UKC Forums - Night Hunt Question:

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-- Night Hunt Question: (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=368505)

Posted by Rip on 08-08-2010 09:31 PM:

CWS, go back and read the responses here. Especially John D. He has a very good point.

There are many reasons why the guy may have wanted his points officially scored. Who knows. He could have just been a jerk too.

Those are beside the point. The point is the dog was treed during hunt time, and if he, who paid his entry in full, wanted those points properly recorded on the score sheet then that is his perrogative. He can't just come back and tell you he had a coon and have you add those points to the card. It has to be officially scored to go on the card.

But there are state races, club races etc that add up points officially scored on the card. Two of the clubs I belong to do that and the "dog of the year" is crowned (there are other criteria as well, but total plus points, minus points and circle points are used).

Not taking up for someone being a jerk if that's what he was doing, but he may, emphasize MAY have a legitimate reason to want those points on the card.

Plus Todd posted a couple of things on here that can change the outcome of the cast and the 2nd place dog get the win.

That rule just makes sure dogs are accountable for everything they did within the hunt.

If it were me, personally I would have just scratched my dog and met you guys at the truck, but he paid the entry fee and it was his right to have every point his dog earned during hunt time officially recorded on the card.

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Posted by jculler8 on 08-08-2010 10:33 PM:

I believe most of all, CWS was saying handler of dog B was being a jerk... he didn't finish 2nd, he finished 3rd and was just being ignorant towards the cast in making everyone shine his meaningless tree.

Like I told CWS on the ride back to the club, "I would have no problem going to his tree if he needed help gathering his dog up, but he wanted to shine and handle his dog, bc he was looking for a CHEEP WIN."

I understand he is entitled to that, but CWS is simply asking for a rule change, such that winners of casts have a BETTER chance of making it back before deadline more often!

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Posted by Chris.S on 08-09-2010 03:27 PM:

I don't agree with CWS often but do on this one.

If I understand this correctly the hunt time expired while shinning A&C's trees. If the hunt is over and a dog treed cannot possibily win what is the point in forcing someone else to score his tree. The other dogs in the cast are on the lead and can't get in any trouble so why should I HAVE to walk in the some guy's dog when he has been a tool all night.

I've been on both sides of this fence. Once I had a man tell me I had to go with him and score his tree, his dog was beat and he'd been a problem all night. I told him I'd see him at the club and he could write me up. Turns out I was correct in the hunts I particpate in we are not required to score a tree after the hunt is over for a dog that cannot possibily win.

In another case the cast is over and a dog is treed forever in the country alone, the hunt is over and mine is in my hand. Me and the other guy don't even know what county we are in, I put mine in the truck and walk in with him to get his. I told him no sense him walking alone we had a great hunt, let's go see his coon. Same circumstance different outcome.

There is no point in making a man score a tree when the hunt is over, the other dogs are in hand and the dog treed cannot possibly win. It is just another way for a dog that has beat the competition during 2 hr hunt to get screwed/scratched after the hunt is over and the true winner has been decided.

Posted by CWS on 08-09-2010 03:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chris.S
I don't agree with CWS often but do on this one.

If I understand this correctly the hunt time expired while shinning A&C's trees. If the hunt is over and a dog treed cannot possibily win what is the point in forcing someone else to score his tree. The other dogs in the cast are on the lead and can't get in any trouble so why should I HAVE to walk in the some guy's dog when he has been a tool all night.

I've been on both sides of this fence. Once I had a man tell me I had to go with him and score his tree, his dog was beat and he'd been a problem all night. I told him I'd see him at the club and he could write me up. Turns out I was correct in the hunts I particpate in we are not required to score a tree after the hunt is over for a dog that cannot possibily win.

In another case the cast is over and a dog is treed forever in the country alone, the hunt is over and mine is in my hand. Me and the other guy don't even know what county we are in, I put mine in the truck and walk in with him to get his. I told him no sense him walking alone we had a great hunt, let's go see his coon. Same circumstance different outcome.

There is no point in making a man score a tree when the hunt is over, the other dogs are in hand and the dog treed cannot possibly win. It is just another way for a dog that has beat the competition during 2 hr hunt to get screwed/scratched after the hunt is over and the true winner has been decided.

Thank you i'm glad someone see's the point. It's far different when the cast members have been pleasurable to hunt with but this mans intentions was to scratch me if I did not follow him several hundred yards. In all honesty he hoped I did not go with him so he could scratch me! It's an old trick that can be used by "slick handlers".

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Posted by on 08-09-2010 03:56 PM:

CWS
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2010
Location:
Posts: 486
Night Hunt Question:
Okay here's the deal. Dog A is setting at 375+ Dog B 325+ and Dog C 250+

Dog(s) A B and C are casted with 13 minutes left to hunt. Dog A strikes for 100 followed by Dog C for 75 followed by Dog B for 50.

Dog C is treed for 125 followed by a split tree call by Dog B followed by a split tree call by Dog A.

Proceed to Dog C and Dog(s) A and C are split treed 20 yards appart. Handler of Dog B wants to wait to handle his dog until these two trees are scorred. Cast agrees to shine both trees at the same time since they are so close together. Find the coon in Dog A's tree so now nobody can beat dog A but handler of Dog B states that if the cast doesn't walk into his tree and score it they will be scratched.

Now the question is if handlers of Dog A and C refuse to walk to Dog B's tree because the tree is meaningless can they be scratched?

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CWS, read that very last sentence in your very first post. "Now the question is......"
You ask a simple question that has a simple answer, the answer being "yes" , you can be scratched for refusing to score that tree. Now, 3 pages later and all these posts and you are still trying to make a point that prolly nobody disagrees with. Yes, we mostly all agree that only a prick would make the cast walk to that last tree. So why did you even ask the question? You knew the answer. If all you wanted to do was make the point that guys who make you walk to trees that can't win are pricks, then why not just make a post that declares "Guys that make you walk to meaningless trees are pricks."?

As for Chris S's reply, you may get away with that in PKC but this is UKC and in UKC Chris gets scratched for walking back to the truck in that situation.

Posted by CWS on 08-09-2010 04:23 PM:

The point is if "most agree" that it is ridiculous why can it (within the rules) be done?

If nothing but bad can come out of something why not take that something out of the picture?

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Posted by on 08-09-2010 04:27 PM:

Unbelieveable. You have to walk to one friggen tree and a week later, you are still grousing about it. You are a real piece of work.

Posted by Fred Harroun on 08-09-2010 04:29 PM:

jim

like my wife says ya cant fix stupid,it dont do any good to explain to him he wants to change rules all the time to fit his agenda.

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Posted by CWS on 08-09-2010 04:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Unbelieveable. You have to walk to one friggen tree and a week later, you are still grousing about it. You are a real piece of work.

Through 3 pages and yet the point has yet to "sink" in. I will try this one more time.

THE FACT IS NOT THAT IT'S HARD TO WALK TO A TREE!!! THE FACT IS IT IS JUST ANOTHER "LAST HOPE" EFFORT THAT A SLICK HANDLER CAN PULL ON A YOUNG OR INEXPERIENCED HANDLER.

Yep Freddrick! I'm a terrible dumb person that just wants to see rules that can be used to take advantage of people decreased. Again it's my view of the issue! Don't agree fine but trying to degrade me is going beyond disagreeing!

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 08-09-2010 04:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by CWS
The point is if "most agree" that it is ridiculous why can it (within the rules) be done?

If nothing but bad can come out of something why not take that something out of the picture?

A new rule about it would bring out more pricks than it doe's the way it is. You are out there in country you don't know, on land owners you don't know, everyone leaves you there to go get your dog by yourself. You get lost going to dog, you don't know how to get back to club house when you get out of the woods, land owner confronts you about not haveing permission, you get hurt out there by yourself. If is wasn't for that rule there would be a LOT more trouble than there is some body getting screwed now. So just put it off to can't be helped. He was a prick if he didn't have a reason for what he done BUT there would be a lot more prove themselves to be pricks with out the rule.

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Posted by pigsit on 08-09-2010 05:10 PM:

If I'm not mistaken, there is a rule for consideration at the rules committee meeting that deals with the hunt being over when it is over. If the rule passes, it would deal with this situation. Tom

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Posted by Cornbelt on 08-09-2010 05:15 PM:

I guess in all the arguing I missed the rule that said a handler could be scratched for not going to a tree. Is there such a rule?

UKC has stated you can't scratch someone for not shining a tree.... how is that any different?

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Posted by CWS on 08-09-2010 05:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pigsit
If I'm not mistaken, there is a rule for consideration at the rules committee meeting that deals with the hunt being over when it is over. If the rule passes, it would deal with this situation. Tom

Man I hope youre right. I sure hope if it does go through the commitee it gets passed! Thanks for sharing Tom.

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Posted by Phil Vogel on 08-09-2010 05:33 PM:

Guide to getting along on a cast

Try having a good time! Enjoy the fellowship and the experience of hunting with different people and their hounds . Score them as they do, walk to the Man's tree, score the dog. Compliment a man when his dog looks good, and hold your thoughts when the dog don't look so good. There is no shame in losing a cast. Some nights you win, some you lose. It's not all about who won the cast in the end, it's the enjoyment of the hunting experience that really matters.

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Posted by Majestic Tree H on 08-09-2010 05:40 PM:

I guess I just Can't understand How it could be Written ??

Lets say Its Getting Late and It desided "This is the Last Drop so We can get Back before Deadline.

Last Drop and Your WAY Ahead in the Cast and even if the Hounds do get Treed they can't catch you..

So the Hounds are Casted and ABC Tree up Close and Your has Gone Deep and Trees by its Self ..

Well It Sounds Like the 3 other Handlers Think Your Tree is Meaningless To Them Which it is "You have already Won the Cast".. They have Lost and Don't want to Go and Score Your Tree ??

But that Meaningless Tree to Them..

Wins you the Hunt ..

What Wording would you use to Change the Rule ???

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Posted by troy on 08-09-2010 06:00 PM:

Cornbelt.....according to rule #1 and rule # 17 as explained on page 1 of this post the answer is YES you can be scrached.

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Posted by Cornbelt on 08-09-2010 07:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by troy
Rule 17 says.." Dogs declared treed within the hunting time are eligable to be scored"

page 49&50 of the ADVISOR says tree to be scored.... failer to score a tree or vote on the tree ( + - circel) is a srachable ofence

WE KNOW THAT EVEN WITH TIME BEING UP ON THE HUNT YOU STILL SCORE A TREE

you say that with finding dog A coon no one can beat him that is fine and well congradulation are said now to me I feel that SPORTMANSHIP would say go to the other dog and still give him the time he desreves and the credit he is entitled to

Don't have my advisor handy but I'm pretty sure ukc does not scratch a handler for not shining a tree. How is that any different than not going to the tree? If that tree has no bearing on the outcome of the cast..... fine I vote to plus it. I scored the tree see you at the truck.

Yes if dog A was winning or could win then yes the right thing to do is go to the tree. But if dog A has -350 and the hunt time is over you are telling me u would walk a half mile through cut over in 80 degree heat? Common sense tells me that is poor sportsman to make a cast walk to the tree for no good reason. If he needed a guide then yes the guide should walk him in.

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Posted by on 08-09-2010 07:06 PM:

You can't be scratched for refusing to shine, you CAN be scratched for refusing to score.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 08-10-2010 12:41 AM:

Didn't get it.

Posted by Cornbelt on 08-10-2010 04:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
You can't be scratched for refusing to shine, you CAN be scratched for refusing to score.

So if me and 3 other cast members all have + points and the 4th cast member has -350 and trees his dog way deep through a swamp just before the hunt time expires.... we have to go with him or we are scratched? Let me rephrase that... the guy that has won the cast has to go with or be scratched? I'm sure the two guys who didn't win will opt for the scratch and straight to the truck. Seems kinda ridiculous t me.

What if I do indeed score the tree. Before he goes to the tree I tell him I vote to plus it.... am I still scratched? If so what rule?

Let's say the guy really wants to cause problems and knows that going to his dog will cause the winner to be scratched..... his tree being scored.... even though he can't win..... is more important than getting the high scoring dog back in time for the deadline? Most everyone is ok with this and considers this good sportsmanship and a good rule?

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 08-10-2010 04:32 AM:

I don't think anyone has said it is good sportsmanship or a good rule. It is just the best one you can come up with when you take into comsideration the bad sportsman that would leave a man out by himself to get his dog by himself while they go home. If it was allowed there would be a lot of people left out there by themselves and then you get into a safety issue and even more unsportsman like conduct. So some times the best you can do is the best you can do. I don't think this will happen as much as people left in the woods the other way.
You want to be left out there with a mad land owner that doesn't beleive a word you are telling him. I have atleast one that would shoot if it isn't my truck parked out there. He drinks a lot and has shot at people before. Just can't hit when he is dringking. LOL

Posted by CWS on 08-10-2010 01:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cornbelt
So if me and 3 other cast members all have + points and the 4th cast member has -350 and trees his dog way deep through a swamp just before the hunt time expires.... we have to go with him or we are scratched? Let me rephrase that... the guy that has won the cast has to go with or be scratched? I'm sure the two guys who didn't win will opt for the scratch and straight to the truck. Seems kinda ridiculous t me.

What if I do indeed score the tree. Before he goes to the tree I tell him I vote to plus it.... am I still scratched? If so what rule?

Let's say the guy really wants to cause problems and knows that going to his dog will cause the winner to be scratched..... his tree being scored.... even though he can't win..... is more important than getting the high scoring dog back in time for the deadline? Most everyone is ok with this and considers this good sportsmanship and a good rule?

Kyle, i'm glad you see the point! The only rule they are using is "dogs treed within hunt time will be scored"

All i'm saying is I would love to see it changed! If i'm the only one that wants to see it changed then I guess I will just deal with it whenever it comes up again.

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Posted by on 08-10-2010 02:19 PM:

Cornbelt, I'll tell you the same thing I tell CWS, don't ask the question if you don't want the answer.
How often does someone make anyone walk in the situation you guys are all upset about? Almost never. Unless you were a prick all night. What goes around comes around.

Posted by CWS on 08-10-2010 02:38 PM:

I once made that very comment to an older gentelmen that one thought it was within his due right to strike the first dog that barked all night. He knew he could get away with it because his younger buddy would vote not to minus him. Well when my opportunity came along I made the comment "what goes around comes around"

He didn't think to much of it needless to say. He wrote me up for it and I laughed all the way back to the clubhouse, all the way in the clubhouse, and all the way out the door with my cast win money.

I would love to see how a wise man like yourself would have handled the judg Joe Culler and I had last weekend.

I heard a rumor about the man and I'm not positive if it's true or not but it's good for a laugh needless to say and based on my experience of drawing him two times I would say it is true.

The cast was over and the guy had lost but he could not stand the guy that won so on there way out of the woods he fell down and acted like he was having a heart attack so the cast would not make the deadline.

How low would you all rate that one? LOL

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Posted by Cornbelt on 08-10-2010 03:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Cornbelt, I'll tell you the same thing I tell CWS, don't ask the question if you don't want the answer.
How often does someone make anyone walk in the situation you guys are all upset about? Almost never. Unless you were a prick all night. What goes around comes around.

What rule are you going to use to scratch me Jim? You need me to score the tree that doesn't matter. I vote to plus it and head to the truck..... I scored the tree now what?

If I'm the guide of course I go help the guy get his dog and tell the others how to get back to the truck. I do practice sportsmanship and courtesy in the woods that's why I have a problem with people condoning being a prick.

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