UKC Forums - Question about Concealed Weapons and UKC hunts

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 01-24-2012 05:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by starplott
That is correct. However, if somebody has proof they are legally within their constitutional rights to carry a concealed weapon...you do not have the right to interfere. Infringing on civil liberties and constitutional rights is not a right we have.

This is something that needs to be handled at the club level. If the club doesn't want to allow such at hunts, the club can make it in their bylaws that under no circumstances are firearms allowed on a person at their club events. If that is not a written rule with the club that they have made clear to everybody...that constitutional right is protected.

That is the problem for now. It is wrighten clearly in the rules that NO GUNS is allowed. We need to have our breed associations bring it up and get a rule wrote up and passed to permitt a person with a permitt to carry to do so at the events.

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Posted by Bluedogman on 01-24-2012 05:42 PM:

Why would anyone want to carry on a coon hunt anyway? A fear of the unknown or what? A gun in the posession of a scared person is a dangerous thing!

__________________
Johnny Williams

Posted by starplott on 01-24-2012 05:45 PM:

Who ever thought common sense would be an oxymoron...

I know the testosterone levels in young men is 20% lower than it was 20 years ago...but does the IQ points have to go down substantially too?

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Posted by starplott on 01-24-2012 06:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
That is the problem for now. It is wrighten clearly in the rules that NO GUNS is allowed. We need to have our breed associations bring it up and get a rule wrote up and passed to permitt a person with a permitt to carry to do so at the events.

There is a difference between the 'letter' of the law and the 'spirit's of the law. Same applies to rules.

Though UKC has a no gun policy (by letter) the 'spirit's of the rule has been made clearly in writing on what was trying be prohibited (which does not include CWP).

Confusing, I know. That's why we have judges at all levels interpretting our laws rather than just letting the cops do it all. That is why courts are always haggling over our constitutional rights. Everything is open to interpretation and can be interpreted different ways by different people/entities. That is where the spirit of the law comes in.

Take UKC's rule MOH and BSJ's must be of character above reproach. To me that means no official should be on a sex/violent offender registry. To me that is not character above reproach (not even remotely). BUT that is NOT the way UKC views the spirit of that rule. So those on sex/violent offender registries are able to obtain/continue official status through UKC. (which in my mind is a bigger fish to fry than challenging the 2nd Amendment v. UKC rules)

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Posted by juross on 01-24-2012 06:23 PM:

person

well i think you people are stressing way to much most coonhunters i know are hardworking family men and would not mess up there lifes just because they have a permit obviously they have a reason for having it and its not mine nor your obligations to put your input in it. i dont see any harm in it at all

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Posted by Glenn Wells on 01-24-2012 06:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
guy's that carry ccp are gay anyways and have ego problems and are the two hour maniacs that i don't want to hunt with anyways if i knew you were packing i'd scratch myself there is no place for guns at hunts just because you pass a background check doesn't mean your sane imo.

Thought that was one of those banded slurs to you folks on the left. The old saying that God didn't make all men equal, Col. Colt did that, pretty much hold true ! I have always noticed that the ones that complain the most about guns are usually the same ones that enjoy being a bully, be it by argueing or fighting anyone that goes against their view. Okie Dawg and his Knife thing falls under the same heading, I would bet it came up because the blade was a little bigger than what the one complaining was packing ! The rules are one thing, but they do not trump LAW, and it seems that somewhere I have seen written that all laws are to followed on the hunts.

__________________
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UKC MOH

Posted by copperheadcreek on 01-25-2012 05:37 AM:

well i will be the first to tell everyone that not only do i agree with the process of the ccp but i think it is a good thing. my only point and problem with this whole situation is that the rules set by ukc in regards to the hunts says no guns, it is in black and white. if ukc wants to ammend the rule to say it is ok to carry one as long as you have a ccp then that is fine. but as long as the rules say no guns allowed, then if i see someone on a cast with me ccp, no ccp, or " oops i forgot to take it out because it is kill season at home" i will scratch them and let the moh and ukc straighten it out..... that is jmo

oh yeah starplot, i aint no idiot. as a person who proudly served in the marine corps, i do know what a ccp is. it is people like you that think you are more educated and smarter than everybody that tries to spell out ( or think you need to draw a picture with a crayon for the people that dont understand) your opinion on everything that anyone disagrees with you on or states thier own opinion. i have my CIVIL RIGHT to have an opinion and to say what i think whenever and whereever i either wish or want to. thank you and may god bless you..... mike

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Posted by starplott on 01-25-2012 06:40 AM:

I think you missed a huge factor!

You have heard from UKC (in writing) and from several of us who are MOH that conceal to carry is permissible. Yet you state you will scratch somebody on a cast for conceal carry with CWP?

Did you not learn in the marines to follow directions of those in authority? If UKC VP puts in writing that conceal carry w permit is not against the spirit of the rules and deems such permissible...that is the way it stands. PERIOD (UKC is the entity in authority for making, interpreting, and enforcing the rules)

Choosing to scratch somebody for something UKC has put in writing as permissible...have fun with that one. That almost tops one who minused a dog track points because he stopped to take a **** for three seconds while on track. I guess some people just feel entitled to make their own rules.

UKC and several MOH's have ironed it out. Did you not read? It is written in black and white (see page 1).

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by copperheadcreek on 01-25-2012 06:57 AM:

when todd or anyone from UKC changes the rule in at least 1 of the three permissable forms of the rules (rule book, back of scorecard, or in the advisor) then it will be permissable, and only then should YOU OR ANY OTHER master of hounds allow any kind of variences of the rules... if todd got on here and said that billy joe jimbob was allowed to take a thermal imaging camera to the woods with him and use it to help find the coon because he was the chief of the local vol. fire department. but only firemen could use them because they have taken classes and know how to use them propperly. would you as a moh allow him to take it to the woods and use it or would you scratch him for using an unautherized visual aide???????
no offence to todd or anyone at ukc, but what you are trying to say is that someone from ukc can gat on here and override any rule written in black or white. IT DOESNT WORK THAT WAY FOR 1 MAIN REASON... for a rule to be overruled by ANYONE all people that potentially may be involved MUST be able to see in writing any rules changes and not all coon hunters have the internet or the message board. so anyone can say anything they want to but if it is not in writing it dont matter..... mike

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GRNTCH CH 'PR' Soggy Bottom Bee Bee
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Posted by starplott on 01-25-2012 07:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
todd kellam
UKC Moderator
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
Posts: 4312

United Kennel Club respects, defends and even encourages your right to lawful concealed carry. We have no restrictions towards lawful concealed carry. Our no guns policy is primarily directed towards 1) gun trading on the grounds during an event 2) open carry on casts 3) unlawful carry at any time 4) to a lesser degree having rifles in vehicles on a cast. We don't go so far as to search trucks but would take action against illegal transport because it could jeopardize the issue of state permits to conduct nite hunts.

I don't think UKC could put it any clearer or iron it out any more. You can't argue with how UKC interprets their own rules when it is in print how things ARE to be.

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by copperheadcreek on 01-25-2012 07:13 AM:

show me where it is in print, on the message board doesnt matter. read the rules mr moh there are 3 places that rules go from ..... THE RULE BOOK, THE BACK OF THE SCORE CARD, AND THE ADVISOR........ that is in the rules, it is nowhere stated anywhere in the rules that the message board constitutes a place to rewrite the rules. we could take our phones and download any changes that are put on the message board and keep them with us on the hunts....... oh yeah the new rules states that you can be scratched for USING YOUR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT and talking (or playing games or texting ) on your cell phones while hunting, you were talking earlier about CIVIL RIGHTS how about someone telling you you cant talk on your cell phone during the hunt or you will bw scratched... i own a business and i will have my phone on me at all times and if it is a work related call i will use my phone.... mike

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HOME OF :
GRNTCH CH 'PR' Soggy Bottom Bee Bee
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Posted by starplott on 01-25-2012 07:54 AM:

Since when is use of thermal imaging devices part of our constitutional rights? No comparison.

I'm sorry, when you ask UKC to clarify a rule, and they do in writing...that is the way the rule is to be interpreted. I'm not about to go against what UKC has put in writing on how a rule is interpreted just because I disagree or think my interpretation serves me better.

That guy thought he was in the right minusing the dog for quitting track for taking a crap too. Where does it state a dog is not minused for taking a crap was his defense. It didn't go over very well.

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by starplott on 01-25-2012 08:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by copperheadcreek
show me where it is in print, on the message board doesnt matter. read the rules mr moh there are 3 places that rules go from ..... THE RULE BOOK, THE BACK OF THE SCORE CARD, AND THE ADVISOR........ that is in the rules, it is nowhere stated anywhere in the rules that the message board constitutes a place to rewrite the rules. we could take our phones and download any changes that are put on the message board and keep them with us on the hunts....... oh yeah the new rules states that you can be scratched for USING YOUR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT and talking (or playing games or texting ) on your cell phones while hunting, you were talking earlier about CIVIL RIGHTS how about someone telling you you cant talk on your cell phone during the hunt or you will bw scratched... i own a business and i will have my phone on me at all times and if it is a work related call i will use my phone.... mike

You remind me of a call I got years ago when I was a deputy. City officer had a guy pulled over with a wooden license plate, no drivers license, no insurance, and did not recognize city police as only county, state, and federal were valid law enforcement.

He sat there and argued how the city officer was violating his right to freedom of travel. LOL

I had to explain to him that his right to freedom of travel was not violated. Just his privilege to travel by that car was stopped, he could walk or get a ride where he needed to go and nobody was going to stop his freedom of travel.

Very similar to your views of 1st Amendment rights to freedom of speech. Nobody is impeeding on your right to free speech. You are not prohibited from voicing your opinion at a hunt, nobody prevents you from talking. Try explaining to a judge that he/she is violating your 1st Amendment right when you get a ticket for driving while talking on the cell phone or texting. Try explaining to a judge having to wear a seat belt is against your constitutional rights.

Ahh, now we are back to interpretation again.

We are not talking about a new rule. We are talking interpretation of a rule by the entity that made the rule for clarity of what that rule really means. There's a difference between clarifying an existing rule and making a new one.

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by copperheadcreek on 01-25-2012 02:20 PM:

you still dont get my point, i am not against guns. but what is said on this message board doesnt matter. it has to be in the rule book, the advisor or on the back of the score card... for it to matter

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HOME OF :
GRNTCH CH 'PR' Soggy Bottom Bee Bee
NTCH 'PR' Yadkin River Rose(4 wins toward grand)

Posted by groworg1 on 01-25-2012 02:43 PM:

next thing you know it will be legal to smoke pot at ukc events as long as you have a prescription ! lol

Posted by mike bennett on 01-25-2012 03:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by starplott
That is conceal carry, Mike (to carry not visible to people, for chc's benefit).

What chc is talking about is open carry (to carry in plain view). Many states have an open carry w/o permit. Which allows some people to carry if the piece is in plain view without a permit. However, such law does NOT allow convicted fellons, those who have domestic violence, and sometimes other convictions to open carry by law (people with open restraining orders or on probation where such is against the order) and it is a felony for those folks to open carry or even have a gun in their possession. Misdemeanor for under age to open carry.

Granted it does not stop those who can't legally open carry from doing so. Once the piece is not in view, it becomes concealed, and a CWP is required. So, for a person to without a permit to open carry (providing they are within the scope of the law to do so) it is legal. BUT, once a jacket covers it, it goes in a jockey box, is covered on seat with shirt/hat/paper/etc it becomes illegal (as it becomes a concealed weapon) if the owner does NOT have a CWP.

Chc's rationale is that they are one in the same/equal and UKC should allow non permitted people to open carry if they are going to allow permit holding conceal to carry. Therefore assuming everybody who carries a firearm openly is legal to do so like every permitted person is legal to carry concealed. Which is impossible for anybody to know if an open carry is being done legally without doing a background check.

Now, IF states permitted open carry (for chc's benefit again, required a background check and gives you a permit stating you are legal to open carry) this would be a moot point. But they don't. Until then the only way one could tell for sure that somebody without a CWP is in fact legal to open carry is to call law enforcement and have them sort it out by running a check on the spot.

Anybody with a CWP has to carry their permit. That permit is legal proof of right to carry. Unless somebody has a CWP in their possession, it is just an assumption made that a person is within legal realm to carry a firearm in the open. An assumption UKC/clubs cannot afford to make.

I still am sticking to what I stated. You have a CWP and carry concealed at a hunt...we are all good no matter how many people know about it. I see a firearm in the open and the exit will be shown and hunt for that person will be over. If a person shows up at a hunt w an open carry there will be a discussion that will end in being asked to leave if a CWP cannot be produced.

In this f'd up state, it is illegal to carry a loaded firearm out hunting. You get caught w a round in the chamber and you don't have game to shoot in your sight...that is NOT a good thing. You cannot even carry a leaded riffle in your truck. Other states I have lived in were not as anal as WA.

Go figure...

Starplott- If you read my post again you will see we are on the same page. In Arkansas you must have your permit on person to be able to carry a weapon and it cannot be in plain sight. UKC has nothing to do with the laws in the state of Arkansas. Arkansas law will over ride any rule UKC has if it were to go to court. Now if you go to a hunt and a sign is posted on all doors, saying no firearms allowed, you better go back to your truck and leave the firearm in your truck. I really don't know why anybody would care, most should never know- hence the meaning of concealed.. Lets say somebody gets Redneck and shows cast he is carrying- Redneck could very easily loose his right to carry, and his permit.

Posted by copperheadcreek on 01-25-2012 04:21 PM:

UKC� NITE HUNTS
OFFICIAL NITE HUNT HONOR
RULES effective January 1, 2011
* Denotes rule change made for 2011
In addition to the rules on the scorecard, the Official UKC
Coonhound Rulebook and the most recent Coonhound
Advisor columns in COONHOUND BLOODLINES contain
additional rules, statements of policies and interpretations
of UKC rules pertaining to the conducting of UKC
events. All event activities, rules, policy applications and
interpretations are subject to the final decision by UKC in
its sole judgement and discretion.

page 5 of the rule book
Notwithstanding anything herein, UKC reserves the right
to itself and its sole judgment and discretion to change,
at any time, any UKC Rules and/or Policies as written in
this rulebook. Any such changes will be published in
COONHOUND BLOODLINES and updated in the Rule
Sections on the UKC website at www.ukcdogs.com

this next part is on page 63 of the UKC OFFICIAL rule book ( not only in the rulebook but in BOLD LETTERS in its own box

ABSOLUTELY NO ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES,
GAMBLING, FIREARMS OR ILLEGAL DRUGS WILL
BE ALLOWED ON THE GROUNDS OR WHILE
PARTICIPATING IN THE HUNT OR IN THE
BUILDINGS THE DAY OF A UKC LICENSED EVENT

__________________
Mike ORourke
HOME OF :
GRNTCH CH 'PR' Soggy Bottom Bee Bee
NTCH 'PR' Yadkin River Rose(4 wins toward grand)

Posted by jason554 on 01-25-2012 04:42 PM:

I think many of you are forgetting the main point it's CONCEALED carry. When I carry you won know it that's the point. If you do see it I'm guilty of brandishing a weapon. Keep it concealed and there will be no worries.

Posted by Lakeland Kennel on 01-25-2012 04:52 PM:

Someone asked on how I feel about the concealed weapons law in Illinois. It recently came up for a vote and was denied. I hunt with law enforcement guys who have the right and do carry concealed weapons while we are hunting. No problem. Heck, we ran upon a meth lab one day while training dogs. I was glad he had a weapon.

If Illinois allowed concealed weapons, I would certainly obtain a permit. But, I wouldn't carry a concealed weapon on a cast. The cast I was on where the fellow was carrying a concealed weapon, in my opinion, he was trying to use it as an intimidation ploy. It wasn't appreciated.

I was trained by the government on how to use weapons at Camp Pendleton and certainly would use a weapon in self defence. Nuff said.

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Posted by wildbill on 01-25-2012 05:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jason554
I think many of you are forgetting the main point it's CONCEALED carry. When I carry you won know it that's the point. If you do see it I'm guilty of brandishing a weapon. Keep it concealed and there will be no worries.

i think these people are makeing a big deal out of it cause they are afraid they are going to get into someone face and are worried that person might have a legal gun,,,

i think they should be more worried about the person who dont have a permit for that pistol in their pocket whos fuse might be shorter than theirs,,

why worry about someone carrying ccp if you arent scared of something..

you might also have them pass a rule that nobody cant carry inkpens on a cast as someone with knowledge of selfdefence could take that inkpen and while your getting in their face could end your life as fast as someone with a gun and with out causeing everybody to go deaf when that gun go's off.

besides in ohio(dont know about other states) during off season (game laws)your not allowed to carry a gun while training a dog unless you have a ccp..

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Posted by wildbill on 01-25-2012 05:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
next thing you know it will be legal to smoke pot at ukc events as long as you have a prescription ! lol

are you mentally handicaped or do you just sit around thinking of dumb stuff to post like this...

__________________
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wildbills101@yahoo
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Posted by Charles Pullen on 01-25-2012 05:45 PM:

This is a sport of competition and sometimes things gets nasty or heated up in the woods. I don't think it would be a good idea with men yelling at each other and one has a gun. The judge scratches someone and he gets real mad and he's carrying a gun. You get to a tree and a guys dog gets chewed up and he's fighting mad and carrying a gun....

Remember first of all it's " SPORT OF COMPETITION" , next we will see basketball , football players carrying guns . To me if UKC lets this stands which some says yes & some says no , you're asking for trouble.

Posted by juross on 01-25-2012 05:53 PM:

got it

quote:
Originally posted by copperheadcreek
show me where it is in print, on the message board doesnt matter. read the rules mr moh there are 3 places that rules go from ..... THE RULE BOOK, THE BACK OF THE SCORE CARD, AND THE ADVISOR........ that is in the rules, it is nowhere stated anywhere in the rules that the message board constitutes a place to rewrite the rules. we could take our phones and download any changes that are put on the message board and keep them with us on the hunts....... oh yeah the new rules states that you can be scratched for USING YOUR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT and talking (or playing games or texting ) on your cell phones while hunting, you were talking earlier about CIVIL RIGHTS how about someone telling you you cant talk on your cell phone during the hunt or you will bw scratched... i own a business and i will have my phone on me at all times and if it is a work related call i will use my phone.... mike

GO IN THAT RULE BOOK OF YOUR AND READ THE PART THAT SAYS ALL LAWS MUST BE FOLLOWED AND THE RIGHT TO CARRY WITH A PERMIT IS A LAW!!!!!!!!!

__________________
TREE GUZLIN KENNELS

PKC CH GRNITECHPR'TREE GUZLIN TINY

2016 OHIO ST PKC TOP 16

AND MANY MORE TO COME

Posted by wildbill on 01-25-2012 06:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Pullen
This is a sport of competition and sometimes things gets nasty or heated up in the woods. I don't think it would be a good idea with men yelling at each other and one has a gun. The judge scratches someone and he gets real mad and he's carrying a gun. You get to a tree and a guys dog gets chewed up and he's fighting mad and carrying a gun....

Remember first of all it's " SPORT OF COMPETITION" , next we will see basketball , football players carrying guns . To me if UKC lets this stands which some says yes & some says no , you're asking for trouble.

i think you should be more worryed about the person who dont have a ccp as they will be carrying and dont care enough to get a ccp will be the ones you all should be worryed about..

rules arent going to stop them from carrying.

and playing ball doesnt have anything to do with carrying a gun in the woods,and how would you know if they(ball players) were or were not carrying already ...

if you have no plans of getting in someones face at a hunt ,you shouldnt be worried about the person with the legal ccp..
you better be worried about the person without...

besides if someone gets heated up in the woods ,just put a ? on card and go back to the clubhouse and file a complaint if needed be...
it takes 2 to fight and if you are on your way back to the clubhouse to ,why would u be worried about a man haveing a gun.i'm sure there are people over the years who have carried and people didnt know about it,,

besides if people know up frount they are guns around,even if they dont know who has them,, ,

they arent going to be heated and nasty stuff going on in the woods,which shouldnt be anyway according to the RULES........

__________________
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wildbills101@yahoo
http://wildbills101.homestead.com/wildbills101.html

Posted by mike bennett on 01-25-2012 06:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by copperheadcreek
UKC� NITE HUNTS
OFFICIAL NITE HUNT HONOR
RULES effective January 1, 2011
* Denotes rule change made for 2011
In addition to the rules on the scorecard, the Official UKC
Coonhound Rulebook and the most recent Coonhound
Advisor columns in COONHOUND BLOODLINES contain
additional rules, statements of policies and interpretations
of UKC rules pertaining to the conducting of UKC
events. All event activities, rules, policy applications and
interpretations are subject to the final decision by UKC in
its sole judgement and discretion.

page 5 of the rule book
Notwithstanding anything herein, UKC reserves the right
to itself and its sole judgment and discretion to change,
at any time, any UKC Rules and/or Policies as written in
this rulebook. Any such changes will be published in
COONHOUND BLOODLINES and updated in the Rule
Sections on the UKC website at www.ukcdogs.com

this next part is on page 63 of the UKC OFFICIAL rule book ( not only in the rulebook but in BOLD LETTERS in its own box

ABSOLUTELY NO ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES,
GAMBLING, FIREARMS OR ILLEGAL DRUGS WILL
BE ALLOWED ON THE GROUNDS OR WHILE
PARTICIPATING IN THE HUNT OR IN THE
BUILDINGS THE DAY OF A UKC LICENSED EVENT

In the state of Arkansas these rules are useless. Arkansas law states a sign must be posted at every entry to a bldg or event that firearms are not permitted, otherwise with your CCP you have every right in the world to be armed. As for the marijuana if you have a prescription, it would be not be considered an illegal drug.

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