UKC Forums - Should silent dogs be scratched?

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-- Should silent dogs be scratched? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=456734)

Posted by gfults on 10-19-2011 08:54 AM:

In the original post the man said he knew what the rules say, so I doubt he was looking for 200 people to repeat the rule. He said WHATS YOUR OPINION?? Mine is this. Tight and/or silent dogs tend to be more accurate because they dont give Mr. Coon a warning that they're on the way. They slip up on them and the coons either gotta climb or turn and fight! This is another opinion of mine: If I have to scratch a dog thats getting every last strike, if its not been shut out on strike, just to beat that dog, then I need to take a good look at the junk Im hunting. One more: If a dog that gets every last strike beats me treeing coons, then the dog deserves to win. How many of yall needs to win a cast so bad, that after getting hammered by a silent coon treeing dog, would actually have the nerve to question the dog needing to be scratched?? I like an open trailing dog as much as anybody. But to say a hound aint a hound because its real tight or silent is absurd!!!!!JMO

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Posted by gfults on 10-19-2011 09:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by l.lyle
How can you tell if a silent dog is carrying the mail or meetooing? You cant. So like the man said, you might as well just splotlight them. You mentioned a slow dog that opens every breath,; against a silent slow track sniffer? At least one dog in the crowd needs to open like he ought to in order to compare (compete) the others to..

I'll guarantee you cant spotlight as many coons as a good silent mouth hound can tree! When Mr. Silent stobs down treed, just listen to that good ole race those mouthy track challenged dogs are runnin as they run it right on up to the tree and back ole Mr. Silent, whose been waitin patiently!! A good stop watch will allow you hours of comparison pleasure!

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Posted by skeets on 10-19-2011 11:19 AM:

the way i look at it is the dogs that shows me the most coons are the best dogs that why i like still mouth dogs, iffing i wanted to hear a race i would build me a fire and turn the fox hounds ah loose and carry on how they are running that fox but i like to see coon eyes i dont care if they did the be by beep or the twist and shout to put him up there. if you see a lot of coons with a dog around here its a good bet hes pretty cold nose and can run a track but like i said i dont care how he puts them up their lol.

Posted by shawnwright on 10-19-2011 12:46 PM:

silent

If I had a dog that opened on track and couldn't beat a silent hound in a hunt. Where the silent dog is takin seventy five points less that the first strike dog every drop, then consider givin that hound away or one way ticket out of this world. Cause in my opinion the silent dog works track jjust like a open trailer and neither one should miss a lot. They both are gonna miss some coons. Cause silent hound likes to cold track to. I know I have one. Huntin a silent dog if you ain't got one that's real independent u ain't gonna win anyways. gotta get the first trees. To manage much of a score. Pplus I. Don't think they are to many hounds that are true silent. Just cause a dog takin fourth strike most of time doesn't mean he is silent. He may jjust bark on hot tracks. Doesn't mean he won't move a cold track, never say a word and make other dogs look silly before night is over. Very hard to prove. Even if I had a open mouth dog. U bring all the silent dogs u want cause that increases ur chance of treein coons. I don't care a bit to hunt with em in competition. Can't fault a good hound for this. Just leave them two hour strike dogs at home please haha jmo good thread goin here

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Posted by Lakeland Kennel on 10-19-2011 01:03 PM:

Some silent dogs may locate on several trees before treeing. Onviously, the dog is moving but is only opening on trees. There are alot of silent trailers that get away with it. I could name English strains that are full of silent trailers and I could name Historical Reproducers that were silent trailers when I hunted with them.

I personally think a rule is a rule and should be enforced. But, the silent rule is almost never enforced. There are plenty of Grand Nite Champion silent dogs. All breed standards call for open dogs. Silent dogs do not meet the breed standards yet there are Hall of Fame and Historical Reproducers that are known silent trailers.

I say the rule needs to be deleted but it will never happen.

I own Curs as well as hounds and many Curs open on coon. They should be allowed to compete with hounds. That won't happen either.

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Posted by Whordel on 10-19-2011 01:31 PM:

Listen to that dog tree lol.Some of you folks kill me.I enjoy the race just as much as I do the tree.I dont know how you get anything out of a dog that just tress and thats it.Back then when I hunted the hunts I didnt care if you had a dog that was silent or sounded like a fox hound,you better been packing a hound of some sort if you were going to beat my old rock dog.I drew out with boys that I knew were hunting silent dogs and I would just laugh when they would pitch their dogs in.All of those traits are bred into a dog,if you want a silent dog or one that sounds like a fox hound thats just fine but Im breeding for a better hound that can move a coon like he is running junk and has that beautiful bawl mouth on track that rolls up on the wood with a big dying locate and then trees with the meat.Each to his own I guess and NO I dont think they should be scratched,if you have a better hound than me that night then congrats on the win.

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Posted by Paul Coffey on 10-19-2011 02:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by gfults
In the original post the man said he knew what the rules say, so I doubt he was looking for 200 people to repeat the rule. He said WHATS YOUR OPINION?? Mine is this. Tight and/or silent dogs tend to be more accurate because they dont give Mr. Coon a warning that they're on the way. They slip up on them and the coons either gotta climb or turn and fight! This is another opinion of mine: If I have to scratch a dog thats getting every last strike, if its not been shut out on strike, just to beat that dog, then I need to take a good look at the junk Im hunting. One more: If a dog that gets every last strike beats me treeing coons, then the dog deserves to win. How many of yall needs to win a cast so bad, that after getting hammered by a silent coon treeing dog, would actually have the nerve to question the dog needing to be scratched?? I like an open trailing dog as much as anybody. But to say a hound aint a hound because its real tight or silent is absurd!!!!!JMO

Agreed... Its just a preference. I have had both dogs and from experience the more tight mouth, the more accruate they are.. I am a firm believer.. IF A DOG ISN'T BARKING IT IS THINKING! A dog that is barking is not thinking.. ...Which goes along with the old saying for humans "think before you talk."

Posted by amazingcursouth on 10-19-2011 02:06 PM:

I have been in this game a loooong time, and i comp hunted for good many years. But you got alot of guys thats been hunting 5 to 10 years and all they have been drilled is winning the hunts. First strike first tree or i dont feed them. If they really ever owned a sure nuff coon dog they would change their minds. Im not talking about a dog that will tree a coon, im talking about a COON DOG. As for the silent hounds go, Smiths Hardtime Rocky, did not open much at all on track. He won the purina race in 88 or 89. Mundo, Radar were really really tight on the ground and Radar won the world hunt. Im not saying silent dogs are better, but they do tend to be more accurate and faster. An independent tight mouth dog with blister a full open dog 8 out of 10 hunts.

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Posted by Harley Smith on 10-19-2011 03:52 PM:

It is nice to see we all have different opinions on the type of dogs we like. If I could have the perfect dog I would want one that had a loud bawl mouth on track that opened very little at the beginning of the track and opened more the closer he got to the coon, with 2 or 3 dying locates and turn over to steady loud chop on tree, and when he was on track I would want him to run it to catch it. but will settle for a dog that wins. lol

Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-19-2011 04:04 PM:

First strike first tree is 225. First tree second strike is 200 points.
Good hound against good hound and that be the only differance the first strike and tree will win BUT you don't have two real nice hounds in a cast very often. I would say either one would be an honor to own. I personaly would rather have the open mouth. I like to listen to the dogs work. That is a big part ot the enjoyment in it for me.

As for scratching a silent dog. YES it has to be struck in before it is treed in. It cant be honestly struck in if it never barks on the ground.

If it was up to me though that rule would be changed and a dog silent dog would be allowed to hunt but not be able to be struck on a tree. If people wanted to try to win on tree points only more power to them.

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Posted by thedirtyrat1 on 10-19-2011 04:06 PM:

Just a scenario. Okay 2 hour hunt. Dog ABCD. Dog A is silent on track. BCD are open trailers. BCD open on track. A opens to left treed. BCD tree with him. Coon is seen. Score A 25+ on track 125+ on tree=150+ Score B 75+ on track 75+ on tree =150+ Score C 50+ on track 50+ on tree=100+ Score D 25+ on track 25+ on tree =50+ Score stands. A=150+ B=125+ C=100+ D=50+ Okay. Cast again. D opens C opens A opens treed again (handler strikes and trees immediately) B opens. BDC Come into A's tree and are treed in that order. Coon seen again. A score =175+ B score=75+ C score=100+ D score =150+ on tree. Hunt is over. Score total = A 325+ B 225+ C 200+ D 200+. Guess who wins. Would changing the 125 to 100 on the tree not give the silent dog such and advantage? You do the math. Kick it around in your head.

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Posted by thedirtyrat1 on 10-19-2011 04:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by thedirtyrat1
Just a scenario. Okay 2 hour hunt. Dog ABCD. Dog A is silent on track. BCD are open trailers. BCD open on track. A opens to left treed. BCD tree with him. Coon is seen. Score A 25+ on track 125+ on tree=150+ Score B 75+ on track 75+ on tree =150+ Score C 50+ on track 50+ on tree=100+ Score D 25+ on track 25+ on tree =50+ Score stands. A=150+ B=125+ C=100+ D=50+ Okay. Cast again. D opens C opens A opens treed again (handler strikes and trees immediately) B opens. BDC Come into A's tree and are treed in that order. Coon seen again. A score =175+ B score=75+ C score=100+ D score =150+ on tree. Hunt is over. Score total = A 325+ B 225+ C 200+ D 200+. Guess who wins. Would changing the 125 to 100 on the tree not give the silent dog such and advantage? You do the math. Kick it around in your head.

Somebody change all the 125's on first tree to 100's and tally up the score and post it. I'll check back later.

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Posted by Lone Pine JB on 10-19-2011 04:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
It is a breed standard that hounds open on track......There is no doubt in my mind thats where the rule stems from.

The problem with this rule is defining a silent dog.....VERY VERY few hounds are 100% silent IMO.

Bou't as many get scratched for it as there are dogs minused for babbling so I'd say its a wash...

I'd like to see the ones that leave the lead barking get scratched if we have to keep scratching the silent ones.

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Posted by thedirtyrat1 on 10-19-2011 04:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Forest
I'd like to see the ones that leave the lead barking get scratched if we have to keep scratching the silent ones.

I agree.

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Posted by Whordel on 10-19-2011 04:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Forest
I'd like to see the ones that leave the lead barking get scratched if we have to keep scratching the silent ones.

Thats usually when the guys that are hunting silent dogs strike or should I say pitch in their dogs so you definately wouldnt want to scratch the babbling idots lol.

Posted by patches9452 on 10-19-2011 04:59 PM:

long story short if they bark one time on the ground they aint silent... i had a guy threaten to scratch me one night in a hunt because my dog he said was silent... she is not by a long shot but when dogs are opening and cant move a track and just standing on there head she will sometimes just fall treed.... a stone silent hound on track in my opinion should be scratched and i have only seen one out of all the hounds i have hunted with... tight on the ground is fine but silent is not a hound trait and something that i dont feel belongs in a hound hunt...if you get caught pitching them i think you should be scratched... if you want to hunt them and recieve tree points only i could probably agreee with that... this isnt about winning or loseing its about a hound and the traits they should have... jmo

Posted by Harley Smith on 10-19-2011 05:41 PM:

top

Posted by thedirtyrat1 on 10-19-2011 05:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
long story short if they bark one time on the ground they aint silent... i had a guy threaten to scratch me one night in a hunt because my dog he said was silent... she is not by a long shot but when dogs are opening and cant move a track and just standing on there head she will sometimes just fall treed.... a stone silent hound on track in my opinion should be scratched and i have only seen one out of all the hounds i have hunted with... tight on the ground is fine but silent is not a hound trait and something that i dont feel belongs in a hound hunt...if you get caught pitching them i think you should be scratched... if you want to hunt them and recieve tree points only i could probably agreee with that... this isnt about winning or loseing its about a hound and the traits they should have... jmo

no blue dogs aloud on this page. Just joking Stevie.

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Posted by rmcmillan on 10-19-2011 06:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Whordel
Thats usually when the guys that are hunting silent dogs strike or should I say pitch in their dogs so you definately wouldnt want to scratch the babbling idots lol.

I AGREE WITH THAT.

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Posted by l.lyle on 10-19-2011 06:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rmcmillan
I AGREE WITH THAT.

Me too. But when hunting a silent dog Garmins shure make it nice so you know whether the dog is in or curled up 100 feet from you. Also with a Garmin you could take a silent dog that just whispers a little at the tree and a air rifle and hunt downtown.

Posted by thedirtyrat1 on 10-19-2011 06:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by l.lyle
Me too. But when hunting a silent dog Garmins shure make it nice so you know whether the dog is in or curled up 100 feet from you. Also with a Garmin you could take a silent dog that just whispers a little at the tree and a air rifle and hunt downtown.

LOL

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Posted by rmcmillan on 10-19-2011 07:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by l.lyle
Me too. But when hunting a silent dog Garmins shure make it nice so you know whether the dog is in or curled up 100 feet from you. Also with a Garmin you could take a silent dog that just whispers a little at the tree and a air rifle and hunt downtown.

YEA I AGREE WITH THIS TO. MY SILENT MALE WOULD BE HUNTING I ALWAYS HAD TO WONDER WHERE HE WAS. SURE WAS GLAD WHEN GARMIS CAME OUT.

Posted by Harley Smith on 10-19-2011 07:08 PM:

expand you hunting land with a silent dog. downtown here we come. lol

Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-19-2011 07:10 PM:

I wonder how many folks that say it's a matter of preference, hunt a breed, or if they cross-breed. If they hunt a particular breed, and register them, then it's not a matter of preference. To maintain the integrity of a breed we should all do our best to adhere to a breed standard.

If you don't care about the standard... fine that's your choice, but keep those dogs to yourself or like-minded people, and out of my pedigree.

If you don't like a dog that opens on track, and only care about winning and killing coon, then you don't like coon hounds, as that's what they are supposed to do! And if they don't, they deserve to be scratched from a "coonhound competition".

David Schmidt

Posted by thedirtyrat1 on 10-19-2011 07:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
I wonder how many folks that say it's a matter of preference, hunt a breed, or if they cross-breed. If they hunt a particular breed, and register them, then it's not a matter of preference. To maintain the integrity of a breed we should all do our best to adhere to a breed standard.

If you don't care about the standard... fine that's your choice, but keep those dogs to yourself or like-minded people, and out of my pedigree.

If you don't like a dog that opens on track, and only care about winning and killing coon, then you don't like coon hounds, as that's what they are supposed to do! And if they don't, they deserve to be scratched from a "coonhound competition".

David Schmidt

Very well said.

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