UKC Forums - Starting the dog with "too much tree"

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Posted by Sparky on 04-27-2012 02:21 AM:

I can usually knock some tree out of them, never had any luck on getting to tree by getting after one. I like them to tree early on.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 04-27-2012 03:23 AM:

I would want to look back and see when you started looseing accuracy. Was it when the dogs started running with there heads up? That would be my guess. Few know how to track these days. they run a hot trail and find a tree like a article dog finds an article. They trail till they air a hot tree and hit it.
I think if you put some track back in the dogs you will find less slick and den trees.
An article dog can be running a trail fast and as soon as it comes to an article the track layer droped it will make a ninety and go straight to the article the man droped and do it from a pretty good distance away. depending on scent conditions.
I think there is a lot of dogs useing the same process to find coon. The more accurate ones stick to the coon they were running. Good chance if it is the same coon and a hot tree it is there.
Now if they are running a coon and are willing to switch to the hotest scent of coon. That could make them not nearly as accurate. Becouse they will just stop at the first tree hot enough to get there attention.
Personaly I would rather have one with more track in it and learn to tree last. A good track dog is less likely to switch from one coon to the other.
The the fast trail and hit a hot tree would never get beat if it sticks to the same coon but it would be a one in a million dog and could be ruined over night. If it starts switching coon it would be hard to know when it started and even harder to ever fix.

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Posted by V. Cannon on 04-27-2012 03:41 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by l.lyle
That was it . I was just trying to not call names. I shake my head every time I think of how many years I wasted on them before I had enough. But it was a New Thing back then. I had so much enough I finally swapped breeds , not just lines. I don't recall them so much slick as much as what you said about lack of hunt power when they got mature.

In an above post I talked about crossbreeding but this was after I had got rid of that line altogther. Then I went to Walkers that couldn't seem to ever get struck till they were all but out of hearing and it didn't take them but a minute to get that far. No wonder I swapped.

8 years, lets say you hunted 200 nights a year and with a modest average of 3 slick trees a night, that would be 4,800 slick trees. At what point in those 4,800 slick trees did you start thinking those dogs might have a problem or was it something else that drove you away from them?

Posted by Dirtdevil on 04-27-2012 03:48 AM:

yeah , I think about some of these threads where the experts at fixing dogs or figuring out why dogs mess up yap and yap about stuff ..... I feel sorry for all the fun they are missing out on by just finding dogs that run and tree what they get after ... never dawned on me to keep anything else .

Posted by Glenn Wells on 04-27-2012 04:21 AM:

l.lyle - about how the old way that it was done, check on the walker board "High Plains Drifter" of CoondogUp or Courtney, saw the last page about Wilma see if you think it might still be going on ?

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Posted by l.lyle on 04-27-2012 05:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Sparky
I can usually knock some tree out of them, never had any luck on getting to tree by getting after one. I like them to tree early on.

I don't doubt that you can try to and that is the way I got some two year old Coma dogs almost given to me because the trainer beat hell out of them for coming in to a tree. These were nice acting sociable dogs. (I'll save the rest of my coments for later on them)
Seriously,? how many dogs of your preferred breed did not tree (in the last 10 years let's say) by the time they were 15 months old?. PROVIDED you could already tell that he was a cull by nine months old for just not havig the get up and go interest to ever make a coondog anyway. I'm not talking just about yakking up a tree but a pup that you can tell ain't got the brains? I bet I myself have not had one that was going and striking and out running some of the older dogs at least some of the time that did not eventually tree and tree right by 15-18 months old. Or were they history because they were not slobber mouthing off by twelve months old?

Posted by mnb&t on 04-27-2012 08:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by V. Cannon
Sounds like you're staying with the traditional kind of hounds that hunters had back in the 70s.

dang it randy whats wrong??? why in the world would you like seeing coon in the tree not just a empty tree??? LMAO.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 04-27-2012 10:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by mnb&t
dang it randy whats wrong??? why in the world would you like seeing coon in the tree not just a empty tree??? LMAO.

Because the dog has to be older and learn to find the coon before it starts tree it???? ( :

Posted by cmuxlow on 04-27-2012 01:06 PM:

So guys if you were in my shoes and had a 8 month old pup who has drive and heart but gets hooked on an empty tree more times than not, would you?
A. lay her up till leaves start falling of again and she has more time to mature
B. Start disciplining her when she is in the wrong.
C. keep hunting let her do her thing and she'll grow outta it in the woods
D.She has yet to track and tree her own coon should I get a cage coon and let her work a good hot track and then single her out
E. or what would you do thx
I'm thinking A would be best

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 04-27-2012 01:16 PM:

If your pup has yet to track and tree its own coon how does it get hooked on empties? If your hunting it with a slick treeing dog I would say your first step is STOP DOING THAT.

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Posted by Dirtdevil on 04-27-2012 01:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cmuxlow
So guys if you were in my shoes and had a 8 month old pup who has drive and heart but gets hooked on an empty tree more times than not, would you?
A. lay her up till leaves start falling of again and she has more time to mature
B. Start disciplining her when she is in the wrong.
C. keep hunting let her do her thing and she'll grow outta it in the woods
D.She has yet to track and tree her own coon should I get a cage coon and let her work a good hot track and then single her out
E. or what would you do thx
I'm thinking A would be best

You're not making sense ... how can you say she looks to get hooked on empty trees more times than not ... but say she's not yet tracked and treed her own coon at all ?

You can't get an honest answer if you're not honest with your questions or explanation.

Nobody can tell you what your own standards are either ... we all are gonna do what our gut says no matter what advice we get ..

If she can't tree her own live coon , there wouldn't be an issue for me as to what to do ... if she misses then I'd correct her and see if she improved enough to keep her around ... if no improvement came then I'd move on to another .

HOnestly , good luck ... it's a slow process and can be tough on the heart when you are trying to find a special dog to hunt ..

Posted by cmuxlow on 04-27-2012 01:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dirtdevil
You're not making sense ... how can you say she looks to get hooked on empty trees more times than not ... but say she's not yet tracked and treed her own coon at all ?

You can't get an honest answer if you're not honest with your questions or explanation.

Nobody can tell you what your own standards are either ... we all are gonna do what our gut says no matter what advice we get ..

If she can't tree her own live coon , there wouldn't be an issue for me as to what to do ... if she misses then I'd correct her and see if she improved enough to keep her around ... if no improvement came then I'd move on to another .

HOnestly , good luck ... it's a slow process and can be tough on the heart when you are trying to find a special dog to hunt ..

O.k I will take her out with my running dog and in the woods I have watched more than once my older dog will check a tree and the pup will start treeing on it as the older dog continues on
the pup does alot of bird dog'n she has done this with all the drags but has finished the drags good
I have not taken her to the woods alone so she hasn't treed her own coon yet she's just treed with older dog

Posted by cmuxlow on 04-27-2012 01:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Ashbaugh
If your pup has yet to track and tree its own coon how does it get hooked on empties? If your hunting it with a slick treeing dog I would say your first step is STOP DOING THAT.

The pup will keep on the older dogs tail and if the older dog checks a tree or puts out a locate close to a tree this tree happy pup will start treeing and the old dog will keep on tracking

Posted by Okie Dawg on 04-27-2012 06:44 PM:

Just tell her it's not there in a loud mad voice and make her go on. She will learn the command and it will come in handy. When she gets on the right tree pet her up real good and try to squal the coon out so she can see it. A lot of times you can get them to come down far enough for the dog to see and then they will go back up.
In the pups case it wouldn't hurt to squal it out and let the pup run it a few times. If the old dog is good on a tree let it go too but give the pup a little time to try and find it first.
If the old dog doesn't see it come out. Just pet for the tree, lead him out the direction the coon and pup went and recast him.

I know a lot of people will tell you to never rerun a coon but there are not any nevers in training a dog. Seeing a dog leave a tree will help your pup.

Posted by Vince Klonowski on 04-28-2012 05:38 PM:

For what it's worth

Ron, I've trained about 1-2 dozen dogs and have only had the problem of bad slick treeing in one dog. I thought I was gonna have it in Margo but I was able to change that recently. I have hunted/started three different breeds [english/bluetick/walkers] and about 8 different bloodlines so I think I would have run into the problem somewhere along the line, but slick treeing has not been a problem much for me.

Here's some rules that I go by.

1. The pup (6 months and younger) is allowed to chase whatever it wants. Barn Cat's are encouraged!!!
2. The pup (6 months and younger) goes on walks or plays with me of increasing time, 3 - 4 days a week
3. Somewhere around this time, they go for a walk at night. Alone with me or a close hunting dog.
4. (6-7 months) showed a caged coon if interested the coon is hung up. The dog is encouraged to tree and then dog is removed. The coon turned loose, the cage removed, and the dog brought back and encouraged to find it. At this point I watch. Usually you can judge a dogs interest, ability, and problem solving well at this point. [ You knew they wanted the coon before, NOW.. how do they go about getting it? ] THIS IS THE ONE AND ONLY COON THEY SEE IN A CAGE
5. After that from there on out the dog has to strike, track, and tree 12 times with a broke dog. If the pup's too independent to run with another dog they are hunted alone. This means it will usually take longer to start/finish the pup, oh well.
6. After 12 trees then I start hunting them more often by themselves [judgement call on when and how many times]

Now for the tree-minded dog. At this point they know what is supposed to happen. I have not danced a jig, hooped, hollered, squalled, or obsessively petted/fretted over the dog treeing. That's what they are supposed to do, I expect that, and it's not like I found a pot of gold. I will follow close to a young dog, get to the tree fairly quick, check the tree, leash the pup or send it on repeatedly [if slick]. I do not whip, beat, stomp or get too upset. I just send them on as firmly as I need to and use a voice command like 'finish it' or 'go get em, not here' along with sending them.

I believe in what was stated above: MOST SLICK TREEING HAPPENS BECAUSE A DOG IS BARKING FOR WHAT IT WANTS BUT DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO FINISH THE JOB. They can't finish either because they don't have the brains, they don't have the nose, or they don't have the determination..... they just don't have it. Not yet anyways. Some dogs are slower to progress. I believe most of it has to do with intelligence. You can learn a lot from a dog in your yard and how hard it is to teach them to stop barking, sit, come, and heal. The dog's that have been easy to teach in the yard have been the better/more pleasurable coondogs in the woods.

Back to the one dog that couldn't figure it out. It was about 6 years ago. She was started like up above. She couldn't learn in the yard. She was trained with another dog. She was hunted hard by herself. She was hunted very little by herself. Every track she started she was allowed to try and finish. She was given her fair chance. She was 50% accurate and She NEVER progressed to a satisfactory point and was removed from this earth.

Margo was started the same way with a few exceptions. She ran a track in the woods before she was shown a caged coon. She was shown one and had little interest and never showed one again. She is/was not the easiest to train in the yard, she has a lot of energy. When she was young, too young really, she was taken with her mother during kill season. You know me, every coon falls during kill season. Well that just about ruined her. She began trying to get hooked before the other dog. By herself she started to hook-up slick when hunted hard. I would send her on but she had not developed well enough to know how to finish the job. I laid her up and hunted her 2 days a week/ 1 tree a night. With less time I am treeing more coon with her than I was when I tried to hunt her hard. It will stay this way for awhile. She is doing the right thing most nights. Thursday night she struck ahead of her mother, trailed, treed, and stuck. Her mother treed, checked, and moved on another 150 yards. Both had a coon. It was nice, but I will continue to watch her b/c I know her history.

Sorry so long. If you've read all of this, congratulations, you just may have enough patience to train a pup. lol. It is cold. The walleye bite has backed off and I am at home bored.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 04-28-2012 11:27 PM:

Vince it is hard to say much about dog training with out getting wordy. That is one of the best posts on training I have read on here. I agree with all but the treeing on junk at a young age. Even that makes since though since a dog doesn't get it's long term memory till six months. Thanks for posting. I wish more people would do that.

Posted by toe cutter on 04-29-2012 04:18 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
Because the dog has to be older and learn to find the coon before it starts tree it???? ( :

i dont think it has anything to do with age at all. 8 mths old is old enough for my young dogs to start to run and tree alone. but they do have to learn to find the coon before it trees, at any age.one thing it may be is i dont show dogs how or where to tree with caged coon. and to me, all hunting with another dog is for is to expose a pup to coon. it dont teach them to track and it dont teach them to tree. once the pup will try and work a track i hunt them alone. all i do is get the pups to want a coon by exposing it to coon with another dog.. the only other differance i see is the breeding. i just got lucky by breeding an accurate male to accurate females.
someone posted above about a "modest 3 slicks a night". that is a very extreme slick treeing idiot..
and no,a good track dog that is hot nosed and only trees slammers and pop ups would not have any need to check. but for a dog to tree any coon it gets after he better be able to check his math on some. there is a big differance in a dog that just gets treed to be treed and a dog that trees because it knows it has the coon. maybe its the combination of how they are brought along and the breeding.
one thing i have noticed with slick treeing dogs is when the dog locates and comes on the tree slower, the owners always say,man he just dont sound right on this one. and usually it will be the only tree it actually has the coon in.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 04-29-2012 08:13 AM:

LOL Toe Cutter, that was put on in jest but a pup does have to be older to track a coon than it does just to tree one. I have seen pups WAY to young to get up a creek bank around here treeing there little tails off in the yard at home.

Posted by rghnd123 on 04-29-2012 03:57 PM:

IMO

All the drags and hang ups people want to do causes a lot of slick treeing. I hear people say that pup sounds like a machine gun when he trees that drag. Then when the youngun hits the woods it runs a 30 yard track and bam its treed. Listen to that little fellar spit em out. I feel a bunch of drags and hang ups set one back more than any one other way of training. That pup goes hunting tonight and doesn't do much. In the morning there's another drag being laid. Take em too the woods around the desired game. If they got it, you will see it come out. Too many turn loose coons can also be bad. If a dog gets used to finding a track right off the lead every time they won't want to hunt for one.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 04-29-2012 04:14 PM:

Re: For what it's worth

quote:
Originally posted by Vince Klonowski
Ron, I've trained about 1-2 dozen dogs and have only had the problem of bad slick treeing in one dog. I thought I was gonna have it in Margo but I was able to change that recently. I have hunted/started three different breeds [english/bluetick/walkers] and about 8 different bloodlines so I think I would have run into the problem somewhere along the line, but slick treeing has not been a problem much for me.

Here's some rules that I go by.

1. The pup (6 months and younger) is allowed to chase whatever it wants. Barn Cat's are encouraged!!!
2. The pup (6 months and younger) goes on walks or plays with me of increasing time, 3 - 4 days a week
3. Somewhere around this time, they go for a walk at night. Alone with me or a close hunting dog.
4. (6-7 months) showed a caged coon if interested the coon is hung up. The dog is encouraged to tree and then dog is removed. The coon turned loose, the cage removed, and the dog brought back and encouraged to find it. At this point I watch. Usually you can judge a dogs interest, ability, and problem solving well at this point. [ You knew they wanted the coon before, NOW.. how do they go about getting it? ] THIS IS THE ONE AND ONLY COON THEY SEE IN A CAGE
5. After that from there on out the dog has to strike, track, and tree 12 times with a broke dog. If the pup's too independent to run with another dog they are hunted alone. This means it will usually take longer to start/finish the pup, oh well.
6. After 12 trees then I start hunting them more often by themselves [judgement call on when and how many times]

Now for the tree-minded dog. At this point they know what is supposed to happen. I have not danced a jig, hooped, hollered, squalled, or obsessively petted/fretted over the dog treeing. That's what they are supposed to do, I expect that, and it's not like I found a pot of gold. I will follow close to a young dog, get to the tree fairly quick, check the tree, leash the pup or send it on repeatedly [if slick]. I do not whip, beat, stomp or get too upset. I just send them on as firmly as I need to and use a voice command like 'finish it' or 'go get em, not here' along with sending them.

I believe in what was stated above: MOST SLICK TREEING HAPPENS BECAUSE A DOG IS BARKING FOR WHAT IT WANTS BUT DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO FINISH THE JOB. They can't finish either because they don't have the brains, they don't have the nose, or they don't have the determination..... they just don't have it. Not yet anyways. Some dogs are slower to progress. I believe most of it has to do with intelligence. You can learn a lot from a dog in your yard and how hard it is to teach them to stop barking, sit, come, and heal. The dog's that have been easy to teach in the yard have been the better/more pleasurable coondogs in the woods.

Back to the one dog that couldn't figure it out. It was about 6 years ago. She was started like up above. She couldn't learn in the yard. She was trained with another dog. She was hunted hard by herself. She was hunted very little by herself. Every track she started she was allowed to try and finish. She was given her fair chance. She was 50% accurate and She NEVER progressed to a satisfactory point and was removed from this earth.

Margo was started the same way with a few exceptions. She ran a track in the woods before she was shown a caged coon. She was shown one and had little interest and never showed one again. She is/was not the easiest to train in the yard, she has a lot of energy. When she was young, too young really, she was taken with her mother during kill season. You know me, every coon falls during kill season. Well that just about ruined her. She began trying to get hooked before the other dog. By herself she started to hook-up slick when hunted hard. I would send her on but she had not developed well enough to know how to finish the job. I laid her up and hunted her 2 days a week/ 1 tree a night. With less time I am treeing more coon with her than I was when I tried to hunt her hard. It will stay this way for awhile. She is doing the right thing most nights. Thursday night she struck ahead of her mother, trailed, treed, and stuck. Her mother treed, checked, and moved on another 150 yards. Both had a coon. It was nice, but I will continue to watch her b/c I know her history.

Sorry so long. If you've read all of this, congratulations, you just may have enough patience to train a pup. lol. It is cold. The walleye bite has backed off and I am at home bored.

that part of the age factor,if 1 guy hunts 250 nights a yr another guy hunts on the weekend 75 nights.then it takes 3yrs for the
weekend guy to catch up.the less you hunt it and shoot of to
it the better off you will be.

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