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-- The thing about track dogs......... (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=439941)

quote:

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Originally posted by truly
From JiM:
"I think the only good way to judge a track dog requires you to have something to compare your dog to. It seems to me the easiest way to make such comparisons is simply which dog gets treed first AND HAS A COON"....

JiM, what percentage of coon that are treed in Indiana do you think were tracked to the tree? Compared to coon that are winded/located or some other version of a layup coon?

I think a lot of us that hunt in parts of the country where there is more tracking involved think that a fairly high percentage of Indiana [northern at least] are treed with little tracking involved. IMO I don't really consider it "tracking" if a dog gets treed within 100 yards of where it first opened. I mean, that coon could have been tracked, but many parts of the country a "track" would mean at least a 1/4 mile chase.

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AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

I definately don't agree that chop mouth dogs are faster than bawl mouth dogs.

I agree that a dog getting treed first is usually pretty quick about something. Just may not be tracking LOL. In thin coon it's prolly tracking. In thick coon it may just be tree checkin. It's going to be difficult to judge track speed just based on trees made. You don't nessissarily have to track a lick to tree a whole mess of coons in Indiana. It's also hard to judge track speed if the dogs ain't together. One runnin a hot track vs one runnin a cold one. One runnin a grown coon, one runnin a kit that pops up the first bush it comes to. I think you need to have other dogs to judge it against.

And furthermore, I am of the opinion that true track speed is extremely rare (at least what I call fast).

If you have ever had a truly fast track dog you will understand what I am talking about. You may be like me and spend the rest of your life judging every dog against that dog. A truly fast track dog will catch coon on the ground with some regularity. They will run tracks so quickly that people that don't know them will think they are on a different track than the other dogs, only to have those dogs trail in and tree with them 5 minutes later. They will be accused of running a deer cause they run off and leave everything else so bad only to see those others come in straggling on that same track after you have already went to the tree and seen the coon. They make ordinary dogs look slow.

I had one of those, she was a little bitty 35-40 pound black dog that averaged catching about 2 coon every month or two on the ground. Open track dog, squall/bawl mouth. She caught them in cornfields, open woods, rivers, creeks, mountains wherever. She caught them in NC, TN, KY, GA, and Illinois (Autumn Oaks she caught 2 on the ground that year). She was a true speed deamon. I have her daughter, and she's quick, but her momma was in a whole different league. Never saw a chop mouth dog that could keep up with her, but I will likely never own another dog as fast as her in my life either.

I guess what I am saying is track speed is an individual trait, that dogs daughter is a better all around coondog than her momma was, but even though she is better all around she doesn't have track speed like she did. Sure she's quick. She still gets her share of first trees even at the age of 11, she caught one on the ground when she was 9 in front of a 2 year old nice dog, but she isn't the speed deamon her mother was.

The fast dog I am talking about(and will likely talk about until I die myself) didn't look like a greyhound, didn't have long legs, was a small dog and just didn't look like the speed deamon she was and was squall/bawl on track. None of that mattered cause she wanted to catch whatever she was after and she even cold trailed with her head up (if it was cold she would put her head down from time to time but most of the time her head was up, not straight up, kinda about knee high or so).

So no I don't think you can simplify it as saying "this track bark is faster" or "this breed is faster" or "this build is faster" cause alot of it is in the desire to catch of the individual dog.

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No offense Rip, because I respect your opinion as much as anyones, but I have noticed that the people who talk the most about how easy it is to tree coons in Indiana are people who seldom, if ever, tree coons in Indiana. Bring a dog that can't or won't work a track up here to Elkhart county and you will go home just as sad faced as you did back in Tennessee.

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UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
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AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Jim, look at the list of places where she caught them on the ground.

On of those states was Indiana.

I have been there. Never had any trouble treeing coons up there (never had trouble treeing coons anywhere for that matter).

In all honesty there were more coons up there than we had squirrells and I had a solid week where we only got one good race. The rest were what I called "pop ups" that never went more than 100 yards or so to tree. That was in December/Jan right after Christmas.

I'm not sayin it's always like that. I'm just sayin that in those northern states the dogs don't have to run a track to tree coons because they are blessed with a coon population nice enough that a dog that just runs through the woods and checks trees can make several trees in a 2 hour nite hunt. It's not a bad thing. That dog has to get out and hunt to check those trees. It's just a viable way of treeing coons in thick coon, whether it be Indiana, Illinois, Tennessee or wherever there is thick coon (where I live now in Tennessee I consider thick coon so a dog that just checks trees here could tree a pile of coon without tracking too LOL).

I saw 17 coon in one nite hunt in Ohio. 17. Of course we won the whole hunt(my cast not my dog I was the first loser LOL), but that was unreal. 17 coon sittin up in a 2 hour nite hunt.

I forgot to put that in as a state where she caught one on the ground but she got one that night too LOL.

There are problems with areas of thick coon too. The dogs have to learn how to weave a single track out of all those they can smell and not get side tracked etc. Otherwise they will slick like crazy up there treein where the coon was and not where it is. I know about that too had a pup up there that slicked more that week than she had her entire life before that. She was so confuse her ears were smokin LOL

In all honesty I should have just said "thick coon" instead of Indiana, Illinois or whatever cause in some places in those states they have thin coon too. It's just that the midwest/north is synonomyous for "thick coon" to us folks that have grown up huntin in places that have one coon everybody in the county chases LOL. I'll try to be better about that in the future.

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But Rip, if we are talking about coonhunting in east Tenn, lets say dog A is consistently coming treed with a coon ahead of dog B, night after night, would you not conclude that dog A was the better track dog? That is my point.

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UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Well Jim you also have what I call "coon sense". Some dogs have it, some don't.

My brother owned a dog that you could turn him out on an interstate and he would find a coon. You literally could not dry hole that dog (you could in a hunt but not in real life where you can find the dog no matter how far away he was when he got struck), and to be honest he looked pretty dang good when folks would try to dry hole him.

He would find that blackberry patch, he would find the only cherry trees this side of 40, etc etc. He was just good at gettin to an area that held coons no matter where you turned him out at. When you put it all together he won his cast about 70% of the time just because he had what I called "coon sense". It didn't hurt that he was quick on track too but he would beat dogs on their own buckets cause he would get some of their pop up bucket coon and then get off by himself and get that one up on the acorn ridge that the guide didn't know was holdin acorns yet.

But I know for a fact he wasn't as fast as the little female I am talking about on track. That said she was only about a 20-25% cast winner in thin coon but that jumped up significantly in thick coon because her biggest fault was that she would hunt 30 minutes and check back in while my brothers male went till he got treed.

He was always fast about gettin a coon treed, wherever that was, but put them on a track together and she would beat him 90% of the time.

So he was much more consistant about gettin a coon treed no matter where you turned him out at, especially in thin coon, but she was a better and faster track dog.

Make sense?

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A pup trainer is a measuring stick as I suppose other dogs you hunt with consistently would be also.

Seems like coon or rabbit hunting there was always that one dog we listened for to assure us we were running the right game and also took the lead . Knowing your dog tells you what kind of track and or conditions you;re dealing with. If you're close enough to hear the dogs you can usually tell who's leading and lining a track out versus some that bark a lot while working around.

i have run what i believe to be the same coon 3 nights in a row now with multiple dogs each night... first night he went 8/10ths and got into a dozer windrow... second night ran thru a barn and lost him at 6/10ths in a cutover third night they ran him over a mile and we caught them crossing a road headed in to a freshly hit tornado blowdown that if they treed in i doubt they would have had him and that we could have got there if they did... the same dog led the track by the garmin all 3 nights and has had first tree on every other coon treed on in them 3 nights and also had last strike.... but as long as he keeps coming back to that silage pit i think i have one we can judge track speed on lol

quote:

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Originally posted by john Duemmer
A great track dog to me is the one that has his coon a high percentage of the time. Way to much credit is given to the good scorecard dogs that are consistent cast winners with 10 trees scored and 5 coon seen and 5 circled. FAST wins hunts, thats a fact of life as long as trees keep growing leaves, but to assume a first tree dog is a fast trackdog is flawed thinking. JMO

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quote:

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Originally posted by dustin15
I'd much rather have one tree slick than run all night. I can correct a dog from treeing slick a lot easier than one runnig all might....I like fast

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You're kidding right

If he is pulling up short how do you know how long it would take the dog to get treed. Some dogs aren't smart enough to check the tree. The first time a coon taps he's hung up and won't go on. Track dogs are born not made. I see a lot of posts on here about a dog can slick if he is fast. I need someone to explain this to me. How many have seen dogs that would pull to a started track and seem to take the track away and the dogs locate real close together and the one that pulled was called first. Then turn the dog by himself and he couldn't get one started on his own. I've seen dogs that were called track stars. It would be an old bad track and have one dog opening here and there. The others in the cast would get behind and then sound like they were about to catch the coon just getting back up with the lead dog. Then when the dog that ran the coon located the followers would explode on the tree and be called track dogs. A track dog to me is one that can consistently tree coons year round in all types of situations and terrains. It helps to be quick but if they can't put a coon at the end they might be running and treein tree frogs.

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David Disotell
(318) 288-1917

Re: The thing about track dogs.........

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
The tough part of judging track dogs is that there is basically no way to accurately measure tracking speed. We use our ears but our impressions from that are effected by a lot of other things that mess up those judgments. For instance a dog that uses a lot of mouth on track gives the impression of being a much faster track dog than one that is very tight mouthed. The same thing greatly effects how quick they get struck. A dog that never says a word until the track is straightened out and moving will give the impression of being a much slower to find a track than a loose mouth dog that opens at the first smell of scent even though the first dog may, in fact, being finding the track sooner. I think the only good way to judge a track dog requires you to have something to compare your dog to. It seems to me the easiest way to make such comparisons is simply which dog gets treed first AND HAS A COON because getting treed first without a coon can't tell you anything good about a dog. But if one dog consistently trees ahead of the rest, that dog HAS to be a faster track dog doesn't it? Even if you have a dog that likes to get off alone, you still have other dogs that will go to that dogs track when he opens and throw in with him on that track. And if a dog takes that track and trees ahead, you know that dogs has got to be faster on the track.
For all the bad someone may think about comp hunts, the fact remains that if you see a dog out there that is consistently getting more first trees PLUSSED, that dog is prolly a superior track dog. Bottom line, the dog that is getting there first with the meat is surely getting there the fastest too. First tree dog equals fast track dog.

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Matt Mays (205) 807-3046

quote:

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Originally posted by l.lyle
LOL. How are you going to correct a coon for running all night? That is a coons choice. If he won't follow a coon whever it goes he probably will tree slick among other things. Why can't he just give it up and come in if he knows he has been whipped. Why does he have to pull up on a tree and holler "come get me I'm Finished"? LOL Oh, you rather have a dog to pick off a slick tree. I get it.

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Tuff river kennels
Owned by: Dustin Marcum and Eddie Holliday
GR NITE CH 'PR' Tuff River Skinner(rip)
GR NITE CH PR' Tuff River Angel
GR NITE CH PKC CH PR' Tuff River Crank
RIP GR NITE CH PR' Marcum's Wild Solo (handler)

i really don't even know why i'm on here... i like a hot nose deep hunting dog that runs across hot tracks that they don't need to be a super track dog to tree

__________________
Tuff river kennels
Owned by: Dustin Marcum and Eddie Holliday
GR NITE CH 'PR' Tuff River Skinner(rip)
GR NITE CH PR' Tuff River Angel
GR NITE CH PKC CH PR' Tuff River Crank
RIP GR NITE CH PR' Marcum's Wild Solo (handler)

lol

LOL!!!!

A fast track dog on a good track is impressive. They run with the head up and will swing wide on a loose. I have seen those type hounds look terrible if the track isn't hot. In our country if a hound opens good on the ground and catches a few in the corn or soybeans there trying to run a track right. You'll go through many to find one that does this. Most don't have the ability or heart to get er done. Lots of folks will avoid crop fields because it turns into a boo tick event.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rip
I definately don't agree that chop mouth dogs are faster than bawl mouth dogs.

I agree.

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lol...This entire thread is proof of JiM's origional point.

A chop mouth might sound like it is really moving and tearing it up but inheirently faster? ....Seriously?

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This post proves what a friend and I discussed while hunting this weekend. Some people can hunt their entire lives and still have absolutely NO IDEA what a coondog is doing!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chris.S
This post proves what a friend and I discussed while hunting this weekend. Some people can hunt their entire lives and still have absolutely NO IDEA what a coondog is doing!

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__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
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AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Jim, I think to make that statement would be way too simplistic.

Way way too many variables. I believe it CAN mean that dog is a superior track dog, but I don't think it is synomous. Just depends on the style of that dog gettin treed the most and the conditions it's doin it in.


One of the fastest track dogs I ever seen was nearly silent, but some people thought the dog coudn't track or was hitchhiking and jumping in front to get a tree on dogs that were open mouthed.

A few corn field races showed them otherwise. That silent dog that folks thought was hichhiking was leading the race lots of times, just not saying anything.

Which goes to another old wives tale along the same line as "chop mouth dogs are faster". Many people think "silent dogs are faster track dogs". Mouth and track speed are two different things. I have seen good tracking silent dogs and I have seen poor tracking silent dogs same as I have chop mouth, bawl mouth etc.

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take it to a cornfield see how long it takes him to get it
out.

Well, Im on board wiith JiM on this.

Rip, you are darn sure right about many variables which is exactly why the dog that trees the coon first is the better track dog.

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quote:

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Originally posted by josh
Well, Im on board wiith JiM on this.

Rip, you are darn sure right about many variables which is exactly why the dog that trees the coon first is the better track dog.

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Geeze Rip, I thought this whole discussion was about dogs that are on the same track in the same area conistantly treeing ahead of other dogs.

Muddying the water with scenarios where we dont know the whole story is a poor way to judge anything.

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