UKC Forums - titles to titles why we do it.

Pages (6): « 1 2 [3] 4 5 » ... Last »
Show all 130 posts from this thread on one page

UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- titles to titles why we do it. (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=481320)

Posted by joseph mcdonald on 02-08-2012 05:13 PM:

This is great.....

Stuff !!! Good reading !!

Now I'll throw my two cents in the ring, and everyones gotta promise not to get offended!!

Lets break this down for what it is.....

We are on UKC's website.

I assume everyone posting here has UKC registered hounds.

These Ukc registered hounds are broke down into breeds.

These breeds have Breed Standards to qualify them as a seperate breed and differentiate them from the other breeds.

Most of these breed standards have things that DISQUALIFY hounds that do not meet their respective breed standard, i.e. off colors, over/underbites etc.,etc.

Ukc does not police these disqualifiers unless they are entered in a bench show.

Ukc leaves the policing of this matter up to the Breeders of the respective breeds. I suppose relying on the integrity of the breeders.

Now, I read on here all the time about ability only and " I don't care what color it is as long as It's got the grease" etc,etc.

My reply is always the same to these statements...........

IF YOU ONLY CARE ABOUT ABILITY... WHY WOULD YOU EVEN THINK ABOUT LIMITING YOURSELF TO ONE BREED??

WHY WOULD YOU EVEN FOOL WITH REGISTERED STOCK??

Top hounds loaded with ability in every breed. Track speed?? Maybe some fox hound blood crossed on that tree idiot could get you there faster??

I am not an advocate of crossbreeding . I believe in a decent looking animal that meets it's breed standard, if it doesn't it should be culled. All this is some food for thought for the Ability only crowd.

Posted by Buckshot on 02-08-2012 05:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cynthia
how in the world will conformation come naturally if breed coondog to coondog and yet in Mother Nature's world its survivor to survivor, alpha male to alpha female? do you really think the alpha male would survive to mate if he was inferior? it wont come naturally if it was never there to begin with.

You do realize you made that comment about Coonhounds?

The same Coonhounds that started as Cross Breeds -- less than a 70 years ago English, Blueticks, and Treeing Walkers were all one breed.

Apparrently coming naturally must have happened somewhere down the road since Coonhounds came from crossbreed beginings.

Example:

Black and Tans were first registered in UKC in 1900.

First UKC Bench Show was in 1946 -- which joined forces with the newly formed NCA (National Coonhound Association).

In those 46 years, were the dogs being bred for hunting or confirmation? Seeing as confirmation did not exist, one has to assume for hunting.

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 02-08-2012 05:58 PM:

You Guys are taken us back where we have already been dont
see a lot of sense in going back,if it was so good we would still
be there.

__________________
I don't run scared, I run to scare!

Posted by Melanie H. on 02-08-2012 06:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bill Ziegler
It's always bugged the crap out of me when houndsmen assume that a properly made hound means "showdog".

Granted.... ear length and color are cosmetic, but good feet, good angulation and alignment are important to the longevity of a top hound that's hunted hard. The big game hunters around here have succeeded in producing big, sloppy made hounds that are pretty much used up by 6 or 7 years of age. My hounds, if nothing else goes wrong with their health, are still going strong well past 10. And those extra 4,5,6 years are usually the most enjoyable times I have with those hounds.

If a hound is not put up right I have a lot of thinking to do before I want to raise pups out of it. There are just too many top performing hounds available that are well made too.

Bingo.....

I've hunted big game in some rough country.. You learn really quick why just "best dog to best dog" crosses don't work if they don't have the proper conformation to go with it..

__________________
~Melanie Hampton~
OutWest Big Game Hounds

You've only got 3 choices in life, give in, give up, or give it all you got.

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 02-08-2012 06:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ladycathunter
Bingo.....

I've hunted big game in some rough country.. You learn really quick why just "best dog to best dog" crosses don't work if they don't have the proper conformation to go with it..

if your belly had the miss meal cramps and you could hunt it for
6yrs till you could reproduce another would you

__________________
I don't run scared, I run to scare!

Posted by dual walkers on 02-08-2012 06:33 PM:

miss meal cramps

lee did you just wake up.. lol.. what ya missing dont sweat it we got them comeing.. you have a nice female comeing on.. and bullet is a sure shot does his job hunting and treeing has the meat in the end.. and is a comfermation correct dog.. very well balanced hound.. if more people raised hounds like him we would be better off.... show his pedigree and pics .. he looks good all way around..

__________________
CANYON CREEK KENNEL owner Steve Randolph, [home of top hunting and show treeing walker coon-hounds] THE PROUD HOME OF 2007 A.C.H.A. WORLD SHOW CHAMPION /UKC & AKC OPPOSITE SEX WORLD SHOW CHAMPION. 2006 BEST IN SHOW WINNER AT UKC, PREMIER. 2010 NATIONAL GRAND CHAMPION WALKER. 2010 OVERALL BROOD FEMALE WINNER.. AT AUTUMN OAKS.. [CCH.GRCH.HILLTOP LITTLE TAMMY]

Posted by Cynthia on 02-08-2012 06:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Buckshot
You do realize you made that comment about Coonhounds?

The same Coonhounds that started as Cross Breeds -- less than a 70 years ago English, Blueticks, and Treeing Walkers were all one breed.

Apparrently coming naturally must have happened somewhere down the road since Coonhounds came from crossbreed beginings.

Example:

Black and Tans were first registered in UKC in 1900.

First UKC Bench Show was in 1946 -- which joined forces with the newly formed NCA (National Coonhound Association).

In those 46 years, were the dogs being bred for hunting or confirmation? Seeing as confirmation did not exist, one has to assume for hunting.

no, I made that comment to someone who said that Mother Nature could do the breeding and the conformation would come naturally. if the alpha's did not mate (being the survivor and the best) then nothing would come naturally.

as far as coonhounds, however many years ago, HUMANs had a hand in the breeding and cross breeding to get the BEST of what they wanted. these same ppl sat down and WROTE the standards for their respective breeds for future owners/breeders to follow in order to keep the breed as they saw it when it was "created" and recognized.

__________________
2012 National Grand Show Champion, World Show Bluetick Female CCH GRCH 'PR' Southern Flame Blame it on the Rain (Rain)
2012 Purina Show Bluetick Breed Winner GRCH 'PR' Southern Flame Grt Balls o' Fire (Jerry Lee)
2013 World Champion Bluetick, 2013 AO Overall Bred By winner GRCH 'PR' Sexy and I know It (breeder)
2015 AO Overall Dual Champion NTCH GRCH 'PR' Sexy and I know It (breeder/owner/handler)
2016 Grand American Overall Dual Ch, Overall Show CHampion NTCH GRCH 'PR' Sexy and I know It

AKC CSG, UKC CCH GRCH 'PR' Southern Flame Bad News Bandit (Bandit)
2010 National Grand Champion Bluetick
2013 AO Bluetick Stud Dog winner

CCH GCH 'PR' Southern Flame Elvira - the one that started it all

southernflamekennel@earthlink.net

RIP Southern Flame Elvira (the cornerstone of the kennel) 5/16/02-1/17/14

RIP Southern Flame Scarlet (the lone Redbone) 5/11/01-7/19/13

RIP Southern Flame Wild Irish Rose (Rosie) 6/15/09 - 3/12/15

RIP Southern Flame Too Hot to Trot (Bonnie) 3/27/07 - 4/20/15

RIP Southern Flame Bad News Bandit (Bandit)

RIP Southern Flame Triple Trouble (TT) 12/17/04 - 11/19/16

RIP Southern Flame Blame it on the Rain (Rain)

RIP AdeleMay's a Smokey Bandit (Adele)

RIP Southern Flame I Like Ike (Ike)

RIP Bella the Beagle

Bear, Jerry Lee, Camo, Maybellene, Lacy, Thor, Sissy, Merle, Tina, Bridgette - the Blueticks, Hollie - the Aussie

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-08-2012 07:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ladycathunter
Bingo.....

I've hunted big game in some rough country.. You learn really quick why just "best dog to best dog" crosses don't work if they don't have the proper conformation to go with it..

Really.... Thats funny because i have seen and followed some of the best packs of Lion dogs in CO. and MT. and most were crossbred dogs that were bred from the pack strictly based on the performance of their ancestors, with absolutly no weight put on appearance. Granted they were tough well muscled hounds with tons of drive and endurance but the thought of a cross based on a dogs appearance would be laughable to those hunters.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by starplott on 02-08-2012 07:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jackbob42
And there again , narrow-minded thinking.............
There never would have been a poodle and a walker to put together if it weren't for "human intervention" in the first place !
Which only proves my point...........When people start breeding for looks , instead of ability , the breed goes downhill.
Mother Nature breeds her canines with only one thing intended , TO SURVIVE BY BEING GOOD AT WHAT THEY DO.
And , I'm not saying that a dog is worth breeding just because it can tree a coon once in awhile. I'm talking the best to the best.
Like I asked before , can you breed a better hunting and killing machine better than the wolf?

It is not narrow minded at all. Drop your best coon hunting bitch off in full heat down at the dog park and see what type of coonhounds mother nature breeds.

I don't get your logic of people breed for looks and mother nature breeds for coonhunting ability. LOL. Don't see anybody coonhunting with wolves, yotes, foxes, or dingos. Mother nature left alone, we wouldn't have coonhounds.

One of the best minded hunting dogs I ever hunted with was a hot little number for.three years that a friend had. That gyp had it going on upstairs. Due to poor angulation in the shoulders and a super straight rear she had to work twice as hard to get to a tree. BUT, she was first strike on the box and was starting bear tracks for the pack on her own as a yearling. When he got her as a pup you could see the hunt desire in her, but you could see the bulldog front, she was out in the shoulders, super straight in the rear and there was tons of wasted movement when she moved.

Her dam, sire, and she herself would flat grab a bear. Saw her several times catch, roll down the hill in a pile of bear and dogs, get knocked off and back up and on it. Unfortunately, she followed suit were her sire was concerned in other ways. By the time she was 3, neither could hardly get on or off the truck. Vets at that time wanted 2000 to repair both shoulders. Not because she was tore up by a bear. Because the hard hunting tore her up because she wasn't built for it.

Wasn't known her dad had issues either until he was 4. He was bred as an awesome young dog. Breeder bred the best to the best in hunting ability. Last litter I saw out of his dogs he gave to a guy to help get him started about 3 weeks before whelp. When I went to see the litter at 8 weeks I about took care of the litter myself. 6 out of 8 pups had fused sturnums. Which meant the last two ribs connected are one piece of bone fused together rolled up inside of the chest cavity. At 6 mos you could reach between the front legs and pick each puppy up by their 'handle'. Most of them, only one had proper angulation, had loose shoulders and bulldog fronts. BUT, for 30 years this guy bred the best to the best on hunting ability alone. He turned out to be another old timer who didn't understand why his breeding program all the sudden started producing dogs who structurally couldn't hunt more than a couple years before falling a part at the seems or why he was getting such severe physical defects (no, he was not inbreeding).

There have been other ol timers who bred awesome hunting dogs when I was a kid that went by the wayside 20 or so years later. Not because they couldn't hunt themselves, just couldn't reproduce the quality of dog in their breeding programs they had in past decades.

Even top sled dog racers look at conformation structure of pups and can tell what ones have structural defects to limit their ability to do the work asked of them. If they aren't conformationally correct, the amount of drive to work doesn't matter. It only matters in the dogs that are structurally sound. If a pup is structurally sound, then they move on to judging working ability.

As pointed out, there are a lot of big game hunters who have accepted dog hunting years ending at 5-6. New people coming in will also learn to accept such just like the GSD people. Hunting 10, 11, 12 year old dogs with sound bodies and minds is a treat that is going out of style.

How can you tell the 2 year old you are breeding is still (outside of accidental incidents) will still be able to hunt hard at 5? Especially with dam and sire only being 4 themselves? Unless you have a trained eye for structure, know the internal health of the dog, and have seen great grandparents/greatgrandparents hunting in their Sr years...it is less than an educated guess.

Most people breeding hounds are just back yard breeders. They think and plan very little when it comes to breeding. They think if they have a bitch in heat that hunts it should be bred to a male that hunts to produce puppies that hunt, right?

Now don't get me wrong, there are a lot of decent and knowledgeable breeders of coonhounds! However, the vast majority of litters do not come from breeders. They come from people who have a few hounds and think that breeding them will make them a breeder.

Breeding is a science beyond this dog and that dog 'should' be bred because they hunt. A science that is still researching and evolving. If scientists and vets are still figuring things out, I guess they are working for nothing because of all these fly by night back yarders have it all figured out. Just breed two dogs that hunt and everything is perfect in fantasy land.

To think of all those wasted college courses, pricey experimental, expensive tests, and careers wasted trying to detect and prevent genetic defects that are easily fixed by breeding a hunting dog to a hunting dog because it hunts. Which in reality helped create these problems to begin with.

I find it real funny that in two of my breeds, it is the working lines that carry the majority of the health issues we are fighting/researching that stemmed from breeders who just breed on working ability alone.

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by Melanie H. on 02-08-2012 07:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Really.... Thats funny because i have seen and followed some of the best packs of Lion dogs in CO. and MT. and most were crossbred dogs that were bred from the pack strictly based on the performance of their ancestors, with absolutly no weight put on appearance. Granted they were tough well muscled hounds with tons of drive and endurance but the thought of a cross based on a dogs appearance would be laughable to those hunters.

Really.. that's funny because I have also.. Colorado, Utah, Montana, Idaho, California, Oregon, Wyoming..

I didn't say anything about dogs not being crossbred.. I guess people automatically think if it is crossbred it must not have have the right conformation?

I seen dogs that were crossed best dog to best dog but poor conformation.. Boy they were GREAT dogs that one day a week you could hunt them.. Then it took them a week to recover.. because their feet can't hold up, or their joints swell, etc..

Sounds like the dogs you seen probably had the correct structure to perform.. Which means when they were bred, those dogs had the proper structure..

I still don't know why everyone is thinking "show dog" when conformation is thrown out there.. I can break down some of those well known show dogs really fast too..

__________________
~Melanie Hampton~
OutWest Big Game Hounds

You've only got 3 choices in life, give in, give up, or give it all you got.

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-08-2012 07:53 PM:

This whole theory of DUAL PURPOSE dogs simply tells me that compromise is being made in the breeding pen and that the offspring will probably end up being mediocre in both departments. As an example if you go to westminster and look at the dogs in the hunting breed catagories you will see beautiful examples of dogs that are in most cases many generations removed from the purpose for which they were originally designed but thats fine because most of those people dont care about hunting the dog and if the desire and ability is gone noone cares.

Lyles... example of the leopard is important because the physical diversity of the breed until recently was never an issue with the cur dog breeders and took a backseat to brains and ability. But since they have been accepted in UKC. more breeders are making crosses that will produce a higher percentage of MERLE colored Pups. to satisfy the demand and the breed will suffer for the sake of uniformity and bench show standards.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by starplott on 02-08-2012 08:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Really.... Thats funny because i have seen and followed some of the best packs of Lion dogs in CO. and MT. and most were crossbred dogs that were bred from the pack strictly based on the performance of their ancestors, with absolutly no weight put on appearance. Granted they were tough well muscled hounds with tons of drive and endurance but the thought of a cross based on a dogs appearance would be laughable to those hunters.

I've hunted with hounds in WA, OR, ID, CA, MT, UT, WY, NV, BC, and AZ. Seen grade dogs and cross breds.

Seen a whole freaking lot of reg dogs as well. Probably more reg stock than grade since early to mid 90's. Seen top hunting dogs and culls in both.

It is very hard to get consistency with mixed bred dogs. Those who had it did keep records and did their homework/experiments no different than some of the reg breeders. Took generations to get the consistency their cross bred dogs were known for that people buy up after all the hard work is done. It was a LOT more than this hunts and that hunts, looks good enough to breed.

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by starplott on 02-08-2012 08:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
This whole theory of DUAL PURPOSE dogs simply tells me that compromise is being made in the breeding pen and that the offspring will probably end up being mediocre in both departments. As an example if you go to westminster and look at the dogs in the hunting breed catagories you will see beautiful examples of dogs that are in most cases many generations removed from the purpose for which they were originally designed but thats fine because most of those people dont care about hunting the dog and if the desire and ability is gone noone cares.

Lyles... example of the leopard is important because the physical diversity of the breed until recently was never an issue with the cur dog breeders and took a backseat to brains and ability. But since they have been accepted in UKC. more breeders are making crosses that will produce a higher percentage of MERLE colored Pups. to satisfy the demand and the breed will suffer for the sake of uniformity and bench show standards.

You will also see some kick ass hunting/working dogs in the show ring at Westminster as well.

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-08-2012 08:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by starplott
You will also see some kick ass hunting/working dogs in the show ring at Westminster as well.

Sure you will.. just as in any litter produced by breeding coondog to coondog you will get a pup or two that has both looks and ability, but the point is most of those breeds have been split into esentially two separate breeds depending on the purpose for which they are bred. Anyone would have to be touched in the head to not believe breeding any two individuals based on appearace rather than performance wont harm the breed from a performace standpoint.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by goodtimekennel on 02-08-2012 08:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Sure you will.. just as in any litter produced by breeding coondog to coondog you will get a pup or two that has both looks and ability, but the point is most of those breeds have been split into esentially two separate breeds depending on the purpose for which they are bred. Anyone would have to be touched in the head to not believe breeding any two individuals based on appearace rather than performance wont harm the breed from a performace standpoint.

look at the plott breed dominated by show dogs

__________________
MERLE COBLENTZ
937-313-2880 CELL
CALL TEXT VOXER
HOME OF GOODTIME KENNEL
WHERE WE SHOW ON THE HARDWOOD

Posted by Buckshot on 02-08-2012 08:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Sure you will.. just as in any litter produced by breeding coondog to coondog you will get a pup or two that has both looks and ability, but the point is most of those breeds have been split into esentially two separate breeds depending on the purpose for which they are bred. Anyone would have to be touched in the head to not believe breeding any two individuals based on appearace rather than performance wont harm the breed from a performace standpoint.

You mean kinda what happened to the AKC Black and Tan Coonhound before AKC recreated their Coonhound program and brought the hunting stock B&T's in?

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-08-2012 08:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Buckshot
You mean kinda what happened to the AKC Black and Tan Coonhound before AKC recreated their Coonhound program and brought the hunting stock B&T's in?

Thats a good example Buckshot but its no different than the beagles, pointers or retrievers Whenever breeding criteria changes from performance to appearance, the breed will change and the genetics that dictate performance will diminish.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by Buckshot on 02-08-2012 08:59 PM:

I agree John.

Posted by starplott on 02-08-2012 09:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Sure you will.. just as in any litter produced by breeding coondog to coondog you will get a pup or two that has both looks and ability, but the point is most of those breeds have been split into esentially two separate breeds depending on the purpose for which they are bred. Anyone would have to be touched in the head to not believe breeding any two individuals based on appearace rather than performance wont harm the breed from a performace standpoint.

And same goes for anybody thinking just breeding hunting dog to hunting dog without consideration to structure (conformation).

There are always sacrifices when breeding. That is why you need to breed for both working ability and conformation along w health and longevity.

I have several top notch cream your jeans working dogs. A few people have offered a pretty penny to have them in their breeding program. NOT gonna happen! Two are from unhealthy crosses that produce a lot if health problems, which was not public knowledge until after the litter came about. Breed any of the two and you will have a high probability of hip, elbow, patella, cancer, or other issues passed on.

Which is why I have them, so no idiots who think they are super jot working dogs and should be bred get ahold of them and pass the **** around. The one everybody wants to see titled and in the AKC show ring is **** close to top of the line in working ability and impressive to look at for the show dog people. To the naked eye, he's the best of both worlds. No jump issues (will scale 8' wall and broad jump max), bites like a mother $&$#6, will flat take a man out and has world famous titled dogs in several countries/venues behind him in the working world. BUT, he has stage 2 degenerative disease in elbows, slight OCD in one shoulder, and some kidney/thyroid issues.

Wouldn't know it to watch him work or look at him (he's almost 2). But behind all that working ability, beauty, and brains...he's a genetic train wreck. Quite a few people don't care...he is a stellar dog and they still want to breed him despite his issues.

If he went to somebody who didn't test... He would have been titled, bred, and caused more train wrecks by passing on genetic defects that would take generations of culling and selective breeding/testing to try and over come. I keep him hidden as much as possible as he is the first dog everybody gravitates to and wants to have or breed to.

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by dual walkers on 02-08-2012 09:10 PM:

whoo

this isnt about showing dogs.. its about breed standards for hunting dogs .. and how our dogs have the abuality too hunt and do what we breed them to do. if we breed poor structuer to poor it gets worse. what we have done is pick up a bloodlines book or american cooner and seen where old bob just won 3000.00 dollars and maybe a month later jim won 1500.00 .. they both are out of say bill and somebodys sue female well maybe tou hunted with sue somewhere and she treed a few coon. know you have a young female that trees some coon. so she comes in heat and you breed her to bill and get pups both parents are dogs that can tree a coon. .. but heres the whole deal .. is bill and sue.. crippled and cant hunt or even get around at age of 6 years old. then do we think about that before we breed to one of your young dogs out of that cross before you make a cross out of those dogs again.. what im saying is ive seen people breed a female with bad joints and broke down feet, to a dog thats a hot stud dog that they know nothing about excepy they read in book where his pups are bringing big money .. cause there treeing at 6 months old.. but at 3 years old they still cant run a track and drive a coon up a tree but are good tree dogs after another dog has treed the coon and they me tood to the tree. or either found a lay up coon. .. and by age 5 they cant get around good there joints are bad,, people just think its because of how hard they went when they were young.. nope toadly wrong bad genatics .. i will say there are a very few cases where a dog got hurt and you defantly know thats the case then its differant.. but not ever time we see dogs that cant move .. is it that they had a accident.. thats what we got to look out for is the genatics of our hounds.. better each time we breed .. any breed.. we will still have hounds that live and hunt to be 12 and 15 years old.. isnt that what we all want.. you know i get attached to mine when i follow them for miles of hunting and want to keep them around as long as i can .. not just get rid of them and get another.. and dont care about my dog i want to keep them if there good enough to tree me coon and drive a track to catch.. i like to here that race and beautiful treeing in the end with mr. coon looking at me when i get there.. and also have a dog that will stay treed tell i get to him..m..

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 02-08-2012 09:23 PM:

Re: miss meal cramps

quote:
Originally posted by dual walkers
lee did you just wake up.. lol.. what ya missing dont sweat it we got them comeing.. you have a nice female comeing on.. and bullet is a sure shot does his job hunting and treeing has the meat in the end.. and is a comfermation correct dog.. very well balanced hound.. if more people raised hounds like him we would be better off.... show his pedigree and pics .. he looks good all way around..

that is exactley what i am saying one not born and 1 6mths old that
neither 1 has never done nothing.the 1st coondog i hunted with its
daddy came from the pound its moma was a redbone ask Fred about
him.i have no reason to sweat i got the last coondog i will need in the
pen at my age.

__________________
I don't run scared, I run to scare!

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-08-2012 09:30 PM:

Re: whoo

quote:
Originally posted by dual walkers
this isnt about showing dogs.. its about breed standards for hunting dogs .. and how our dogs have the abuality too hunt and do what we breed them to do. if we breed poor structuer to poor it gets worse. what we have done is pick up a bloodlines book or american cooner and seen where old bob just won 3000.00 dollars and maybe a month later jim won 1500.00 .. they both are out of say bill and somebodys sue female well maybe tou hunted with sue somewhere and she treed a few coon. know you have a young female that trees some coon. so she comes in heat and you breed her to bill and get pups both parents are dogs that can tree a coon. .. but heres the whole deal .. is bill and sue.. crippled and cant hunt or even get around at age of 6 years old. then do we think about that before we breed to one of your young dogs out of that cross before you make a cross out of those dogs again.. what im saying is ive seen people breed a female with bad joints and broke down feet, to a dog thats a hot stud dog that they know nothing about excepy they read in book where his pups are bringing big money .. cause there treeing at 6 months old.. but at 3 years old they still cant run a track and drive a coon up a tree but are good tree dogs after another dog has treed the coon and they me tood to the tree. or either found a lay up coon. .. and by age 5 they cant get around good there joints are bad,, people just think its because of how hard they went when they were young.. nope toadly wrong bad genatics .. i will say there are a very few cases where a dog got hurt and you defantly know thats the case then its differant.. but not ever time we see dogs that cant move .. is it that they had a accident.. thats what we got to look out for is the genatics of our hounds.. better each time we breed .. any breed.. we will still have hounds that live and hunt to be 12 and 15 years old.. isnt that what we all want.. you know i get attached to mine when i follow them for miles of hunting and want to keep them around as long as i can .. not just get rid of them and get another.. and dont care about my dog i want to keep them if there good enough to tree me coon and drive a track to catch.. i like to here that race and beautiful treeing in the end with mr. coon looking at me when i get there.. and also have a dog that will stay treed tell i get to him..m..

If your looking for longevity your best bet would be to breed smaller dogs, simply because the smaller the dog the longer its life expectancy, this is backed up by some solid science. Beyond that your only option would be to search out individuals that have come from other long lived individuals which would be quite a challenge when combined with the need for them to also have exceptional hunting ability. Another major consideration would be the envoronmental issues that go into a dogs longevity.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by starplott on 02-08-2012 09:42 PM:

DW,

You are right, this isn't about show dogs. Hell, it isn't even about coonhounds. It is about dog breeding.

The only thing that makes this about coonhounds, is that here we are in the 21st century repeating what the GSD people discussed in the 50's, the retriever people discussed in the 70's, and every other hunting/working venue has learned from and is trying to repair damages from.

If we don't learn history, it will repeat itself. The only thing that makes this a coonhound thing is that after all the breeds we have ruined in the US and after all the trials/tribulations trying to rectify and prevent such problem continuing...

It is the coonhound people who think things don't, can't, won't apply to coonhounds. Who think because they have coonhounds they are exempt from having different results despite repeating the same mentality that has created the demise of other hunting/working breeds as it was intended. Just because the breeds are coonhounds, doesn't mean any ol idiot can breed them and not have huge issues down the line with the breeds because a bunch of rednecks felt they could do the same as with other breeds and get different results.

There are hound breeders out there trying to educate themselves and do everything in their power to PRESERVE their breed. But there are a lot more flying by the seat of their pants praying for the best, and already has fingers ready to go in another if it doesn't work out to make a good name for themselves.

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-08-2012 10:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by starplott
DW,

You are right, this isn't about show dogs. Hell, it isn't even about coonhounds. It is about dog breeding.

The only thing that makes this about coonhounds, is that here we are in the 21st century repeating what the GSD people discussed in the 50's, the retriever people discussed in the 70's, and every other hunting/working venue has learned from and is trying to repair damages from.

If we don't learn history, it will repeat itself. The only thing that makes this a coonhound thing is that after all the breeds we have ruined in the US and after all the trials/tribulations trying to rectify and prevent such problem continuing...

It is the coonhound people who think things don't, can't, won't apply to coonhounds. Who think because they have coonhounds they are exempt from having different results despite repeating the same mentality that has created the demise of other hunting/working breeds as it was intended. Just because the breeds are coonhounds, doesn't mean any ol idiot can breed them and not have huge issues down the line with the breeds because a bunch of rednecks felt they could do the same as with other breeds and get different results.

There are hound breeders out there trying to educate themselves and do everything in their power to PRESERVE their breed. But there are a lot more flying by the seat of their pants praying for the best, and already has fingers ready to go in another if it doesn't work out to make a good name for themselves.

Tell us what those GSD. folks that stared dealing with those issues in the 50s have acomplished in the last 60 years aside from importing a ton of dogs from europe to try and overcome all the illtempered, displastic individuals they had created.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by starplott on 02-08-2012 10:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Tell us what those GSD. folks that stared dealing with those issues in the 50s have acomplished in the last 60 years aside from importing a ton of dogs from europe to try and overcome all the illtempered, displastic individuals they had created.

What have you been smoking? The Germans weren't far behind us with their breeding for American interest. Breeding for a more American style GSD was BIG $$ in the 80's. Germans were all over that.

They have been trying to cross Malinois to straighten up severe angles and shorten the spine in Germany. Not sure how prevalent it is or if it is working. Some are crossing DDR and Czech with better results.

I try to stay away from that mess. There are so few GSD breeders I would even recommend anymore.

They still have a long way to go to repair the damage. Won't see it in my lifetime.

Most GSD people have just adapted like the dane people with the short spans. Just like some of the big game hunters have adapted to 5 year wonders. Some people try to repair damage done...but for a lot, it just becomes a take it or leave it issue with the breed.

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:13 AM.

Pages (6): « 1 2 [3] 4 5 » ... Last »
Show all 130 posts from this thread on one page