UKC Forums - Best track dogs (Walker)

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Posted by rghnd123 on 06-27-2011 11:22 PM:

Braggin Hunt

Need to hold a hunt for the ones that get on here and down folks dogs. In ever thread you see the same ones down talking someones dog only to tell how great there's is. Funny thing about it though you never se them in front of the camera at the big hunts either. I like to call them wagon riders. There dog ain't nothing special but they saw a nice dog that resembled there so they earned some bragging rights too. I really don't care it just makes me laugh some times. Everyone wants the blow through the country type. The winner of the Louisiana state hunt this year doesn't get deep. 200 yards is deep for him. He had 625 plus and he don't miss. I don't own a hair on him so I can talk good about him. When the dog came in with the big score several said if I would have drawn that dog he wouldn't have beat me. Well everyone had two nights to bring in a better score. A dog can be super fast and blow through the country but if they ain't a coondog you still don't have anything.

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Posted by GES on 06-29-2011 04:01 AM:

Kler Kry, most folks have never seen dogs run track like the dogs Roy Jackson owned. Believe me when I tell you that the female I had off Lightning/Cookie was as good or better. I know Roy used a lot of Tinsley bred hounds and mixed them up with Kansas Mack which was of Dick Hershberger breeding I believe. He used Mack Twain influence, too, but then a lot of breeders used Mack in their foundation. I had a really good dog years ago that went back to 'Red' Dolans Champion x Mack Twain's Mo Sparkie from GrNt Arnold's Singing Maice x Finley River Chief for example. I always thought people that people have forgotten or never knew the influence Dick Hershberger, Herb Carsten, Roy Jackson, and Paul Tinsley had on Walker dogs. Roy Jackson could have won the world hunt at Lee's Summit in 1966 with his old female and he was closer than most will ever know, however, FR Spot won and John Monroe became a household name along with the 'Finley River' moniker. Herb Carsten lived and hunted the Finley River- not Monroe, but lots of folks don't even know who Herb Carsten is. I don't know where the tracking ability came from or where it has gone to, but my guess is that is did not come from a sire that has produced 5,000+ offspring or the dog with the best PAD. Nite Hunts favor tree ability over tracking and as long as breeders work toward winning hunts we will continue in the same direction. I am just a coonhunter and continue to judge dogs for what they are, not the titles they have or what I wish them to be. PS--I wouldn't want to go all the way back to when we had to beg them to stop and tree, but sure wish I had one that would drive the track to the tree. Best of luck with your hounds.

GES

Posted by GES on 06-29-2011 04:04 AM:

btt

top

Posted by burdette on 06-29-2011 10:37 AM:

HARDROCK id say it was his black n tan side

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Posted by Kler Kry on 06-29-2011 04:33 PM:

Best Trackdogs

GES,
What I've observed is that the best trackdogs are genetically recessive. You can spend a livetime maintaining it and loose it in one cross. That is why most people say that it is random and it is, but to maintain it both parents have to genetically possess it along with all the other traits that you are trying to maintain. I have also hunted with alot of sorry trackdogs that had the same pedigrees that you and Roy Jackson used.
I used to think that hunters were lieing about their dogs tracking abiliity, but what I came to realize was that most hunters have never seen a dogs like Roy Jacksons Sally and Sue or are too biased to recognize it if they seen it.
Mack Twain carried the genetics for outstanding tree and track dogs. Sure wish I knew someone that was smart enough and lucky enough to have maintained them.

Posted by jackbob42 on 06-29-2011 06:45 PM:

I think that a real track dog is about the least thing ever seen in coonhounds.
And a close second are the amount of people who have actually seen one ! LOL

I seen a dog take 10 minutes to run a coon in a 200 yard circle , out in a cornfield , and bring it back and tree it.
The guy who owned him was bragging about the "pressure" his dog was putting on that coon the whole race ! LOL

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Posted by Jason Baldwin on 06-29-2011 07:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jackbob42
I think that a real track dog is about the least thing ever seen in coonhounds.
And a close second are the amount of people who have actually seen one ! LOL

I seen a dog take 10 minutes to run a coon in a 200 yard circle , out in a cornfield , and bring it back and tree it.
The guy who owned him was bragging about the "pressure" his dog was putting on that coon the whole race ! LOL

A real track dog would not be running in no circle like that. THey would throw that nose up in the air and say to heck with the circle and just wind the coon and cut em off at the pass and cut and slash and have that coon treed in a minute before it knew what hit it.

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Posted by Two Toes on 06-29-2011 08:14 PM:

Re: Best Trackdogs

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry

I used to think that hunters were lieing about their dogs tracking abiliity, but what I came to realize was that most hunters have never seen a dogs like Roy Jacksons Sally and Sue or are too biased to recognize it if they seen it.

I am with you 100% in regards to folks not knowin what they REALLY have. Like most that have been around I've seen a pile of dogs go that was thought to be speed demon's & all that only to be dissapointed in the hype not living up to it.

"IF" they don't get around & hunt with different dogs they truly don't know like some responding to this thread. As has been said, the deep & alone thing don't mean squat in regards to track speed or ability to me. Thats a crazy nut job that I'm to gimped up to try to follow more than one dump. There was a time though I did it.

I personally am totally amazed with these new fang dangled garmin trackin gigs. You know who's straddlin it & grubbin as well as who's swingin on it & leavin the others mud holin behind. I have had both kinds. The leaf suckin can't pick their head up type I don't see anything about speed in? Also have & have had the kind that can run a track others can't smell,get it treed with the beef swingin & not take all night to do it.Unfortunately to many breed for the rules & not maintaining the true ability or even tryin. Then again some don't even know what they are breeding because of the standards they've had or witnessed. Until you have hunted with or preferably owned the true trackin type machines that get'er done & accurate without standin on their heads, I think its hard for some to fathum or fully understand/beleive.

Catchin coon on the ground consistently while runnin wide open impresses me. Not the "They run over'um" kind & incidental models. Talkin about gettin a track up & runnin & catchin them after smokin the hair off'n'um in the timber as well as your cornfeild/whatever models. Never cease's to amaze me how fast they can go cross rows in the corn. I've seen stretch's of catchin them go 20 nights in a row with up to 6 in one of them. Some don't consider that as much of a showing as far as ability but I beg to differ. Having witnessed it & the JUMBO old wise coon that where caught as well as all the tubes of super glue used to glue split ears,other rip's back together not to mention the Dr'n, I don't buy it. The nay sayers don't beleive because it don't happen where they may live largely due to lack of opportunity & decreased by the lack of coon.

Tracks in the snow showin them runnin 20 or 30 yards down wind of a track & up on the wheel in the process via the thermals & usin it to their advantage for cold trailin.Thats part of the package I'm lookin for. Our kill season is after Thanksgiving till mid February for us anyway. Others start mid October. Probably hunt in the snow in some god awful rough condition's as much as anybody & more than most. I always tell my boys,"Any dog can run a hot track to a tree but it takes a coondawg to tree them cold or old tracks". We put'um to the test & tree coon not tree's consistently. Got oodles of pictures of coon in hollow tree's. Some in such a small location ya gota scratch your head how it really got in there?

Without questions it is a more probable geographical location thing. Would it happen in the mountain's? Would it happen in swimmin waters or any other different terrain or regions of the country? Doubt it but they'd still be up on the wheel runnin'ta catch. We by no means have a major population but deffinately more than what some area's have.

I have gone thru 25 female pups in 5 years lookin for the rite ones I feel comfortable with & excite me about adding to our pedigree's. I have two of them,the last two I got.After tryin many different lines I went old school blood. Stuff known for their nose & trackin ability. One is a swingin,driftin,cheatin model. The other is hardcore full steam ahead thats got giddy'up that is a rare find in a total package.

"BUT"~Time will tell "IF" I really have what I think I have?

The dogs in any breed that can run off & leave the rest behind on yesterday's track are as hard to find as hen teeth. If you got it PLEASE maintain it! This gradual shift towards warmer nosed,babblin idiots that gota rocket in there straight linin till they run over one two miles away while passin up coon after coon in the process, is a bad trend~~~ "But"~~~ just my opinion,likes or dislikes. Ain't it great to have the ability to make up your own mind & pursue your own goals?

BALANCE,HEART,DESIRE,ACCURACY & "ABILITY". Always one better & ALWAYS plenty of room for improvement if you keep lookin down the road with both eye's open & are honest about what's needed to ATTEMPT to improve in the direction your hopin for. We'll never get PERFECT but at least we can try?

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Posted by rghnd123 on 06-29-2011 09:13 PM:

TwoToes

That was well said. Don't seem like nobody wants the ones like you described. That deep and lonely don't impress me much either. I like to see and hear a race after the coon. That's competition.

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Posted by GES on 06-30-2011 01:33 AM:

Re: Best Trackdogs

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry
GES,
Sure wish I knew someone that was smart enough and lucky enough to have maintained them.

The not so funny thing is that when I had it, I didn't want it! I wanted one of those stand on the wood, 130bpm, one bark locate tree dogs! And was willing to give up a driving track dog to get it.........the truth hurts sometimes! I guess all we can do is try to share the knowledge we have about some of the track dogs of the past and do what we can to improve the abilities that each of us deem most important. Coonhunters could also learn a lot about tracking from watching coyote hounds. They work as a pack and you can quickly see the style of different hounds. You can see how different styles excel under certain conditions, but a really top track dog is always at the front. Again, it takes more than a good nose to push a coyote for miles and do it for days in a row. It takes drive, too.

Off topic--Kler Kry, would you be Ken Risley(sp?) that owned the Kleer Kry Rowdy dog that was at stud at one time? Always thought he had an interesting pedigree, but never tried a pup from him.

GES

Posted by Kler Kry on 06-30-2011 02:57 PM:

Trackdogs

Klear Kry is my Kennel name. I'm Ken Risley.
Ive got more fingers than I've seen outstanding trackdogs in my 62 years and I've hunted alot of dogs. At my age one of mine favorite things to do is help others. I'm not an authority. I've raised more worthless dogs than most people, but I've been blessed with a few good ones. My only reason for commenting on here is to save someone from making some of the same mistakes that I made.

Trackdogs:
One thing that always amuses me is that when someone says they have a top trackdog I usually ask them what percentage of thier dogs strikes do they catch on the ground? They usually can't remember the last time it happened.
I'm 62 years old and can still outrun a coon in a cut hay field. I can not outrun a dog. What percentage of strikes should a top trackdog catch on the ground in farm country?

Posted by POTOMAC on 06-30-2011 03:06 PM:

It's all relative to the area andthecoon population,I will put down 1000$ and give the owner a place to stay and good place to hunt and one they won't catch no coon here on the ground and second I'll bet that there's no one that can squall a coon hereconsistantly just to make them look! They don't have to come out of the den are run all overthetreee,just look! I've been hunting all over the us and can.endgame at home is the toughest I've seen,not saying it's harder thaneverywhere but the stuff that happens on tv don't happen here,I would love to see these top cooncatchers and coon squallers at work.pmme for info,thamks

Posted by Dan Dogs on 06-30-2011 04:15 PM:

Re: Trackdogs

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry
Klear Kry is my Kennel name. I'm Ken Risley.
Ive got more fingers than I've seen outstanding trackdogs in my 62 years and I've hunted alot of dogs. At my age one of mine favorite things to do is help others. I'm not an authority. I've raised more worthless dogs than most people, but I've been blessed with a few good ones. My only reason for commenting on here is to save someone from making some of the same mistakes that I made.

Trackdogs:
One thing that always amuses me is that when someone says they have a top trackdog I usually ask them what percentage of thier dogs strikes do they catch on the ground? They usually can't remember the last time it happened.
I'm 62 years old and can still outrun a coon in a cut hay field. I can not outrun a dog. What percentage of strikes should a top trackdog catch on the ground in farm country?

ken, how much of a head start did the coon give ya!!!LOL you wont out run any coon around here unless they were born this spring!!LOL i want to see this, but bring your own oxygen tanks so you can make it back to the truck after i turn you out on a road coon!!!LMAO

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Posted by Jason Baldwin on 06-30-2011 04:49 PM:

Re: Trackdogs

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry
Klear Kry is my Kennel name. I'm Ken Risley.
Ive got more fingers than I've seen outstanding trackdogs in my 62 years and I've hunted alot of dogs. At my age one of mine favorite things to do is help others. I'm not an authority. I've raised more worthless dogs than most people, but I've been blessed with a few good ones. My only reason for commenting on here is to save someone from making some of the same mistakes that I made.

Trackdogs:
One thing that always amuses me is that when someone says they have a top trackdog I usually ask them what percentage of thier dogs strikes do they catch on the ground? They usually can't remember the last time it happened.
I'm 62 years old and can still outrun a coon in a cut hay field. I can not outrun a dog. What percentage of strikes should a top trackdog catch on the ground in farm country?

that's the key word "in farm country". how bout a blackberry patch, can you outrun one through a blackberry patch ? how bout a thick box-wood ? how bout straight up a ridge so steep your stareing at the moon straight up above your head digging into dirt with your fingers hopeing you don't start slideing backwards ? could you outrun one like that ? I been coonhunting 16 years with ALL types of different dogs owned by ALL types of different people. Never, i say never, have i ever even seen a dog catch a coon on the ground. Anyone's dog. Ever.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 06-30-2011 05:47 PM:

my dogs catch a few every yr. but they are usually big boars that refuse to climb..they make a mistake and try to run a creek or cut across open ground. then its crunch time!!!

Posted by Diggerman on 06-30-2011 07:05 PM:

Most I catch are in a creek or in a corn field, but not all that often. although I do have a friend that has a track dog that is so fast, it consistantly beats the coon to the tree.

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Posted by Two Toes on 06-30-2011 07:13 PM:

"WHAT EVER"

I know plenty of locations where it would rarely if ever happen thats why the comment in regards to GEOGRAPHICAL locations. "BUT",what I am sayin is it happens here.

My next question would be, how many & how often it happens with others ~**that live in this same kinda country?**~??? One fella I know with walkerdawgs talks of catchin some & he's known for havin some good hounds for a lot of years. Otherwise it is rarely heard. So my question now is are our coon to fat & slow like me "BUT"~ in the NEXT COUNTY they wear Nike's & spandex? We put coon in the bluffs just about every night "BUT"~ some of them get caught before they get all the way home & plenty within feet of it in the timber while the dogs are screamin wide open.

Not sayin it is a nitely thing but there are streaks where it does largely in the fall, happen. We had a guest one night when they caught six but one got away & got into a hole in the base of a tree. Them dawgs would get smokin so fast it didn't seem possable in them cornfeilds. Others have turned loose with us & oddly they spend most of their time shuttin up & cuttin to them to catch up only to be dusted again. They will eventually get there to chew on the already dead 25 lb coons after an hour race.

These boo hoo'n Bludawgs been known for several years & generations for bein honest 1st & 1st dawgs in the hunts. Not everyone of course but more than not. ALSO for bein extremely accurate.+225 is what I been breedin for for 33 yrs along with huntin where their turned loose along with NOT skippin the country is along with NO FANGIN! Pretty hard to get a pup from us cuz we ain't in it for numbers of nothin but we are to have replacements & the next generation for US to enjoy when we feel its time. Eight females & have bred one & debated doin that. Last two litters where a year apart. Don't poke & hope. Lota thought,researchin & experience goes into it along with huntin what we raise.

No way we can compare the land of bluffs & farmland with a decent coon population to the mountains in West Virginia,the prairies of kansas & Oklahoma or chase them lil squirrel type coon in Florida. Not to mention the land of +1,800 every hunt. Curious how many get caught in the land of a coon in every other tree actually?

Anal to even try on my end or anyone elses. We all have the option of lookin at things in our own way & formin our own opinion on what we see & what we like. NOT gettin into the "COME HUNT MY GROUND BS". Find some other chip on the shoulder type to work with ya. Check with the third graders first.

I have line bred & made cross' for one reason & that is to attempt to get one better than their parents in some form or another.My foundation won Autumn Oaks when I was 18 against Spring Creek Black Jack,Weasel's Billy & Tennessee Lead. A fluke to win by +500 I'm sure but thats where it started with them mud holin in the beans while mine left them in the dust & scored on two alone. I have yet to get drastic in search of sumthin different because mine have lost the ability. Yes we add some outside influence but ONLY if they make the grade & their ancestory as well.

I am missin a few fingers but in my eye's I've owned more above average special hounds than what I got in booger pickers. Males & females that are in our pedigree's & some multiple times.

DO I CARE IF ANYBODY ELSE AGREE WITH ME? Ya see I Really don't care one iota. None,nota! What I hunt you might cull & what you hunt I may do the same.

Biggest thing is to enjoy what YOU hunt & if ya need help in the breedin pen,find it "IF" ya wana of course! "IF" it don't work out,be a responsable breeder lookin out for YOUR breed of choice.Tunnel vision & coondawgs just don't work together & I'll be the first to say it.

Posted by Two Toes on 06-30-2011 07:22 PM:

Re: Re: Trackdogs

quote:
Originally posted by Jason Baldwin
that's the key word "in farm country". how bout a blackberry patch, can you outrun one through a blackberry patch ? how bout a thick box-wood ? how bout straight up a ridge so steep your stareing at the moon straight up above your head digging into dirt with your fingers hopeing you don't start slideing backwards ? could you outrun one like that ? I been coonhunting 16 years with ALL types of different dogs owned by ALL types of different people. Never, i say never, have i ever even seen a dog catch a coon on the ground. Anyone's dog. Ever.

Thats to bad I guess isn't it?? Maybe ya need some speed if you've went 16 yrs & not seen one,EVER,caught? Relavency? Did you read the whole post? Even a blind pig can run into an acorn every now & then. We ain't got no golf course' to hunt but you'll get some climbin in & at times your finger nails dug in as well.

Posted by Two Toes on 06-30-2011 07:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Diggerman
Most I catch are in a creek or in a corn field, but not all that often. although I do have a friend that has a track dog that is so fast, it consistantly beats the coon to the tree.

Thats fast...LOL!!

Posted by rghnd123 on 06-30-2011 07:49 PM:

THINGS OF THE PAST

Tracking ability is going to be a thing of the past. Its all about the tree. Nobody wants to cut loose and hear the dogs run into the tree. I like going with 4 or 5 dogs and see which one can get in the lead and stay there. If you ain't been in the woods with a consistently fast dog you won't have any idea what one is. I read post where people would like to see strike position eliminated. A dog striking and running a coon is just as important as picking the right tree. Maybe the night hunts need to turn into a treeing contest. Turn out in a big coon pen and let your dog rattle em off. Russ I have not been in the woods with a one of your dogs. I do not doubt your word one bit. I myself though haven't seen many true track dogs that could consistently catch. I used to think our thickets were too bad for a dog to catch a coon. Until I saw a dog that could run one down. Just because it hasn't been seen in the last few years doesn't mean its impossible. That just helps those old folks(LOL) make there point. We are loosing tracking ability with thes super hyped up tree dogs. Good luck to ya Russ and your gonna have to come off of some of that good blood or we might not ever get a track dog. I have heard a lot of good things about your line and there blue. What's up with that.

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Posted by Diggerman on 06-30-2011 08:06 PM:

Well Dave , It's not a thing of the past. You just got to get past this dual grand this and dual grand that. Come bear huntin or cat huntin sometime,there is a whole gene pool that hasn't been dual granded. Don't get me wrong, I like ukc hunts, and I got a coondog to hunt in them, but for what you want you have to think outside the box. Some of the best lines are not promoted and you have to look for them.

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Posted by rghnd123 on 06-30-2011 08:27 PM:

Diggerman

I am not saying they are all gone. I am just saying seems like they are on there way out with the way some of these dogs are being bred up with the tree. Titles don't mean nothing to either. Don't get me wrong I love to go to the hunts I just don't believe a dog has to be a Grangnite to be a coondog. I am no breeder by no means and don't want to be classified as one. I know what I want for myself will I get what I want I don't know. Am I gonna raise a bunch of pups in hopes, no. I am gonna make crosses from dogs that I know can do it and have been there to witness it. I made a cross a year ago that is showing some nice prospects. Will they make coondogs I don't know. If they don't I will try something different. I will not own a puppy mill or make a bunch of crosses I just hope to keep me one that pleases me.

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Posted by GES on 07-01-2011 02:37 AM:

Re: Trackdogs

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry

Ive got more fingers than I've seen outstanding trackdogs in my 62 years and I've hunted alot of dogs. At my age one of mine favorite things to do is help others. I'm not an authority. I've raised more worthless dogs than most people, but I've been blessed with a few good ones. My only reason for commenting on here is to save someone from making some of the same mistakes that I made.

Ken, for a minute I thought we were twins seperated at birth except I'm only 44 and I've probably had more worthless dogs! LOL! I must also admit that once I figured out I didn't know everything and started really paying attention, the dog on the end of my lead was a whole lot better than the ones I started out with. Many of the guys that freely gave me advice really just fed me hype--big talkers with stud dogs or pups for sale. Some of the folks that I sought out and asked questions of gave me some good info. For example, Marion Brock taught me a lot about pedigrees and was quite a study of hound genetics. Terry Daniel and Howard Thompson taught me a lot about hounds, too. While I didn't agree with them on every thought, I considered what they said as I studied what I had and where I wanted to go.

I have enjoyed the information that you, 'rghnd 123', and 'two toes' have shared on this post. I learned something and now have more information to study while planning the next cross and evaluating the next hound I fool with. Thanks guys!

GES

Posted by Jason Baldwin on 07-01-2011 02:53 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Trackdogs

quote:
Originally posted by Two Toes
Thats to bad I guess isn't it?? Maybe ya need some speed if you've went 16 yrs & not seen one,EVER,caught? Relavency? Did you read the whole post? Even a blind pig can run into an acorn every now & then. We ain't got no golf course' to hunt but you'll get some climbin in & at times your finger nails dug in as well.

Guess all i have ever been to the woods with is culls. Thanks for the info sir.

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Posted by GLANCY'S 7 MILE on 07-01-2011 04:18 AM:

"It's not a thing of the past. You just got to get past this dual grand this and dual grand that," You nailed it on the head DIGGERMAN! I've been hunting with way to many GRNITECH's that couldn't run a biscuit accross the floor. Not saying that all GRNITECH's are like this but I've seen alot that were. Don't get me wrong I like a titled dog, and a dog with a good set of papers, but PAPERS DON'T TREE COONS.

Everyone has a different definition of a track dog but IMO a track dog can run a hott, medium, or cold track quickly and doesn't spend all night doing it, hit's the first track it comes accross, and is accurate and consisent about having a coon.

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