UKC Forums - Are dogs made or born?

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Posted by amazingcursouth on 11-07-2011 07:14 PM:

so okie dawg, do you hunt dogs with hunting genetics or do you just train whatever to hunt coon. You have to have a trainer to take them and work with them to bring out what is natural. But as with any hunting dog, genetics is everything. But then again i may just be a sorry trainer.

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Posted by J.Fox on 11-07-2011 07:23 PM:

90% BREEDING 10% TRAINING..... LOOK AT HOW MANY OF THE BIG WINNERS WERE RAISED ON A FARM WHERE THEY JUST RAN LOOSE AND DID IT ON THERE ON. BORN THAT WAY!!! TRAINED WHAT NOT TO DO!! IF IT IS BRED IN THEM KEEP YHEM IN THE WOODS THEY WILL DO IT!!!!

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Posted by ky_walker_man_x on 11-09-2011 04:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by michigancooner
lol I've always had a hard time sitting my dogs down and explaining to them how they need to stay at these trees and bark all night, or how to work and drift this track just right as to please me or hell, to so much as bark on a track or go hunting! I raised a recent pick of the litter pup here and after he had been in the woods about 35 times (by this point at 16 months old) he would hump every dog in site including his mother and brothers, wouldn't bark at a caged coon, and wouldn't go hunting a lick. Wouldn't track or tree or even act like he had ANY desire to do so. I shot the sorry SOB but please, someone explain to me how I should have tought him to track and tree coons. lol sorry for the sarcasm, but I figured that most of the people that have done this for a few (or more) years would have learned long ago that the breeder decides if your dog has the potential to be good, and if you give it rides to the woods and a little bit of easy guidance along the way, it will soon show you what it was or was not born with. By the way, the pup I described earlier was bred out of this world. I guess I'm an awful trainer.

papers are nice to look at and all grand ped
will help to sell pup but im 32 and ive hunted with family from age 7 of 8 and i have never seen a set of papers tree a coon yet . go hunting with pups parents and see what they are about and you will have a better chance of landing better hound ,even then some want make great hounds ,not all but some grand nite ch stud dogs
got there by striking as soon as they are cut lose and grabbing the first leafy tree they come too and buddies on cast agree that a spider eye or nest is a coon, not all but i know of one that has hundreds of pups on the ground that i was cast with dident show me a real coon in 2 hours .so dont get to hung up on big name dogs the best dog i ever owned was gave to me as a pup with a ped that was nothing great but came from good backyard
coon dogs .

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Posted by PlottChaser on 11-09-2011 11:56 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by J.Fox
90% BREEDING 10% TRAINING..... LOOK AT HOW MANY OF THE BIG WINNERS WERE RAISED ON A FARM WHERE THEY JUST RAN LOOSE AND DID IT ON THERE ON. BORN THAT WAY!!! TRAINED WHAT NOT TO DO!! IF IT IS BRED IN THEM KEEP YHEM IN THE WOODS THEY WILL DO IT!!!!

YEP!

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Posted by groworg1 on 11-09-2011 04:25 PM:

most guys give up way to quick. i like those top bred dogs can be bought cheap if not free i never had a lot of money but have had many good coondogs. one mans trash is another mans treasure.. not everyone makes it but alot do. have a buddy paid good money for a 15 month pup. told he ran coon on the way home a coon runs across road stops throws pup out pup just stands there. he hated that pup from that point on needless to say i bought him only to find out he had 5 different names on his paperwork. who knows how many times papers were jumped all in 15 months. he was paid up in everything. this dog is now 8yrs old and is not forsale at any price. he will die here! best 150 bucks i ever spent and one of the greatest coon hounds iv'e ever owned in 35 years of hunting coons.so is a coondog born or made ?

Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-10-2011 12:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by amazingcursouth
so okie dawg, do you hunt dogs with hunting genetics or do you just train whatever to hunt coon. You have to have a trainer to take them and work with them to bring out what is natural. But as with any hunting dog, genetics is everything. But then again i may just be a sorry trainer.

If you want the answer to that go back and read my last post.
That will answer the coon dog part but I have trained a lot of breeds to hunt a lot of differant things.

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Posted by michigancooner on 11-10-2011 12:14 AM:

I guess the point I was trying to make above is that a dog either has it or it don't. Some dogs start extremely fast and easy and others need many, many more nights and time in woods. But you don't "train" coondogs. You can guide them as to what's right and what's wrong, but the fact of the matter is that dog needs to be born with the nessesary ingredients that, when nurtured properly, will show up sooner or later. The fact that some are fast starters and some are slow starters doesn't change that. You can't teach a dog to run a track. You can't teach it to locate the correct tree and stay there treed real pretty till you get there. You can help guide them on there road to reaching there potential, but if that dog wasn't born with the nesessary potential you won't teach it to be a coondog. I will repeat, just because a dog does'nt come on until it's four years old doesn't mean that is wasn't born to be a coondog, it just means that particular dog needed that many more nights than the others to finally reach that potential. So many people like to look at a hound they had that fits that category and pat themselves on the back thinking they beat the odds and "trained" that sucker to tree a coon. Not true. What they did do was have the patience to haul that dog to the woods night after night and give it the time that that hound as an individual needed to finally click.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-10-2011 12:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
most guys give up way to quick. i like those top bred dogs can be bought cheap if not free i never had a lot of money but have had many good coondogs. one mans trash is another mans treasure.. not everyone makes it but alot do. have a buddy paid good money for a 15 month pup. told he ran coon on the way home a coon runs across road stops throws pup out pup just stands there. he hated that pup from that point on needless to say i bought him only to find out he had 5 different names on his paperwork. who knows how many times papers were jumped all in 15 months. he was paid up in everything. this dog is now 8yrs old and is not forsale at any price. he will die here! best 150 bucks i ever spent and one of the greatest coon hounds iv'e ever owned in 35 years of hunting coons.so is a coondog born or made ?

I was out with a guy that jumped his dog out on a coon crossing the road. Released the dog up wind of the track and he went into the wind and the guy had no idea why the dog didn't run the track. LMAO
Little things makes a lot of differance. Even the naturals need some handleing.

Posted by patches9452 on 11-10-2011 01:36 AM:

coon dogs are not born period end of story.... dogs that make coon dogs are born and if trained sucessfully become one... would be willing to bet just as many that are born to be coon dogs never make coon dogs because of a trainer

Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-10-2011 03:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
coon dogs are not born period end of story.... dogs that make coon dogs are born and if trained sucessfully become one... would be willing to bet just as many that are born to be coon dogs never make coon dogs because of a trainer

yep, I wouldn't want to bet against that one.

Posted by groworg1 on 11-10-2011 03:36 AM:

must have been lucky lol got a 2yr wipeout bred ss and perf. had for 4 months really a different dog than when i got him and is making a coondog all for a hundred bucks lol

Posted by PlottChaser on 11-10-2011 11:47 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
coon dogs are not born period end of story.... dogs that make coon dogs are born and if trained sucessfully become one... would be willing to bet just as many that are born to be coon dogs never make coon dogs because of a trainer

I gotta disagree with this. A "trainer" can screw up a dog that has all the right stuff, but he cannnot "train" a dog to coonhunt. As has been said by many others, a coondog is "made" by taking a hound that has all the right stuff naturally and giving it the opportunity to do what it has been born to do. We train it to handle well, to come when called, and we have to break it off of trash, but we cannot "train" a dog to track and tree coons we can only give them the oppotunity to do it.

Posted by patches9452 on 11-10-2011 01:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by PlottChaser
I gotta disagree with this. A "trainer" can screw up a dog that has all the right stuff, but he cannnot "train" a dog to coonhunt. As has been said by many others, a coondog is "made" by taking a hound that has all the right stuff naturally and giving it the opportunity to do what it has been born to do. We train it to handle well, to come when called, and we have to break it off of trash, but we cannot "train" a dog to track and tree coons we can only give them the oppotunity to do it.

i can agree with that but he wasnt born doing it.... taking the dog hunting is part of his training even if thats all you have to do.... if he was born a coondog he wouldnt need any hunting

Posted by GLANCY'S 7 MILE on 11-10-2011 04:43 PM:

No amount of hunting is going to help a dog that can't smell a coon track. All a hunter can do is hunt them and give them the oppurtunity to reach their potential with the tracking ability they were born with. For example a dog born with a hot nose will never be a cold nosed track dog, but with hunting he will learn what tracks he can and cannot run. He will learn where to look and find coons, and possibly become faster on the tracks he can run, but he will struggle or may never be able to work up a cold track and consistenly tree colder coon tracks accruatley. Just like no trainer is going to make a dog with no natural tree instinct look up and start treeing, nor will they be able to make a dog stay treed, or hold pressure. A good trainer, can only give a dog a chance, put them where there is coons, correct them when they do something wrong, and reward them when they do something right.
A bad, good, or great coon dog is BORN, if a dog can be made into a coondog then someone please give me the number to a trainer that can get my Blue heeler to start running and treeing coons

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Posted by groworg1 on 11-10-2011 05:56 PM:

lol buddy has reg. aust.cattle dog trees squirells

Posted by Whordel on 11-10-2011 05:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by KyKoonHunter32
No amount of hunting is going to help a dog that can't smell a coon track. All a hunter can do is hunt them and give them the oppurtunity to reach their potential with the tracking ability they were born with. For example a dog born with a hot nose will never be a cold nosed track dog, but with hunting he will learn what tracks he can and cannot run. He will learn where to look and find coons, and possibly become faster on the tracks he can run, but he will struggle or may never be able to work up a cold track and consistenly tree colder coon tracks accruatley. Just like no trainer is going to make a dog with no natural tree instinct look up and start treeing, nor will they be able to make a dog stay treed, or hold pressure. A good trainer, can only give a dog a chance, put them where there is coons, correct them when they do something wrong, and reward them when they do something right.
A bad, good, or great coon dog is BORN, if a dog can be made into a coondog then someone please give me the number to a trainer that can get my Blue heeler to start running and treeing coons

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Posted by patches9452 on 11-10-2011 07:36 PM:

i will agree dogs are born with the ability.... but thats a very long way from being born a coon dog

Posted by Timmy Templeton on 11-10-2011 07:42 PM:

I thinks it's 90% genetic. They gotta have it in them. Period. BUT the 10% you are responsible for. Care, Praise, Correction can screw up the 90% in a heart beat. Many of em' don't stand a chance.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-10-2011 09:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by KyKoonHunter32
No amount of hunting is going to help a dog that can't smell a coon track. All a hunter can do is hunt them and give them the oppurtunity to reach their potential with the tracking ability they were born with. For example a dog born with a hot nose will never be a cold nosed track dog, but with hunting he will learn what tracks he can and cannot run. He will learn where to look and find coons, and possibly become faster on the tracks he can run, but he will struggle or may never be able to work up a cold track and consistenly tree colder coon tracks accruatley. Just like no trainer is going to make a dog with no natural tree instinct look up and start treeing, nor will they be able to make a dog stay treed, or hold pressure. A good trainer, can only give a dog a chance, put them where there is coons, correct them when they do something wrong, and reward them when they do something right.
A bad, good, or great coon dog is BORN, if a dog can be made into a coondog then someone please give me the number to a trainer that can get my Blue heeler to start running and treeing coons

That is true. If that is all you know how to do with a dog then you can't teach one much. On the other hand if you put it on a long line and make drags for it. Then hold on to the line and don't let it go over 6 feet past a turn it speeds up the dogs learning process. Your right about the nose though. They do have to be able to smell it. They allso have to have the drive to want to do it.
BUT A DRUG DOG ISN'T BORN WITH THE INSTINCT TO BARK AT A CEILING WITH DOPE ABOVE IT. It can be taught. Now I like the best of both worlds. A dog bred for the job and a trainer that can enhance its natural instincs. I have gotten lazy as I got older. I use to just see what I could get a dog to do.

Posted by J.Fox on 11-10-2011 11:53 PM:

Old Dominion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU ARE ABSOLUTETY CORRECT MY FRIEND!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted by jlw13 on 11-13-2011 03:49 AM:

born or trained

I train young dogs from alot of differen't walker breeds.I believe it is 60% breeding and 40% training.You get looks,mouth,drive,hot or cold nose,treeing instinct from breeding.Some walkers are known for tracking ability, while others are known for treeing ability.Its no problem to get a dog to tree these days.Getting a dog to hunt hard and turn a cold track into a hot track in a short amount of time with a coon on the end is getting hard to find.You can't hardly train that into a hound.You can take an average bred hound and train it to tree a hot coon from time to time but it probably just be an average hound that will never get any better.You can have 10 pups from the same litter and give them to differen't handlers and you'll have ten differen't opinions of that breed.MORAL OF THE STORY You need to decide what type hound you want to hunt then hope that you or somebody can train it.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-14-2011 05:34 PM:

Re: born or trained

quote:
Originally posted by jlw13
I train young dogs from alot of differen't walker breeds.I believe it is 60% breeding and 40% training.You get looks,mouth,drive,hot or cold nose,treeing instinct from breeding.Some walkers are known for tracking ability, while others are known for treeing ability.Its no problem to get a dog to tree these days.Getting a dog to hunt hard and turn a cold track into a hot track in a short amount of time with a coon on the end is getting hard to find.You can't hardly train that into a hound.You can take an average bred hound and train it to tree a hot coon from time to time but it probably just be an average hound that will never get any better.You can have 10 pups from the same litter and give them to differen't handlers and you'll have ten differen't opinions of that breed.MORAL OF THE STORY You need to decide what type hound you want to hunt then hope that you or somebody can train it.

YEP, that is a good post.

Posted by dean jamerson on 11-14-2011 06:11 PM:

There are men that i call houndsmen that have the ability to bring the best out of a dog and have an eye for hounds with ability. These type of guys will have good dogs regardless if they are fooling with beagles bird dogs, fox dogs etc.

When you match a dog with ability to one of these houndsmen is when you see the real dandies rise to the top. I Can't count the number of times where I have seen a situation where I thought the dog was smarter than the individual hunting it. Not every dog is going to make a top hound, and not everybody knows how to train/start one.

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Posted by Harley Smith on 11-14-2011 09:47 PM:

so they must first be born of the water then born of the spirit.

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