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Gentlemen I appreciate the information you have given about the Ray dogs. Maybe I could trouble you for just a little more. I just want to clarify my previous question as I am not sure I stated it clear enough to begin with. Like I said before, I take my bear hunting very serious and hunt harder than anyone I know. I have treed plenty of game in my life and treed 159 bears this year in 2015. I don't have any problems putting bears in a tree and I own dogs that do a very nice job of it but what I am specificly looking for is dogs that excel on hard to catch running bears. Bears that start to run and don't stop to look back. It is my experience out here in Idaho, that near the 3 hour mark, on a hard running bear is when I see dogs starting to string out and the cream rises to the top. Some dogs (few) have something in their genetic make up that has provided them with a bigger gas tank than most. I like to say that when the going gets tough the tough get going. I know it is not a matter of drive because i have had plenty with incredible game drive but just were not blessed with that extra gear in a long hard race. In the last 15 years I have owned 3 that lived up to the standard I am looking for but they were grade dogs of unknown ancestry, so no possibility of tapping into those blood lines. 2 were females which were acquired at 6 and 10 months and both were spayed so I had no opportunity to breed them. Not that they could have reproduced their kind anyways. Point is, finding the qualities I am looking for has been hit and miss at best and I am trying to find someone in this country who is consistently producing hounds of the caliber I know exist but so far not been able to find with any regularity. Like I said in my previous post, I hate getting out ran !!! It doesn't happen a lot but more than I want it to. Soo, do you guys thing the Ray dogs have a little more in the gas tank than most ?

You certainly can't go wrong by trying some. Every litter I see one or two that really excell. In mine I see a very high percentage that make the grade of above average hounds. That said I don't know if they are gonna add u anything u don't have when you are catching those kinds of numbers in that rugged country.

__________________
Wild Spirit Big Game Hounds
English Big Game, is the only language we speak in our country!!
Dan and Jonathan Kirschner
906-250-0089
Upper MI

U will never know unless u try them n compare heads up. They r the best I've found in 20yrs . if I run into somethin better I'll be feedin them instead . they have what it takes to catch game n it doesnt take em all day. Very tuff hounds. Since I've owned them its a very rare occasion (surprise) that a bear gets away when they get in shape. Never seen these hounds get out trailed by another line or breed n seen them jump game behind others alot. Never seen them out run consistently by another line or breed , have seen it the other way around consistently. Tuffest footed hound I've seen. These r my veiws n opinions on the hounds I've seen n the turf I've hunted. There's a lot of places I haven't hunted. N there's hounds I haven't hunting with but I wouldn't hesitate to put them down with anything in any part of the country. Tryin to answer ur questions best I can from my expieriances with this line of hound .

__________________
TNT KENNELS
RAY Bred Blues

quote:

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Originally posted by kirschner
You certainly can't go wrong by trying some. Every litter I see one or two that really excell. In mine I see a very high percentage that make the grade of above average hounds. That said I don't know if they are gonna add u anything u don't have when you are catching those kinds of numbers in that rugged country.

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__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Thank you for the added advice. If I was wanting to try them, where would you recommend I get one ? One more question. What kind of mouths to they typically have ?

silent cold trailers with good speed after the jump would certainly cut down on most running bear situations if you could find those type dogs.some bear i think are running hard before a dog even hits the ground just from our activity in the area.that kind of lead is alot for even a great hound to overcome.i bet it happens more than you would think.

If I was concerned primarily about putting speed and stamina in a line of trailing dogs, I would inject a little running dog blood in them, Trigg or running walker.
Adios,
Gary

Hey dumpthebox give me a call in the evening I'll get you some names and numbers. We finally got snow so well be hunting during the day. Dan 906-250-0089

__________________
Wild Spirit Big Game Hounds
English Big Game, is the only language we speak in our country!!
Dan and Jonathan Kirschner
906-250-0089
Upper MI

I would have to disagree with you on that Kordog. I think silent cold trailers would give you more running bear situations, not less. Bear hunting is a team sport. I have treed plenty of bears with one or two dogs but your best success is going to be with a pack that runs together. A pack all arriving at a bear together is much more intimidating than one or two. Having one dog out in front of the rest is definitely a recipe for longer races. It is my belief that the moment bear and dogs meet often determines what a race is going to be like. If a bear is swarmed immediately the hounds often win the psychological battle right at the beginning and a bear will climb quickly but if a bear meets one or two dogs first and is allowed to gain confidence then you might be in for a long day. All that being said, silent cold trailers would have a tendency to get alone or stretched out because dogs wouldn't hark to each other. When you have 5 or 6 dogs working in concert on a cold trail your success on bears is going to be much better. The only way that happens is if the dog that finds the track hollars and says, "here it is boys, I got the track". If a pack of silent trailers are all moving out on a track together, it most likely isn't a cold track.

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Roberson
If I was concerned primarily about putting speed and stamina in a line of trailing dogs, I would inject a little running dog blood in them, Trigg or running walker.
Adios,
Gary

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Rueben- from what I've seen n heard from others they're pretty rough on a hog.

Dumpthebox- alot of these hounds have loud , rough, squally bawls. Pretty unique . I have a couple n some others have a few with chop mouths also.
How do u get some? Well u could go 2 different routes. There are a few of us that r hunting , breeding the same blood as Ray has n only breed when we need pups. I sell what i don't keep n try n get them in guys that hunt hard hands. Selective where they go , dont ever want to have to compete against any1 with this line of hound. don't breed just to sell. So not alot of opportunity to get 1 n pretty long waiting list. There are also guys around that have Ray blood in there hounds if that's something u were interested in . mite b another way but just bred a little different.

__________________
TNT KENNELS
RAY Bred Blues

quote:

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Originally posted by dumpthebox
I would have to disagree with you on that Kordog. I think silent cold trailers would give you more running bear situations, not less. Bear hunting is a team sport. I have treed plenty of bears with one or two dogs but your best success is going to be with a pack that runs together. A pack all arriving at a bear together is much more intimidating than one or two. Having one dog out in front of the rest is definitely a recipe for longer races. It is my belief that the moment bear and dogs meet often determines what a race is going to be like. If a bear is swarmed immediately the hounds often win the psychological battle right at the beginning and a bear will climb quickly but if a bear meets one or two dogs first and is allowed to gain confidence then you might be in for a long day. All that being said, silent cold trailers would have a tendency to get alone or stretched out because dogs wouldn't hark to each other. When you have 5 or 6 dogs working in concert on a cold trail your success on bears is going to be much better. The only way that happens is if the dog that finds the track hollars and says, "here it is boys, I got the track". If a pack of silent trailers are all moving out on a track together, it most likely isn't a cold track.

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i dont think your gonna find what your looking for which is perfection from the sounds.i hope you dont find what your looking for ,and i mean that in the best possible way.if the bear doesnt win sometimes your gonna be one bored bear hunter after awhile lol.

When a good dog or pack of dogs r in shape the bear should never win. I'm not very happy if it does .

__________________
TNT KENNELS
RAY Bred Blues

This thread has been very interesting to me...I have some 1/2 Pocahontas Plott pups that I have high hopes for in the 4 I have kept. the other 1/2 is 1/4 kemmer 1/8 redbone and 1/8 pitbull strictly for hog dogs but I like reading about all big game hunting dogs...I can see that many of you are very experienced in the dogs you hunt as well as the game...

I read a few post on here that mentioned, I'll put my dogs down with any one's...another...they stack up well against any other pack etc...

And then a post that mentions perfection and most will agree that there is no such thing as perfect dogs...

for many years I have thought long and hard on perfection in a pack of dogs...there might not be perfection, true...I once thought there was such a thing in certain packs...and lean more towards that concept when I see it...

there are packs of dogs that tend to be at the very top when it comes to nose, trailing, the ability to find game, stick with it no matter what and produce a high percentage of game...those that know hunting dogs know it when they see outstanding dogs at work regardless of who owns them...

some might say they aren't the best in certain terrains but day in and day out they probably will be the best in most terrains...a well balanced great hunting dog is just that in my opinion...
the definition of perfection for many is something that is not achievable...

for others there is such a thing as perfection...in my minds eye, it is a logical standard that many dogs can not achieve...yet the special ones do...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

if i caught every bear all the time i would deffinately get a little bored after awhile.it would still be enjoyable ,but somehow diminished without more of a challenge.to each their own.

Rueben, I missed your question bout our dogs being hog hunted. When it was legal here in MI I kept a large training pen and started all my young dogs on Russians. They did very well and we did travel south a few times and they did equally well there also.

__________________
Wild Spirit Big Game Hounds
English Big Game, is the only language we speak in our country!!
Dan and Jonathan Kirschner
906-250-0089
Upper MI

I like to think I have been producing some pretty nice hounds. I am pretty impressed with what I got. They are getting a little more tree minded and by that I mean stand on the tree. Im not a big fan of a stand up tree dog in packs, as problems can start, especially the more males there are.

I mostly hunt females these days. I have some nice males, but I prefer to hunt mostly females with one male in the pack. They are far from perfect, but I sure like'em. Nice track, pressure dogs that are nice running dogs with a big motors, big volume, tons of grit, and most make natural strike dogs.

I have been breeding them for 20 plus yrs, never flooded the market with dogs, hunted what I bred and bred what I hunted. I learned alot, and made alot of mistakes. I have had a bunch of fun and I hunt mainly by myself with 4 to 5 dogs. Sometimes my dogs catch the bear, sometimes the bear catches my dogs. It's has been a spendy sport, and sometimes when things don't go right and I think of all the money, time and effort I have wasted, then reality sets back in if I live to be 100 I will have one of these old pot licking Blueticks by my side and I will be smiling ear to ear, cause it will remind me of all the nice dogs that I have had.

I have seen my dogs trail a bear that I know they can't smell by sight of a print in the snow, I have seen cold nosed dogs that couldn't smell a fresh track, have seen dogs that run the exact path a bear went, and I have seen dogs run 15 feet off a track. Seems like some bear put off alot of scent and some don't, conditions and time of yr play a big part of it. All of the dogs mentioned above and I currently have run to catch and apply pressure, I have been very lucky over the yrs keeping quality dogs that produce the same.

If anyone wants a pup, or dog, well I don't have any, and I don't expect to have any for a while. I got all I need now, this may change but not anytime soon.

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Rocklynn Phillips
Kardinal Kennels


Pups and started dogs available from time to time.

Have any of you fellers that run the ray dogs ever try them on coon?

My idea of a coon hound n a bear hound r not the same. Where I'm from here in Michigan there r lots of coon. I have coon hunted all my life till bout 5 yrs ago pleasure hunted n a lot of comp. Hunting n handling hounds.

In a coon dog I would look for these traits . Medium nosed hound that when was cut loose would punch a hole in the dark, get struck , drive a track, locate n throw its chest on tree n go to hammerin . b very accurate n go as far as needed to find a coon. Doesn't need to b gritty.

In a bear hound I want very cold nosed hounds that will get down n grub a track if needed n throw there head in the air n run to catch when jumped. Very tough hounds with tough feet for day after day of runnin miles. Hounds with a good combination of brains n grit to pinch a bear n not get killed. N the heart to keep going back for more when they get hit n bit. To stay with a bear on the ground . when treed I don't have to have a belly rubbin tree dog, they need to stay treed n keep the bear up.
Some guys like a little colder nosed coon dog if in thin coon.
I wouldnt hunt Ray blood on coon but its up to the guy that feeds it. I haven't ever sold a pup that wasn't gonna b hunted on bear.

__________________
TNT KENNELS
RAY Bred Blues

We have had couple that have made great coon dogs, but not competition dogs. I have one in the hands of a group that has over 60 years of coon hunting experience and they believe this male is the best they have ever owned. I know also the dogs that have been coon hunted.first make much better cat.dogs than the sloppy track dogs that are bear hunted first. Mine are only half Ray blood so I can't say for sure how a pure one would work on coon.

__________________
Wild Spirit Big Game Hounds
English Big Game, is the only language we speak in our country!!
Dan and Jonathan Kirschner
906-250-0089
Upper MI

I live right on the New York and Pennsylvania line. In New York we can train for bear but not kill and the training season for bear is not too long. We do have an abundance of bobcats in the area. Pennsylvania you can't run bear at all. But you can train on bobcats 365. But there is a kill season on them too. We don't have a great coon population like in Ohio or Indiana or Michigan. I would classify our area as thin. The very best night I had we treed 7 coon. And made about 12-15 drops. We don't have the farms in our area that we used to. And there are a lot of coyotes.

So now my interest has peaked on how they do on bobcats or coyotes. I have a bluetick that will take a bobcat track once in a while but not real common for her to do so.

I just started yote hunting this week and its a blast. The dogs love them and are doing great. Every dog I have ever had out of Mr Rays blood was hard to brake on yotes, they love um for sure.

__________________
Wild Spirit Big Game Hounds
English Big Game, is the only language we speak in our country!!
Dan and Jonathan Kirschner
906-250-0089
Upper MI

Sounds like I'll either be asking forgiveness from the wife or permission for 2-4 more dogs!!!!!

The forgiveness, if its like my house is much easier.

__________________
Wild Spirit Big Game Hounds
English Big Game, is the only language we speak in our country!!
Dan and Jonathan Kirschner
906-250-0089
Upper MI