does not make it a babbler tho and some need to know the difference... tight mouth always alone hates a quick strike dog and almost always calls them babblers

Lol this is getting better and better......tell us what a babbler is please.

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Posted by josh on 07-30-2013 12:04 AM:

I don't know what the answere is but the strike point system is definitely flawed as it currently exists.

Having said that, I really doubt anyone is winning much without a whole lot of 125+ on the card.

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Posted by perry co cooner on 07-30-2013 12:40 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
I don't know what the answere is but the strike point system is definitely flawed as it currently exists.

Having said that, I really doubt anyone is winning much without a whole lot of 125+ on the card.

You're probably right but it probably makes a lot of hunts closer than they should be and lessens your room for error. I still think that no matter what the rules are people will find ways around them. There's cheating in every sport, football, baseball, car racing........it's just the nature of the beast I reckon.

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Posted by AndyMiller on 07-30-2013 03:32 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dogwhisper
Insane idea! I'll stick w/strike pts. as they R.
Enforce the babbling rule.It's about any judge haveing the kahunna's to do it,& if they cant tell the difference they ought not ta be judgeing.

AGREED 100% IF YOU USE THE RULES THR WUD B NO PROBLEM==AWARD TH POINTS AND MINUS = 2ND. OFFENSE SCRATCH

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Posted by AndyMiller on 07-30-2013 03:36 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
I like the way AKC has strike points set up. Similar to what is posted, however, honest first strike dogs are awarded too.

GOOD RULE==YOU STRIKE IN TH FIRST MIN. U HAVE 2 TREE THE FIRST MINUTE==OR U GET MINUS==

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