UKC Forums - I think the ukc RULES are screwed up on the ZONES

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- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- I think the ukc RULES are screwed up on the ZONES (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928270727)

Posted by Judd Johnson on 09-17-2012 02:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BIG HAROLD
That isn't the only oops in that stack of cards.

I think I know what you mean by that

Posted by Tim Toler on 09-17-2012 03:03 PM:

but there still would've been a world champion crowned just maybe not the dog that was crowned...

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Posted by John D on 09-17-2012 03:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Moore
I know, but I guess its a hard pill to swallow for some guys when they post a cast win with 200+ one night & have plus points the other night and they don't advance to the finals but another dog advances with 200+ CW one night and had big minus points the other night and gets to the dance.

Exactly. I think it boils down to which dog is the better dog? They both win a cast 1 night. But the other night one of them looks decent and comes in with plus points and the other comes in with a bunch of minus. There's no doubt in my mind which one is the better dog.

They look at both nights' scores to place double cast winners, so why completely disregard that other night's score for single cast winners?

If a dog doesn't complete the hunt one night, then he's DQ'd. So, the other night has some impact, the way it is.

The zones are like no other hunt so the tiebreaker rules on the back of the card may not be the best way to handle this.

Nobody needs to tell me how the rules currently are. I am 100% up on that. I'm just thinking there is an opportunity to improve the system and advance the 100 best dogs here.

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Posted by BIG HAROLD on 09-17-2012 03:42 PM:

Yeah Judd, it was said that a CW Friday night got scratched Saturday night, but wasn't added up correct. There was 2 questions on the card.

Posted by BIG HAROLD on 09-17-2012 03:44 PM:

John D, bout the time you think your up to par on the rules, ask 3 MOH's a question, I bet you get 3a different answers

Posted by Tim MACHA on 09-17-2012 03:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Toler
I have a question about the zones then... Since only the cast wins matter... (and trust me I understand UKC rules to the fullest).. but with the case at hand why does someone HAVE to hunt both nights?? If you score a high CW on Friday and you feel that it is good enough to get you in and you feel that there will not be that many double CWers why should you have to hunt the other night then if that night means nothing unless it is a CW??

One reason is that you have two nights to stay out of a dog fight or treeing off game. At the zones, there are a few aggressive behavior scratches, but very, very few at the finals. Cream rises to the top.

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Posted by Judd Johnson on 09-17-2012 03:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BIG HAROLD
John D, bout the time you think your up to par on the rules, ask 3 MOH's a question, I bet you get 3a different answers

I believe you there

Posted by down and out on 09-17-2012 03:54 PM:

I don't know why both casts can't be ran in the same night. Why drag it out.

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Posted by Tim Toler on 09-17-2012 03:55 PM:

"They look at both nights' scores to place double cast winners, so why completely disregard that other night's score for single cast winners?"

John,

I agree with you, about both nights.

totally understand and agree that any dog that wins their cast both nights should be ahead of the pack, but with the system that is in place now and using the single cast winners, the other night should have to way in some how. Why not say double cast winners advance automatically, then single cast winners with the highest score of both nights combined advances if need be. Now you have a dog that has a cast win with lets say +300 and a CW one night but had -150 the other night he has a combined score of +150. Another dog has +300 and a CW one night then say 0 zero the second night for a combined score of +300 now you are making both nights mean something, but I know that my opinion isn't worth much except my opinion.

Good Luck to all that made it in though!!!!

Posted by John D on 09-17-2012 04:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BIG HAROLD
John D, bout the time you think your up to par on the rules, ask 3 MOH's a question, I bet you get 3a different answers

Thats right. If you have a serious rule question, don't go to a MOH, lol.

Go to UKC. You may or may not agree with their position, but its the one that counts in the end.

I'm not sure if adding nights together is the way to go but just looks to me like the inconsistent dog comes out over the consistent dog the way it is.

Posted by H. L. Meyer on 09-17-2012 04:21 PM:

MY GO%^^&

READ the rules understand the rules!!!!!!!!!!!! THEN GO PLAY BY THE RULES OR " STAY HOME " now that ain't hard. And yes I have been to the big SHOW and understood how the game was plaid . MY goodness it ain't hard to understand thei situation has been explained over and over put on your BIG BOY BRITCHES say congratulations to those that moved on and forget it it is HISTORY NOW. H L MEYER

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Posted by englishbuddy on 09-17-2012 04:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Toler
I am not saying that I don't understand I am questioning the rule of it being mandatory to hunt both nights... and if it is in place just to make sure you don't get scratched then make it that the only way to get through is to have double cast wins... then that takes care of the questions... but then again I am sure that they need so many dogs to be at the world to make it feasable financially...

You have to get thru both nights without being SCRATCHED OR MINUS OUT !!!!!!!!

Posted by patches9452 on 09-17-2012 04:49 PM:

Re: MY GO%^^&

quote:
Originally posted by H. L. Meyer
READ the rules understand the rules!!!!!!!!!!!! THEN GO PLAY BY THE RULES OR " STAY HOME " now that ain't hard. And yes I have been to the big SHOW and understood how the game was plaid . MY goodness it ain't hard to understand thei situation has been explained over and over put on your BIG BOY BRITCHES say congratulations to those that moved on and forget it it is HISTORY NOW. H L MEYER

this is my first post on this and i know the rules and procedures to get there also.... i also think in a tie breaker the first should be the other nights hunt.... i disagree with a dog having the same score and having 25 more tree points but the night before had a couple hundred minus and no plus and the dog it just beat out had a couple hundred plus just didnt win its cast.... just my thoughts... if i was looking for a dog i know which one i would be more interested in

Posted by englishbuddy on 09-17-2012 04:52 PM:

A loss is a loss !!!!!

Posted by Tyler Vaden on 09-17-2012 05:05 PM:

Guys you want say stuff like your at the mercy of the guides. Then say both nights should count. Ok look at this what if you where in ROCK BOTTOM SWEAT IT cast both nights you had 950+ and 875+. Do you guys want them to use that to knock out all the dogs that don't have more then 1825+ over 2 night. No you don't.

quote:
Originally posted by englishbuddy
A loss is a loss !!!!!

975+ CW 2 900+ CW 1 GRNITECH'PR'ROCK BOTTOM SWEAT IT TW M CURT AHRING MONROE MO

Posted by patches9452 on 09-17-2012 05:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by englishbuddy
A loss is a loss !!!!!

it is but some losses should be accoutable for.... minus point losses are bad in my book... maybe not in anyone elses... it want stop me from hunting in them at all just think these guys pitching thier dogs when they are looseing at the end of the hunt should have to be accountable for them instead of it not counting against them....

Posted by englishbuddy on 09-17-2012 05:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
it is but some losses should be accoutable for.... minus point losses are bad in my book... maybe not in anyone elses... it want stop me from hunting in them at all just think these guys pitching thier dogs when they are looseing at the end of the hunt should have to be accountable for them instead of it not counting against them....

But PKC minus point cast wins are ok !!!!!! It is realy simple .....
If you dont win your cast it does not count , does not hurt you !!!

Posted by patches9452 on 09-17-2012 05:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by englishbuddy
But PKC minus point cast wins are ok !!!!!! It is realy simple .....
If you dont win your cast it does not count , does not hurt you !!!

i understand all that.... just think it sucks

Posted by Tyler Vaden on 09-17-2012 05:22 PM:

Minus point. You guys actted like you know where all these minus points came from like you where on every cast. Guess at where minus points came from is just a guess. The handler that took 175- may could have set back and + points at the end of the cast if he want but I would say he was trying to win his cast. Guys when I'm down I go for the win not less minus cause onece aging there is no 2nd in a cast. If I'm behind with +125 and the leader has +200. If my dog is locateing or 1/2 way sounding like it is almost treed I'm treeing one and I'm hopeing it stay. I never knew there where guys setting back going for 2nd with + points in a cast, cause when I have the lead around here there piching there dogs and treeing them in before there treed. I would rather gambling amd win or lose my cast then lay back and have a + points second. I have won cast gambling when I'm down never won a cast from behind by not going for it.

Posted by englishbuddy on 09-17-2012 05:27 PM:

I just dont see your thought of getting beat in a cast and that score be good !!!!! I mean UKC says double cast winners with plus points advance 1st, the high score single night cast winners with plus point next !!!!!! YOUR LOSS COUNTS AS NOTHING !! SIMPLE RULE EASY TO FOLLOW

Posted by patches9452 on 09-17-2012 05:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tyler Vaden
Minus point. You guys actted like you know where all these minus points came from like you where on every cast. Guess at where minus points came from is just a guess. The handle that took 175- may could have set back and + points at the end of the cast if he want but I would say he was trying to win his cast. Guys when I'm down I go for the win not less minus cause onece aging there is no 2nd in a cast. If I'm behind with +125 and the leader has +200. If my dog is locateing or 1/2 way sounding like it is almost treed I'm treeing one and I'm hopeing it stay. I never knew there where guys setting back going for 2nd with + points in a cast, cause when I have the lead around here there piching there dogs and treeing them in before there treed. I would rather gambling amd win or lose my cast then lay back and have a + points second. I have won cast gambling when I'm down never won a cast from behind by not going for it.

either you are judgeing or drawing week judges cause pitching is cheating the way i see it.... they are either treed or not... no in between.... sure you can get away with it sometimes but that doesnt make it right....

Posted by patches9452 on 09-17-2012 05:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by englishbuddy
I just dont see your thought of getting beat in a cast and that score be good !!!!! I mean UKC says double cast winners with plus points advance 1st, the high score single night cast winners with plus point next !!!!!! YOUR LOSS COUNTS AS NOTHING !! SIMPLE RULE EASY TO FOLLOW

and i agree with all that.... where my disagreement comes in is on a tie single cast win in a hunt you have to complete 2 nights of

Posted by englishbuddy on 09-17-2012 05:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
and i agree with all that.... where my disagreement comes in is on a tie single cast win in a hunt you have to complete 2 nights of

You have to hunt both night and keep from minusing out or being scratched for what ever reason .... Tie breakers are just like at your local club ...... Least minus, most plus trre points ect.... There are RULES IN PLACE FOR TIES !!!!! RULES ARE RULES FOR EVERYONE AND UKC IS DOIN A PRETTY GOOD JOB

Posted by Tyler Vaden on 09-17-2012 06:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
either you are judgeing or drawing week judges cause pitching is cheating the way i see it.... they are either treed or not... no in between.... sure you can get away with it sometimes but that doesnt make it right....

You are 100% right this is where minus points come from, but sure you can get away with it sometimes but that doesnt make it right.

Posted by Tim Toler on 09-17-2012 06:25 PM:

Just to clarify something... I understand the rule to advance... just saying/asking if or how it could be updated or improved upon.

All the dogs that made it through are very deserving of it and I wish them the best of luck.

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