UKC Forums - A Breeding Experiment Explained

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 09-28-2012 08:42 PM:

Absolutely! Right or wrong, I'm sure I an find a way to blame it on his advice. LOL!

Dave

Posted by Larry Atherton on 09-28-2012 08:58 PM:

Now, Dave, you would first have to make sure you heard him right before you could blame him.

Joe,

Ya can send that $5.00 to .....

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Posted by Glenn Wells on 09-28-2012 08:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Doug Johnson
Dave, I've seen the "jealous tree issue" in several Bozo bred dogs and they don't have to be very heavy Bozo to express it.

Would say that is coming from Bozo's momma .... judged her on a cast one night, and that pretty much is what I saw. Seems she was Finley River bred, could be why it shows up when Bozo blood is limited but other FR dogs are there.... sort of a recessive gene that takes both sides to show it.

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-11-2012 10:15 PM:

Well... the experiment has arrived! 6 males and 3 females... all doing well.

I can already hear Joe... "the experiment has failed, just look how ugly they are!"

David Schmidt

Posted by Jackson87 on 10-16-2012 12:53 AM:

Good lookin pups there Dave.Sounds youve done all the research and know what direction you wanna go.Thats all you can do.Goodluck with them pups

Posted by Larry Atherton on 10-16-2012 03:21 PM:

Phenotypically, they don't take after their daddy's side.

It will be interesting to see how it all works out.

Best of luck , Dave.

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-16-2012 03:32 PM:

I know, Larry. There's one in the litter, that has very similar markings to Boom, but the other 7 are pretty ugly, aren't they?!? Of course, the mama was called "Too Much Color" for a reason.

I told Joe that I have a break through of Hybrid Clover dogs... Pretty and Smart. I guess we'll see.

Dave

Posted by Oak Ridge on 10-19-2012 10:45 PM:

Well...you gonna post some updated pictures or make us beg?????

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Joe Newlin
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Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-20-2012 01:48 AM:

Geez, that's kind of what it sounded like...

Seven Angus and one Holstein! The runt looks like his daddy.

Posted by Fisher13 on 10-24-2013 02:35 PM:

One of the best threads I've read on here. Thanks for the discussion guys.

Posted by Larry Atherton on 10-24-2013 03:39 PM:

Hey Dave,

Any exciting prospects?

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

Posted by Dwils on 10-24-2013 03:43 PM:

Dave , those are way too good looking to have Joes dogs in their line!

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-24-2013 04:19 PM:

Daniel - I would agree those are the "ugliest" pups, Boom has thrown!

Larry - well, unfortunately the two best prospects were mine and another one, over here in Wisconsin. The other one was hit in the owners drive, last winter, after a snow storm. The pup got out under the truck, and he couldn't stop on the ice. He was devastated! Mine had a similar fate, he had just got started this Summer, had been working a track in a corn field, when he got out by the truck. I called him, he dodged me, and got smacked by a car! My son was crushed.

BUT - there is one in South Carolina that has been treeing since he was 6-7 months old, and is looking really good the last I heard. And another one in Indiana, running and treeing. That one just got started in the woods, and ran and treed his first night out, with Boom's sister no less! He's a big leggy blanket-back (also looks nothing like he should) but is a voice twin to his daddy! I'll keep a close eye on him...

I lost track of 3 others, that I mistakenly trusted to a young man I had taken under my wing. So no news on them.

In the mean-time, the gentleman that was heart-broken over losing his pup, was so impressed with it, he brought a female over to breed to Boom. She has similar breeding to mine, on the bottom, but Bojangles on the top. This worked out unbeleiveably, as when my son's dog got hit, this guy's litter just got weaned and his wife was heading my way for the weekend. So I quickly replaced my son's pup and it is coming along great! He looks and sounds just like his daddy, was running and treeing a caged coon and drags at 5 months, and was opening on his first track, just last night, at 6 months.

I hope to go see that pup in Indiana, next month and maybe get some video of him and my pup, running and treeing together!

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-24-2013 11:03 PM:

I spoke with my friend in Indiana today, about that pup. He said, last night he made one slick, and one coon with the older dog, and on the third tree, split with a den!

I'd rather hear they were all coon, but with a split tree, that's pretty positive given it's only his second night out. He needed to be hunted for months, but it's hard to get a hide hunter out in the Summer!

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by brogy on 10-25-2013 12:17 AM:

Great thread. Interesting topic. I can't wait to comment more but using an iPhone stinks to try to comment in depth. Best of luck with your cross Dave.

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Posted by brogy on 10-25-2013 12:35 AM:

In my limited experience, breeding is a crap shoot at best. I've seen some of the most thought out, experienced breeders make crosses that should have been able reproduce a consistent product across the whole litter only to end up with a litter of pups that don't resemble in any way, looks or ability, to any of the ancestors in a 4-5 generation pedigree. I've seen some knuckleheads that have no business breeding dogs be able to reproduce a litter of dynamite pups. Sometimes results go against all breeding logic.

More later when I have more time to comment....

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Posted by Fisher13 on 10-25-2013 02:38 AM:

Aren't those the reason people advocate line breeding predicable results?

Posted by brogy on 10-25-2013 03:16 AM:

You're probably right, but even with tight line breeding you can get surprised at times.

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 10-25-2013 05:00 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by brogy
You're probably right, but even with tight line breeding you can get surprised at times.

Now Marc, that depends on your definition of "surprise".

I've been at this a little while, and am working on my umpteenth generation of the dogs I hunt....so I can reach back and recognize dogs a little further back in the pedigree easier than most folks.

When you birthed, owned, trained, and hunted great-grandma....it makes it a little easier to see great-grandma in a pup.

Most folks are not set up to put the time and money into raising a family of dogs over tens of years, so they don't identify those "surprises" as a trait from three or more generations back....

I've said it several times, and will say it again...until you have hunted with or owned every dog in a pups three generation pedigree....you really don't know what you have or what is possible when you breed that dog.

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Posted by brogy on 10-25-2013 06:50 AM:

Joe, I can recall some conversations with you we're you mentioned just a few of your breeding requirements and I believe one of those was that you preferred a bawl mouthed dog. Yet Cube had a chop mouthed litter mate sister. I've only hunted with a couple if dogs from your stock, but one the strongest traits they had in common was that Joker bawl mouth. Just as an example, if I were to get a pup from you knowing what know about your preferences, breeding philosophy, and experience with the couple Joker dogs I hunted with, and ended up with a chop mouthed dog I would be a bit surprised. I could use one of my own dogs as an example as well. I personally haven't hunted with her entire 3 generation but hunted with 2 of her 3 litter mates, a few 1/2 siblings, her momma, her grandsire and her top side I knew little about other than she was linebred on Bozo with a shot of Nailor on top. Everything I had heard about regarding her top side was that they all had big mouths. Now most her bottom side were silent to nearly silent type hounds with above average mouths, yet she herself was extremely mouthy with a poor squeaky yodeling chop mouth. To me that was a bit of a surprise, only to be contributed to a throwback somewhere but probably not within 3 generations.

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 10-25-2013 07:29 AM:

Brogy it was a HALF sister to Cube that was chop mouthed, her mother was out of Stylish Oz, whom I hunted with and he was a bawl mouth track dog, and a short bawl tree dog. Ruby, the females mother was a bawl mouth track dog, and a machine gun chop mouthed dog. However, Ruby's mother was chop on the ground and chop on the tree....

No surprise there! Yes, I was hoping that Joker's influence would ring true, and I would not have any chop mouth dogs born at my place...but I did...and I know exactly which grand parent to "blame".

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Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by brogy on 10-25-2013 07:51 AM:

I stand corrected, but I think you get the jest of what I'm trying to say. Like many folks, I've found a line of dogs I like and when it comes to breeding I like to stack the odds in my favor using as many of the same "ingredients" as I can, but even then a throwback can show up from somewhere or overlooking one particular dog in the pedigree hoping that you've stacked enough of the deck to not get pups that resemble it doesn't always work. That said, most folks that raise a litter, myself included, are not equipped with enough first hand knowledge of an entire 5 generation pedigree including all their litter mates to ensure your litter is going to produce the consistent results we hope for. All you can do is try and hope for the best. My last couple litters raised here appear to have been successful as far as being able to tree coon but are results consistent from pup to pup, absolutely not and I'm okay with that.

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-25-2013 02:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher13
Aren't those the reason people advocate line breeding predicable results?

Perhaps, although Marc and Joe just debated that philosophy! But again, the reason for this "outcross" was to not get predictable results, but be "surprised" by something truly exceptional!

If you want a dog just like mommy or daddy, or both, then line-breed. But if mommy and daddy don't make you completley happy every night of the week, and on the weekend, then you're going to have to look elsewhere. And that will absolutely lead to some surprises, but hopefully some good ones!

And with regards to Marc and Joe's discussion, and I realize I'm on shaky ground with my elementary understanding of genetics, but I think a lot of that comes down to dominant and recessive traits, right? I've got three litters out of Boom, one pretty heavy line-bred and two pretty much an outcross, depending on how you do the math. And as discussed here, I was "surprised" by all the color in one of those litters (although to Joe's point not so surprising given the mother), BUT the vast majority of all those pups, from all three litters have that over-powering loud bawl mouth of their daddy and granddaddy (Joker).

So, as an example of just one trait (I know there's a lot more to consider), if you want over-powering, loud bawl mouths, do you have to line-breed to not be "surprised" or simply breed to stud that is a dominant reproducer of loud, bawl mouths? The one trait of the momma to the litter, in question, that Joe absolutely despised, was her chop on track. But none of the pups I've heard of, chop on track. They in fact are very loud bawl mouths!

Prime example... that 6 month old pup I'm starting, is out of a momma that doesn't have Clover anywhere in her pedigree. But I actually thought all that racket last night, in the cornfield, was all Boom. Until I checked the Garmin and realized that half of it was that pup! And he has a litter mate across the state, that was out last night working a track all by herself. So big loud mouths, like their daddy, independent, just like their daddy, and a whole lot of potential to be something better than him!

Now... if mommy or daddy don't have a whole lot going for them, then don't breed them period! But if they have 70-80% of the ingredients you're looking for, then throw them into the bowl, don't start from scratch!

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Posted by warn on 10-25-2013 09:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
Brogy it was a HALF sister to Cube that was chop mouthed, her mother was out of Stylish Oz, whom I hunted with and he was a bawl mouth track dog, and a short bawl tree dog. Ruby, the females mother was a bawl mouth track dog, and a machine gun chop mouthed dog. However, Ruby's mother was chop on the ground and chop on the tree....

No surprise there! Yes, I was hoping that Joker's influence would ring true, and I would not have any chop mouth dogs born at my place...but I did...and I know exactly which grand parent to "blame".

TOO BLAME!!!!!!!!!!!! Isn't that a harsh way to put it Joe. She was as much a coondog as anyone could ask for even if she was a chop mouth dog. You bawl mouth folks but way to much stock into a bawl mouth dog. That is no different than me prefering blanket back red heads that you scoff about............................

not to mention you have been trying to get me to bring a female down to breed for years.............. and you know all my stuff or crap goes back to that worthless chop mouth dog

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-25-2013 10:04 PM:

UhOh... you guys should take this fight the the "Coffee Shop" where we've had this brawl before!

The momma of the litter in question is a big beautiful blanket back female, who has treed her own coon since she was 6 months old, and has been split treeing since she was 8 months old. And the only "fault" anyone could have with her, is her chop mouth on track, although as she gets older she know throws a squall in there from time to time. That's it, she's otherwise a very respectable coon dog!

But I'm with you Mark, I see chop mouths on track as a "cosmetic" trait, just as you said, no different than the amount or type of color. Now silent is different... that's functional. If I don't know what the dog is up to, or where it is unless I check the Garmin, or if I can't sit and enjoy a hot race, then that impacts the functional enjoyment of the hunt. Chop versus bawl??? Well I would more enjoy a bawl, with a clear change-up on tree, but I can enjoy a chop too.

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