UKC Forums - Yet another "how to score"?

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-- Yet another "how to score"? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=507997)

Posted by patches9452 on 06-12-2012 06:24 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by truly
4. Points will be minus:
[f] After a dog is declared treed, at least one of the dogs declared treed must bark at least once every two minutes UNTIL CAST ARRIVES AT THE TREE, or be minused. If no dog barks in two minutes, tree declared open.

The cast has not arrived at the tree until the whole cast has arrived. It does not say "until handler arrives" or "until dog is handled at tree".

6. Dogs will be scratched:
[j] For delaying completion of cast for one hour after time out is called in accordance with Rule 8.
8. Timeouts:
[i]Time out may be called to go from one split to another if all dogs are declared treed and more than fifteen minutes is required to travel between trees....

Sorry gang, unless I see otherwise from UKC, if I am judging and only a cast member, not the whole cast or enough of it to score the tree, has arrived at the tree, I will run a two.
And unless UKC states otherwise, if we are on timeout between scoring trees, and we can not hear a dog that we should be able to hear, I will ask for the hour to be started after the two is up.

it looks good the way you have it set up there but dont think it will hold much water.... bark every 2 minutes until cast arrives at which tree.... once tree is closed and dog is handeled it dont ever have to bark again.... how are you gonna start the hour on a timeout called on a tree when you have no way of letting all the cast members know where the meet up spot is.... in fact that has to be done at the point timeout is called and at that point you probably dont realize you have a problem....

Posted by curtis hansley on 06-12-2012 06:44 AM:

solve this problem

If the judge is doing his job he should keep cast together score 1 tree and head to the next ,and there want be any question.

Posted by groworg1 on 06-12-2012 12:15 PM:

as i stated dead cast it will only take it happening a few times at the big level and these independent non pack dogs will be gone ! and if we start scratching the silent dogs they'll be gone too instead of changing the rules to fit these type of dogs lets get back to where this sport started open trail pack hounds instead of the dogs of today

Posted by WEBBER on 06-12-2012 01:41 PM:

I was thinking this was covered on here before. If I recall correctly it was ruled this way.

2 minute rule not applied.
Call timeout per 15 minute split tree rule.
Handler/cast has 1 hour to find his treed dog.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-12-2012 05:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
as i stated dead cast it will only take it happening a few times at the big level and these independent non pack dogs will be gone ! and if we start scratching the silent dogs they'll be gone too instead of changing the rules to fit these type of dogs lets get back to where this sport started open trail pack hounds instead of the dogs of today

Lol LOl Lol

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Posted by groworg1 on 06-12-2012 06:44 PM:

hoserman i started coonhunting before you were sucking your thumb and your post say it all !

Posted by john Duemmer on 06-12-2012 06:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by truly
4. Points will be minus:
[f] After a dog is declared treed, at least one of the dogs declared treed must bark at least once every two minutes UNTIL CAST ARRIVES AT THE TREE, or be minused. If no dog barks in two minutes, tree declared open.

The cast has not arrived at the tree until the whole cast has arrived. It does not say "until handler arrives" or "until dog is handled at tree".

6. Dogs will be scratched:
[j] For delaying completion of cast for one hour after time out is called in accordance with Rule 8.
8. Timeouts:
[i]Time out may be called to go from one split to another if all dogs are declared treed and more than fifteen minutes is required to travel between trees....

Sorry gang, unless I see otherwise from UKC, if I am judging and only a cast member, not the whole cast or enough of it to score the tree, has arrived at the tree, I will run a two.
And unless UKC states otherwise, if we are on timeout between scoring trees, and we can not hear a dog that we should be able to hear, I will ask for the hour to be started after the two is up.

If you think it would be correct to run the 2 in this situation you should probably decline the next time you are asked to judge. The sportsmanlike thing to do is find the dog and handler reguardless of its effect on the outcome of the cast. Dead casts happen sometimes, theres another hunt next week. Leaving a hunter or dog sitting in the woods so you can win a cast is just wrong no matter how ya spin it.

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Posted by runnin rebels on 06-12-2012 07:53 PM:

Re: here is a cast burner

quote:
Originally posted by runnin rebels
I always train my dog to hush when tied, I don't like loosing my hearing while I shine...save the dog's energy... nuisance to the homeowner sleeping... whatever.

Now I got an independant dog and when I tie him and I return to shine the others tree I have no Idea where he is.

Sorry guys come on and lets look for my dog while we burn the hunt time and miss deadline.

YEAH feel sorry for me and miss your deadline so you can assist me.

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Posted by curtis hansley on 06-12-2012 10:09 PM:

Re: here is a cast burner

quote:
Originally posted by runnin rebels
I always train my dog to hush when tied, I don't like loosing my hearing while I shine...save the dog's energy... nuisance to the homeowner sleeping... whatever.

Now I got an independant dog and when I tie him and I return to shine the others tree I have no Idea where he is.

Sorry guys come on and lets look for my dog while we burn the hunt time and miss deadline.

I TRAIN MINE TO TREE AND I EXPECT HER TO GET LOUDER WHEN SHE SEES MY LIGHT COMEING TALK TO UM GIRL ,I WANT BELLY RUBBING THE BARK AND SLOBBER SLINGING.JUST ME.

Posted by truly on 06-12-2012 10:35 PM:

Re: Re: here is a cast burner

quote:
Originally posted by runnin rebels
YEAH feel sorry for me and miss your deadline so you can assist me.

how far into Chengwatana do you think folks are gonna walk to find a dog that isn't barking? Remember those guys who tried to walk to dogs that were barking? What time did they make it back out? was it 6 o'clock? This walking to a dog that isn't barking is fine for those who hunt patch woods, but not so much for those who hunt big timber.

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Posted by Tully on 06-12-2012 11:26 PM:

Re: here is a cast burner

quote:
Originally posted by runnin rebels
I always train my dog to hush when tied, I don't like loosing my hearing while I shine...save the dog's energy... nuisance to the homeowner sleeping... whatever.

Now I got an independant dog and when I tie him and I return to shine the others tree I have no Idea where he is.

Sorry guys come on and lets look for my dog while we burn the hunt time and miss deadline.

Maybe people should carry some bread! Then they can leave a trail of crumbs to follow back to their dog

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Posted by curtis hansley on 06-13-2012 04:47 AM:

Re: Re: here is a cast burner

quote:
Originally posted by Tully
Maybe people should carry some bread! Then they can leave a trail of crumbs to follow back to their dog

.LOL. LOVE THIS.

Posted by jculler8 on 06-13-2012 01:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
as i stated dead cast it will only take it happening a few times at the big level and these independent non pack dogs will be gone ! and if we start scratching the silent dogs they'll be gone too instead of changing the rules to fit these type of dogs lets get back to where this sport started open trail pack hounds instead of the dogs of today

guess you're wanting those slick treeing idiots back then. I believe the breeds have been bettered over the past 20 years due to independency. I'd much rather walk to 1 dog under a coon than 4 under nothing!

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 06-13-2012 01:37 PM:

To clarify when it comes to "one of the dogs declared treed must bark at least once every two minutes or be minused" (or something to that affect), it is UKC's postion that the two no longer applies once the dog(s) is handled.

Posted by JiM on 06-13-2012 03:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
To clarify when it comes to "one of the dogs declared treed must bark at least once every two minutes or be minused" (or something to that affect), it is UKC's postion that the two no longer applies once the dog(s) is handled.

That anyone should even need that one clarified says tons about why there is so much bickering in these hunts.

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Posted by truly on 06-13-2012 03:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
To clarify when it comes to "one of the dogs declared treed must bark at least once every two minutes or be minused" (or something to that affect), it is UKC's postion that the two no longer applies once the dog(s) is handled.

Allen, what should a cast do then if they are in a situation where they realize that there is no way to find the dog and handler without the dog barking, or are in fear that the handler has hushed his dog while walking through woods looking for a set of eyeballs to put their dog under?
I think UKC should consider reinterpretting this ruling to mean dog must bark til enough of the cast arrives to score the tree. Lots of potential troubles trying to manage movement of a cast to a dog that is not barking.

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Posted by groworg1 on 06-13-2012 04:53 PM:

j culler i would agree about the dogs being better than the dogs of 20 years ago i think you need to go back another 20 years to find the real coonhound the ones of today are coondogs

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-13-2012 05:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
hoserman i started coonhunting before you were sucking your thumb and your post say it all !

I don't care how long you have been hunting, your interpretation of the rules is usually completely wrong and some of your oppinions are without a doubt that of a pleasure hunter. And there's nothing wrong with that but don't act like you know something about the hunts.

Posted by groworg1 on 06-13-2012 06:24 PM:

hey hoser i was in my first hunt in 1973 how about you ?

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-13-2012 06:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
hey hoser i was in my first hunt in 1973 how about you ?

Well what can I say you have me beat by 3 decades. So how do you not know the rules with all that experience?

Posted by truly on 06-13-2012 07:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
That anyone should even need that one clarified says tons about why there is so much bickering in these hunts.

Actually I think getting these things clarified ahead of time is a great way to avoid bickering in the hunts. Last weekend when we had this happen we got through it with no trouble. We were fortunate that we were able to walk within hollering distance of the handled dogs and find them. But sooner or later this issue could raise it's head in a big bad way. As I asked before and I don't think anyone answered it, what are non-hunting judges going to do in the finals of the UKC World hunt when old deep and lonely goes quiet?
There are two other issues that over the last decade I have been a "squeaky wheel" about. Whether it was anything to do with my complaints, one of the issues had a rule change made over it [I brought this ? to some breed assns and think they dealt with it] and another one got on the MOH checklist for a couple of years for clarification.
I suspect Allen and company will realize that this is actually a can of worms as it is currently interpreted. It should never be the casts obligation to wander aimlessly through the woods looking for a silent dog. And without some clarification about how long the cast is obligated to search there will eventually be trouble.
We had a situation at the ZOnes a few years ago where the judge needed to catch his dog on timeout. He stormed off in a huff without designating a meeting place. he got houred and we did not find him til an hour and forty minutes after timeout was called. There was a dog in that cast that went on to win the world. Like the scenario I have been talking about, this was a rare situation. But as a cast we did not want a dog/dogs that rightfully deserved the chance to advance be scratched for missing deadline, but there is nowhere on the back of the card that explains exactly what we should have done. Whether it is the World or a local hunt it seems the UKC honor rules are designed to keep dogs or handlers that interfere with the action of the cast from being in it very long. WHether it be fighting, running/treeing junk, slick treeing, or not treeing in a way that allows a cast to score that dog accurately, those are all distractions from a dog that goes out and trees a coon and lets you know where it is so that you can go score it.

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Posted by max destruction on 06-14-2012 12:17 AM:

Weather its a rule or not some people still choose to not follow them,like majority of cast to score a tree?

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Posted by max destruction on 06-14-2012 12:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by truly

We had a situation at the ZOnes a few years ago where the judge needed to catch his dog on timeout. He stormed off in a huff without designating a meeting place. he got houred and we did not find him til an hour and forty minutes after timeout was called. There was a dog in that cast that went on to win the world

Was he mad cause youquestned weather you were scratched or not for squaling within the 1st7 minutes?

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Posted by BIGGUN! on 06-14-2012 01:30 AM:

most will let ya handle ya dog so they can use a coon squaller more.to benifit them and dont reckin u can put 2 min on them they done been handled

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