UKC Forums - Judge this??

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Posted by D.Boyd on 09-27-2012 05:01 AM:

Like I said one had to be ran down and caught. Minus anyway u look at it. Also where is this rule that I've never seen " under the canopy of the tree". I hear a lot of UKC hunters use this but I've never read this before.

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Posted by southernthunder on 09-27-2012 05:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by D.Boyd
Like I said one had to be ran down and caught. Minus anyway u look at it. Also where is this rule that I've never seen " under the canopy of the tree". I hear a lot of UKC hunters use this but I've never read this before.

don't worry there is no such thing as a canopy! all they have to do is show tree. i had a guy try to minus me one night because my dog was treeing out on the edge of the tree. he was looking straight up treeing and that is where we found the coon was right above him. common sense goes along way, but not everyone uses it. way to many rule benders in the sport now days.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 09-27-2012 10:16 AM:

The main thing that is being missed is that this is not a scoring situation. When the rule states no points will be awarded then it can not be scored period. Delete is the only way it can be handled. Once the tree is seen to be a previously scored tree then the tree points are deleted right then. The eight should then be put on the other two. If they come back to the tree strike is deleted. The ones that left should not have been handled until the eight got them. Running one done 75 yards away was stupid on the handlers part. He should have been scratched if his dog was still holding strike points and time was still in. Sounds like the judge and cast members really created a mess.

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Posted by stillwater farm on 09-27-2012 04:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
You need to read rule 5(e). The dogs DO NOT have to be treed when they return to a previously scored tree. They can be handled and recast without being treed. I don't know if these dogs were declared treed or not but it doesn't matter because the first sentence in the rule says no points, that means no plus. no minus and no circle, can be awarded when a dog returns to a previously scored tree.

Jim,I never said you had to tree the dog on a dead tree but once the dog was declared treed,it must stay the five regardless of where they're at.....hole,barn,same tree,it don't matter.Once you declare a dog treed,you start the five and it's gotta stay,be handled,and scored.JMO

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT'S JUST POOR HANDLING.

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Posted by JiM on 09-27-2012 04:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by stillwater farm
Once you declare a dog treed,you start the five and it's gotta stay,be handled,and scored.JMO

Well all of that is irrelevant when they are on a previously scored tree because regardless of anything else, they have no points to minus.

I think this is one situation (previously scored trees) where PKC has the better rule.

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Posted by joey on 09-27-2012 05:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Well all of that is irrelevant when they are on a previously scored tree because regardless of anything else, they have no points to minus.

I think this is one situation (previously scored trees) where PKC has the better rule.

You cant declare a dog treed and it be handled somewhere other than were it was declared. Your not scoring the tree. Th.ey have been called treed and they have to stay.

When Allen was asked about the dogs that were called treed and found in a trap he said that once a dog is called treed it is responsible for those points. Since they not handled on the tree They were called on they are minused. They would have to have been handled on the tree before the points could be deleted.

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Posted by turman on 09-27-2012 05:36 PM:

We got to go by what this thread said and he said after they treed they decided they had went back. As soon as the cast decided the dogs had went back it was a dead tree. Unless when they got to the tree the dogs were on another tree then they would have to back out and wait the five.

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Posted by englishbuddy on 09-27-2012 05:47 PM:

A dead tree is a dead tree is really kinda simple to score !!!!!!

IT'S A DEAD TREE !!!!! Handle dogs and recast or call time out an move..... If you cant plus it you cant minus it either !!!!!

Posted by Richard Lambert on 09-27-2012 05:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey

When Allen was asked about the dogs that were called treed and found in a trap he said that once a dog is called treed it is responsible for those points.

Yes, but when it is a "previously scored tree" then there are no points to be respnsible for. As has been stated several times, "like or not", UKC says that if you can not plus them or circle them then you can not minus them. Also, if the judge tells me to handle my dog, then I am going to run him down and handle him. I was on a cast one time where the dogs caught a coon on the ground and killed it. when we got there my dog was the only one there. The 3 other handlers ran their dogs down and caught them. One of them was 150 yds away. They plussed all 4 strike points. I questioned it and was outvoted and over ruled by the MOH.

Posted by stillwater farm on 09-27-2012 05:55 PM:

How is it a dead tree?They have to be handled first to determine what the tree is.Once a handler declares a dog treed,they gotta stay and be handled.JMO.

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Posted by stillwater farm on 09-27-2012 05:58 PM:

I don't think it has anything to do with it being a dead tree myself.They are responsible for the tree call and need to be scored accordingly.

No different then treeing one running low down,you're responsible for that call as a handler.

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Posted by JiM on 09-27-2012 05:59 PM:

No they don't. The rule clearly states the cast can agree the dogs are at a previously scored tree without treeing or first handling those dogs and according to what was stated on the first post, that was what happened here.

Posted by stillwater farm on 09-27-2012 06:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
No they don't. The rule clearly states the cast can agree the dogs are at a previously scored tree without treeing or first handling those dogs and according to what was stated on the first post, that was what happened here.

Yes they can Jim but they didn't,They all treed them and are now responsible for those tree calls is how I see it,been wrong before though.

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Posted by englishbuddy on 09-27-2012 06:20 PM:

So if they are responsible for the tree call you gonna plus them if they are on a once scored tree ????? I dont think so.. Once the cast saw it was the same tree catch your dogs , deleate your points and recast...... simple ..

Posted by stillwater farm on 09-27-2012 06:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by englishbuddy
So if they are responsible for the tree call you gonna plus them if they are on a once scored tree ????? I dont think so.. Once the cast saw it was the same tree catch your dogs , deleate your points and recast...... simple ..

No,you handle them......They need to be handled where they were treed at.Then at that point you determine them on the same tree.If they leave first then they'ye minused for leaving a tree.JMO

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Posted by englishbuddy on 09-27-2012 06:28 PM:

The man done said it was the same tree ..... Already scored dead tree.. handle dog, deleate points and recast....

Posted by southernthunder on 09-27-2012 06:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by englishbuddy
The man done said it was the same tree ..... Already scored dead tree.. handle dog, deleate points and recast....

if those dogs were still running then their strike is still good, therefore you can't handle a dog still carrying strike. catch 22 lol i'm waiting for ukc to call me back with the answer. when they do i will post it.

Posted by joey on 09-27-2012 06:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by englishbuddy
The man done said it was the same tree ..... Already scored dead tree.. handle dog, deleate points and recast....

Thats just it they left the tree. He said one of them had to be run down and they had been called treed. I guess Allen will have to weigh in on this one.

Posted by stillwater farm on 09-27-2012 06:44 PM:

You can't score a tree until dogs are handled.You can't shine a tree across water with dogs not handled.You can't shine a tree while walking into it until they're handled.Two left before they were handled and are resonsible for the TREE CALL......I think they get minused???

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Posted by GA DAWG on 09-27-2012 06:57 PM:

ALLEN? This has went on long enough.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 09-27-2012 07:21 PM:

The 2 that left shouldnt have been handled, they would be accountable for their strike points, either they will return and be deleted or caught by the 8 or get treed somewhere else. The only thing that matters here is that they were seen treed on a previously scored tree so those tree points must be deleted.

After rereading the original post this seems to be a case of the judge doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

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Posted by englishbuddy on 09-27-2012 07:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
The 2 that left shouldnt have been handled, they would be accountable for their strike points, either they will return and be deleted or caught by the 8 or get treed somewhere else. The only thing that matters here is that they were seen treed on a previously scored tree so those tree points must be deleted.

Call time out get cast back together ......

Posted by john Duemmer on 09-27-2012 07:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by englishbuddy
Call time out get cast back together ......

Ya cant call timeout with 2 dogs carrying strike points. Atleast not if one of them is mine Lol.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 09-27-2012 08:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
The main thing that is being missed is that this is not a scoring situation. When the rule states no points will be awarded then it can not be scored period. Delete is the only way it can be handled. Once the tree is seen to be a previously scored tree then the tree points are deleted right then. The eight should then be put on the other two. If they come back to the tree strike is deleted. The ones that left should not have been handled until the eight got them. Running one done 75 yards away was stupid on the handlers part. He should have been scratched if his dog was still holding strike points and time was still in. Sounds like the judge and cast members really created a mess.

This is how the situation should have been handled. Just like John, Jim, and several others have said. Also the dogs holding strike points can not be handled just because the judge says he wants you to. And hopefully we all understand the rules for calling timeout which in my my opinion is abused more than any other rule.

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Posted by englishbuddy on 09-27-2012 08:31 PM:

How can you let 2 dogs carry strike points that were struck in and treed and seen on the dead tree but if they come back in deleate them ????? The dog that stayed may have been struck in for 100 and if the 1 of or both of the other 2 open turn dog 3 in for 25 ,,,,,,,, Call time out get cast back together and recast......

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