UKC Forums - why no countdown on tree?

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-- why no countdown on tree? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=412688)

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 03-11-2011 10:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lights out
Jim you hit the nail on the head!!!! Nuff said!! If you got a dog that backs after the 2 it needs a .22 in the back of the head! Boys need to start culling these me 2 dogs. I dont know Jim from adam but his post is right on.

Well this is a little drastic. Hunters have every right to hunt dogs that cover after 2 minutes but they sure as heck should only get 25 on the tree. I have seen dogs casted off a tree that was just scored and run several hundred yards to cover a treed dog and make it before the tree is dead ann then they get awarded with 75. If you call that right your pretty clueless when it comes to proving who has the best dog. That's what the hunts are for!

Posted by josh on 03-11-2011 11:15 PM:

Well, I have hunted registrys that have a countdown and I still see the same dogs win.

If my dog covers, I will gladly only take responsability for 25........Probably slick anyway.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 03-12-2011 01:07 AM:

So what do you think about my last senario josh?

Posted by elvis on 03-12-2011 01:14 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I'm not smart enough to make long term preductions about how a rule change will effect handlers, breeders or dogs. But I do know this much. When a dog rolls up on a tree 2 minutes or more after the coon was treed, you can be absolutely sure that dog didn't trail no track into that tree and it didn't have anything to do with the treeing of that coon. When a dog rolls up 2 minutes or more after the 5 is started, that dog didn't anything except run to a treed dog. And that isn't something deserving of 75 tree points to my way of thinking.

Never claimed to be very smart, just stateing the obvious.

I believe the dog that quits his track and runs to a treed dog 2 minutes late deserves 75-

I also believe if this dog beats me, I deserve to be beat.

Posted by HOBO on 03-12-2011 01:16 AM:

I can't believe you all are still talking abut this.

HOW many times do we have to have a post about this? Seems every couple of months this comes up. There's more than one kennel club holding hunts. Why not just hunt the one you like the most and stop trying to make them all the same??????

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 03-12-2011 01:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
I can't believe you all are still talking abut this.

HOW many times do we have to have a post about this? Seems every couple of months this comes up. There's more than one kennel club holding hunts. Why not just hunt the one you like the most and stop trying to make them all the same??????

Simple answer! Because they ALL should be about awarding the best dog on that particular night. A countdown does nothing but take away tree points from dogs that don't deserve them. Its okay people sometimes change is a good thing.

Posted by Bill(Chew) on 03-12-2011 05:30 AM:

Count down tree points is, IMHO, not about rewarding the quickest tree dog but is more about a bigger point spread to brag about. You want a count down to give you more points and the others fewer points, that way you can brag about how bad you beat the others.

PKC uses the countdown because they have more one hour hunts than two hour hunts. The point spread means fewer ties. Most two hour hunts have few ties.

You ask how can it hurt the future hounds? When UKC upped the first tree to 125 points the dogs were bred to tree faster.Not entirely a bad or good thing. We now have better tree dogs but also have more slick treeing idiots. We are also lacking in track power in many lines. Now you are breeding dogs that won't work with another dog. Is the dog good? How can you tell? They won't compete on the same track with another dog so how do you measure it? Don't say it trees more coon, it may just have better tracks.

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Posted by sdhank08 on 03-14-2011 01:52 AM:

there is another rule thats stuck in the back of my mind that if the tree is dead and another dog comes in to the tree and starts to tree and and a coon is seen he gets minused but he comes in after 5 min and trees and its slick tthe covering dog dont get nothing which i think is crap......

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 03-14-2011 12:44 PM:

I have seen dogs casted off a tree that was just scored and run several hundred yards to cover a treed dog and make it before the tree is dead and then they get awarded with 75 tree points.

HOW IS THAT RIGHT? It happens all the times not just once in a while.

Posted by K. Singletary on 03-14-2011 02:15 PM:

I'm not in favor of a countdown because it is used more often that not by the handler to avoid potential minus points. I would be in favor of closing the tree in 2 or 3 minutes rather than 5 minutes, with the cast remaining stationary once a tree call has been made. I think this could address the late cover dog and also remove handler manipulation of the score.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 03-14-2011 02:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
I'm not in favor of a countdown because it is used more often that not by the handler to avoid potential minus points. I would be in favor of closing the tree in 2 or 3 minutes rather than 5 minutes, with the cast remaining stationary once a tree call has been made. I think this could address the late cover dog and also remove handler manipulation of the score.

You avoided my question.

Posted by K. Singletary on 03-14-2011 03:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
You avoided my question.

I was responding to the thread, not your question.

To answer your question, I've never seen a dog released off of a tree and cover another dog before the 5 is up, not saying it can't happen, but I am saying that it is so rare for that to happen that we shouldn't design a rule to address that, IMO.

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Posted by JiM on 03-14-2011 03:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
I'm not in favor of a countdown because it is used more often that not by the handler to avoid potential minus points.

Kenny, I don't think it is used that way all that much. In fact, hunting alot of PKC/AKC, I haven't seen the rule "used" much at all. It is what it is. Very simply, they cover very quickly or they cover for not much. That is the way it should be.

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Posted by K. Singletary on 03-14-2011 03:44 PM:

Well judgeing in another regsitries world hunt for the last several years what I've seen from the pros is if their dog does not tree 1st they wait and take the 25 almost every time. When I'm hunting in the other registries, if my dog is not treed within 30 seconds of the 1st dog treed I will always wait and take the 25.

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Posted by on 03-14-2011 03:51 PM:

I think JiM and elvis both bring up some very valid points.

I think JiM is correct in saying, a dog covering a tree after 2 minutes, surely doesn't deserve any plus points for simply covering a treed dog... and that's exactly what it did.

I also don't see a declining tree being used a handler tool that often. I'm sure it happens, especially in thin coon. I don't see a handler waiting to tree for 25 in a declining tree format nearly as much as I see handlers pitching for 75 in the UKC format.

But elvis, brings up some valid concerns. I'm a big fan of an independent tree dog, but in many cases independence can cover up a slow track dog. Having speed and 1st tree is independence to its truest form. That said, independence and off by itself is a lot easier to achieve. Elvis concerns are why I value hounds that can win in each registry. I'll still take a dog that will tree a coon off to itself while yours is sharing coons with company.

Posted by on 03-14-2011 03:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
Well, I have hunted registrys that have a countdown and I still see the same dogs win.

If my dog covers, I will gladly only take responsability for 25........Probably slick anyway.

When I think of a few guys and a few dogs that win plenty of UKC hunts by being a quick strike dog, me-tooing 2nd tree dog, and typically very circle tree happy, I think of why I like a declining tree. That said, I've never seen any of them even enter another registry's events. So I can't agree that the same dogs win.

Posted by on 03-14-2011 04:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
I can't believe you all are still talking abut this.

HOW many times do we have to have a post about this? Seems every couple of months this comes up. There's more than one kennel club holding hunts. Why not just hunt the one you like the most and stop trying to make them all the same??????

Agree 100%

Posted by josh on 03-14-2011 04:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by brogy
When I think of a few guys and a few dogs that win plenty of UKC hunts by being a quick strike dog, me-tooing 2nd tree dog, and typically very circle tree happy, I think of why I like a declining tree. That said, I've never seen any of them even enter another registry's events. So I can't agree that the same dogs win.

I know what your saying Marc....

I guess I was just thinking a dog that wins a _KC cast would probably win under UKC rules as well.

Those quick cover dogs are still going to be in for 75 regaurdless.....A good cover dog can make a lot of tracks in 1 minnute.

Posted by on 03-14-2011 04:20 PM:

I agree with that.

I believe a good dog can win its share in any registry.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 03-14-2011 04:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
Well judgeing in another regsitries world hunt for the last several years what I've seen from the pros is if their dog does not tree 1st they wait and take the 25 almost every time. When I'm hunting in the other registries, if my dog is not treed within 30 seconds of the 1st dog treed I will always wait and take the 25.

We aren't talking about handlers of world hunts in the other kennel clubs. Many Handlers are paid to handle in those. You better bet they know what's going on. We are talking about your average UKC handler.

Posted by josh on 03-14-2011 04:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
Well judgeing in another regsitries world hunt for the last several years what I've seen from the pros is if their dog does not tree 1st they wait and take the 25 almost every time. When I'm hunting in the other registries, if my dog is not treed within 30 seconds of the 1st dog treed I will always wait and take the 25.

+1.....

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