UKC Forums - Score this Plus or Minus ???

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-- Score this Plus or Minus ??? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=486288)

Posted by Rip on 02-27-2012 08:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
Winding it or trailing it doesn't matter. The dog is supose to be under the umbrella of the tree.
The first pic could had been plussed if it wasn't for the dog being on the wrong tree. If that tree hadn't been under there and he was just treeing under the umbrella you could had plussed it.

There absolutely positively is NO umbrella of the tree rule. It doesn't exist.

Here's what does exist.

"3. POINTS WILL BE PLUS:
(a) When dogs strike and tree and coon is seen: (1)
by a non-hunting Judge, or (2) by a majority of the
cast when hunting Judge is used. (3) Only one tree
is counted even if more than one coon is up the tree.
(b) When dog is declared struck and treed and coon is
seen other than in tree, dog declared treed to receive
strike and tree points. Dogs not declared treed, strike
points only. If dog catches coon, strike points only."

There is no rule about how the dog trees, tree style etc. You judge the dog. You score the tree the dog shows you. Doesn't matter how he shows it to you. I scored some in the nite hunts that tree by digging at the bottom of the tree. That's not a tree style I like but the dog clearly showed me the tree and it is scored accordingly.

NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is in the rules about tree style, feet on the tree, umbrella of the tree. It's all a judgement call. If you as a hunter know the dog is legitimately treeing a tree/coon then you score it as such. Doesn't matter if the dog is sitting back of the tree, under the coon, standing on it's head, digging, laying down. You score the tree the dog shows you.

I agree that in the first one, if the dog is showing the sapling you would minus it, but if it's showing you the coon above it's head and not the sapling you would plus him. You just gotta see it.

On the bluff thing, it was very clear which tree the dog was treeing up and that she had treed the coon. Absolutely no way to minus her by the rules, but again you would have to see it to know.

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Posted by Blue Iron on 02-27-2012 08:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
Winding it or trailing it doesn't matter. The dog is supose to be under the umbrella of the tree.

You will not find the word "umbrella" in a UKC rule book. It states "showing the tree"

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 02-27-2012 08:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
There absolutely positively is NO umbrella of the tree rule. It doesn't exist.

Here's what does exist.

"3. POINTS WILL BE PLUS:
(a) When dogs strike and tree and coon is seen: (1)
by a non-hunting Judge, or (2) by a majority of the
cast when hunting Judge is used. (3) Only one tree
is counted even if more than one coon is up the tree.
(b) When dog is declared struck and treed and coon is
seen other than in tree, dog declared treed to receive
strike and tree points. Dogs not declared treed, strike
points only. If dog catches coon, strike points only."

There is no rule about how the dog trees, tree style etc. You judge the dog. You score the tree the dog shows you. Doesn't matter how he shows it to you. I scored some in the nite hunts that tree by digging at the bottom of the tree. That's not a tree style I like but the dog clearly showed me the tree and it is scored accordingly.

NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is in the rules about tree style, feet on the tree, umbrella of the tree. It's all a judgement call. If you as a hunter know the dog is legitimately treeing a tree/coon then you score it as such. Doesn't matter if the dog is sitting back of the tree, under the coon, standing on it's head, digging, laying down. You score the tree the dog shows you.

I agree that in the first one, if the dog is showing the sapling you would minus it, but if it's showing you the coon above it's head and not the sapling you would plus him. You just gotta see it.

On the bluff thing, it was very clear which tree the dog was treeing up and that she had treed the coon. Absolutely no way to minus her by the rules, but again you would have to see it to know.

Yea your right. We got in a discussion on here a year or so ago and was talking about how far a dog could come off a tree. That is were I got the umbrella thing.
You are right though.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 02-27-2012 08:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
rules state no climbing trees

Except when you have to climb passed the hole to retreive your dog. Read again, all three dogs were in tree. The were sticking there head in the hole trying to drag it out. Before I reached passed the hole I looked to see if it was going to grab my arm when I reached across the hole. It was just passed dog head deep.

Posted by Rip on 02-27-2012 08:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
Except when you have to climb passed the hole to retreive your dog. Read again, all three dogs were in tree. The were sticking there head in the hole trying to drag it out. Before I reached passed the hole I looked to see if it was going to grab my arm when I reached across the hole. It was just passed dog head deep.

LOL that made it interesting.

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Posted by runumdown alvin on 02-27-2012 10:31 PM:

how do u know its a lay up

The tree the dog is on could be a tap and the dog didn't check the possibility . I would minus it if it looked like ur pic. Most dogs I have seen winding a coon are under the coon but moving around barking up like the are trying to figure out where the sent is coming from. I would say the coon tapped that tree and went up the other.

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Posted by Bobby Reynolds on 02-28-2012 03:14 AM:

Minus the first scenerio

I think I would have to be there to fairly judge the second scenerio. I think it would be a judgement call on being able to see the layout of the land there.

Kinda cool question!!!

Posted by longshot on 03-09-2012 03:45 AM:

Interesting to see how the vote can vary so much from person to person.

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Posted by Huntinwalkers on 03-09-2012 09:26 AM:

scenario 2

i got minused on this one the only difference was he was standing on a log pile looking straight at the coon,

Posted by Rocky Stevens on 03-09-2012 01:14 PM:

I WOULD + HIM ON BOTH TREE IF HE WAS MY DOG ALL NOT HE SHOW BOTH COONS BUT I KNOW MOST OF THE GUY ARE GETTING BEAT WOULD WANT TO MINUS HIM.BUT ON THE OTHER HAND IF IT WAS THERE DOG THEY WOULD WANT + JUST BE FAIR.

Posted by high ridge on 03-09-2012 02:27 PM:

It all depends on where your dog is treed at. If that dog alone it more likely be minus if that dog has company more likely be plussed sometimes more than one dog there and u need it minus so you can pull ahead
Hard for us to sit here and figure it out like earlier judgement call these scenarios could be scored plus minus and good argument given on each verdict

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Posted by Frank M on 03-09-2012 02:32 PM:

I would minus both. For those that want to plus #2 do you also Plus a dog on the edge of a river when you see the coon straight across? I don't both dogs get minus IMO.

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Posted by winters bone on 03-09-2012 03:57 PM:

minus both...trees are not touching limbs and the coon didn't fly up there in the second picture. rules are rules.

Posted by trackntreeman on 03-09-2012 04:15 PM:

dog 1 is minused trees arent blown into each other or obviously leaning into each other , hes slick as a ribbon , cant plus a dog thats winding . dog 2 id have to maybe call interference with the rock cliff ? like i said i dont see where you can plus a dog for winding on pic 1 , and pic two dog isnt showing a tree or a place of refuse where animal went into like a hole . id probaly have took a vote on pic two and took it back with a question on how to score it .

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Posted by Huntinwalkers on 03-09-2012 06:37 PM:

Re: scenario 2

quote:
Originally posted by Huntinwalkers
i got minused on this one the only difference was he was standing on a log pile looking straight at the coon,

i vote to minus both rules are rules and if we stick to them there wont be an argument, got beat that night oh well, went back the next night and won.

Posted by Rip on 03-10-2012 01:26 AM:

Re: Re: scenario 2

quote:
Originally posted by Huntinwalkers
i vote to minus both rules are rules and if we stick to them there wont be an argument, got beat that night oh well, went back the next night and won.

Well if rules are rules show me exactly how the second one can even be considered to be minused, by the rules.

You absolutely positively can not.

Is the dog showing tree? Absolutely.

Is there a coon in the tree? Absolutely.

Can't minus the dog and follow the rules.

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Posted by COALMINER28 on 03-10-2012 02:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rick Dennison
minus both.

Rick yall dont even have cliffs in northern oh ...so how would you know ...lol

Minus 1
Plus 2 ...dog is showing you coon , only seen few dogs that were good around rock cliffs , so they just go to were they smell it best , its not showing tree its showing coon

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Posted by Huntinwalkers on 03-10-2012 02:40 AM:

Re: Re: Re: scenario 2

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Well if rules are rules show me exactly how the second one can even be considered to be minused, by the rules.

You absolutely positively can not.

Is the dog showing tree? Absolutely.

Is there a coon in the tree? Absolutely.

Can't minus the dog and follow the rules.

Its easy he is NOT on a tree, not trying to argue but if my dog was standing 30 ft off the tree on the ground and looking at the tree barking would you minus him?

Posted by Rip on 03-10-2012 02:48 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: scenario 2

quote:
Originally posted by Huntinwalkers
Its easy he is NOT on a tree, not trying to argue but if my dog was standing 30 ft off the tree on the ground and looking at the tree barking would you minus him?

Again you absolutely can not show me a rule that says the dog has to be ON a tree.

It has to SHOW tree.

SHOWING and TOUCHING are two different things. I posted the rules word for word above.

Absolutely nothing in the rules that says a dog has to touch a tree he is showing you. Just says if a dog trees and shows you the coon it's plus.

If you can clearly see what tree the dog is treeing up then you have to score that tree.

No rule anywhere says a dog has to touch a tree at any time.

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