UKC Forums - The Lipper Strain

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Posted by josh on 07-11-2010 04:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Majestic Tree H

How about that litter being Hunt Tested before they Recieve a Set of Breeding Papers .. As is now Every Cull in the Litter Gets Papers which allows them the Enter the Breeding Gene Pool ..

No doubt, you know more about breeding culls than I could ever hope to know.

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 07-11-2010 04:28 PM:

Thats about the Statement I Expected From You Josh !!! LOL

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Posted by Hopkins/Lipper on 07-11-2010 04:45 PM:

THERE'S A LIPPER TRAIN ACOMIN'

quote:
Originally posted by josh
Good start? You go right ahead and keep having your fits of nostalgia looking at old pictures and dreaming of the "old days" I was hunting at that time and dont miss them a bit.

Europe? You have to be joking...

Josh.. I do not know who or what you were hunting with back when LIPPER was breaking all records with sheer overpowering ability. He passed his traits on to his offspring with great success. He has had a tremendous IMPACT on this breed or he would not still be a main topic today. Since he has been gone different traits have become more prevailent. Traits like weak nose poor mouth tree happy pop up dogs that are looking to get treed coon or no coon and handlers that seem to be happy with circle trees. I AM NOT! Give me back the days when LIPPER would throw dirt in your face leaving, strike first honestly, run a track with his head in the air meaning to catch it. LIPPER would string the other dogs out behind him squeeling and yelping while trying to keep up.He would blow that hair raising screaming locate while sliding into the timber where the show was about to begin. Many times the cast would want or move back, then move closer in an attempt to hear their dogs. Going into the tree you could most times see the other dogs mouths moving, but could only hear LIPPER. Most importantly you you would see a coon. That, is what I am intending to put back into these modern day dogs that are lacking in what this sport is all about. These are only facts and I wish you the best. ONLY THREE MOR DAYS !! till this historical litter of LIPPER pups are born from 26 year old semen from when he was 2 years old and in his reproductive prime. Again I wish you the best Josh.

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Posted by chad kinsey on 07-11-2010 05:54 PM:

as of june 13,2009.lipper had 5103 offspring ,115 gn,290 nc.

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Posted by Larry Hall on 07-11-2010 06:26 PM:

guess most of the folks who raised all those pups didn't campaign them much..

Posted by Hopkins/Lipper on 07-11-2010 06:44 PM:

Then and Now

Many people who bred to Lipper were pleasure hunters and did not competition hunt. Also back in his day, there were 100 plus dogs at a UKC club hunt. There would 3 to 5 Nite Champion casts and usually a couple of Grand Nite casts. They did not hand out Grd, Nt Ch degrees with a one cast hunt like they do these days . You had to earn them the hard way, with a real live coondog not a pop up squeeler with a slick tree.
Tom Hopkins
Hopkins/Lipper

Posted by Fox Valley on 07-11-2010 07:02 PM:

And they were three hour hunts.....

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Posted by SouthernCross on 07-11-2010 08:59 PM:

Posted by GA DAWG on 07-11-2010 09:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Majestic Tree H
Very Simple 26 years of "Poor Back Yard Uneducated Breedings"

It Just may take this Old Semen to Fix it All or at least get it Back to a good Start..

Thats why Europe's Hound Breeding have been Preformed by Professional Houndsmen and Kennel Masters for the past 500 years or so ..

Not in "Joes" Back yard with Who knows What.

My gosh if he helps the walker breed be any better..All the other breeds might as well give it up for good then! Atleast they still win a few now against these "poor back yard uneducated breedings" FIX IT LMAO!!!

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Posted by HistoryNutt on 07-11-2010 11:41 PM:

THE LIPPER STRIN - HOUSE' QUEEN LOU

I have put this up on the other boards so with the interest in what is going on right now I will put it up here. I expect there will be input from time to time to keep it up and alive.

Is it time to start talking about a Lipper Strain?? A serious question and for good reason. I know the first impulse might be to say, what are you talking about he is House Bred.

But what is Yadkin River? What is Lone Pine? What is Clover? What is Spring Creek? What is Sailor Boy?

Well lets take Sailor Boy. The Sailor Strain is HERSHBERGER bred. But a couple of dogs with a different name came from that strain that had an impact and people started talking about the Sailor strain of hounds.

Well House's Lipper has had an impact too. Bigger then maybe most realize. Even though he does have some House Bred hounds in him, he also has a lot more of some of the other hounds that made an impact on the breed. The combination of these strains is what made Lipper. In a later post I will try to go into how much of the House Strain he has in him compared to some of the other dogs in his pedigree.

This is not an attempt to take away from the House Strain but give credit to the other strains that combined together made Lipper which is The Lipper Strain.

With the arrival in a few days of some brand new puppies out of House's Lipper maybe it is time to actually talk about the Lipper Strain and the impact it has had on the breed. Doesn't he deserve this much?

quote:
Originally posted by C.Gibson
Hey history nut.. What can you tell us about House's tom tom? Back in the day that was the blood I loved. Tom Tom, & Clint. Both led to lipper.

Okay before I start let me do a disclaimer.

"Okay your House freaks said with a smile, the information I am going to post here and in later posts is in NO WAY meant to take anything away from Joe House and the important part he had on the breed. It is not meant to diminish his importance or to bash him in anyway. It is also not meant to give more credit then what is due.

To talk about a strain we will need a fountain head for that strain. I would think that HOUSE'S QUEEN would be considered the Fountain Head of the House's Strain.

Let's start with HOUSE'S TOM TOM. Would most consider him a House Bred Hound? Tom Tom was out of Kaw River Chief and Tinsley's Kansas Tess.

Kaw River Chief was out of House's Chief and Johnson's Kansas Rose.

House's Chief was out of Johnson's Banjo and House's Queen.

Kansas Rose was out of Staley's Paducah Chief and Hershberger's Kansas Sally.

Tom Tom's mother Tinsley's Kansas Tess was out of Bun's Jack and Tinsley's Kansas Jane. What many may not realize is that there was another Tinsley's Kansas Tess that had as much if not more impact then Tom Tom's mother Tess. The original Tinsley's Kansas Tess is in Tom's mother background numerous times. She was out of Mack Twain and a female out of Indiana Boone Boy and Forrester's Sue. Her mother was a litter mate to Forrester's Bell, Motley's Mo. Major's mother.

So House's Tom Tom's mother goes back to Mack Twain at least 3 times, Indiana Boone Boy at least 4 times, Forrester's Sue at least 4 time, Motley's Mo. Major, Merchant's Bawlie, Hershberger's Little Butch.

Tom Tom's Daddy Kaw River Chief as stated goes back to Johnson's Banjo and House's Queen. But in all fairness if you was going to call Tom Tom as House Bred because of his Grandfather's mother, couldn't you also make the argument he is Banjo bred?

Tom Tom's grand pa is House's Chief. That is the only place you get House and since Chief was out of Banjo why not Banjo bred?

Kaw River Chief's mother Kansas Rose goes back to Nance's Joe Williams, Mack Twain, Hershberger's Okla. Spot, Hershberger's Texas Babe, Indians Boone Boy, Forrester's Sue, White River Boone at least 2 times, and Hershberger's Spot Jr.

So there you have it for the most part. What strain is Tom Tom?

Okay, now lets start on HOUSE'S CLINT. His daddy is HOUSE'S TOM TOM which above. Clint's mama Kentuck Judy goes back to TARLETON'S BAWLING BOWSER on her top side. Bowser was one of the top dogs of his day. He was not only a good tree dog he had a cold nose and could run a track like it was suppose to be run.

Bowser was bred to BIXLER'S SUNNY SALLY, (FINLEY RIVER CHIEF's sister) to produce BUCK CREEK ROWDY. Rowdy in turn produced SIMMON'S DOUBLE DEE, (the daddy of VANCE'S CROWDING BILLY) and PROCTOR'S MELODY BILL the daddy of RUTAN'S BEAR CREEK PRINCESS who is the mother of OWEN'S HARDWOOD BOZO.

I am only go into this here to give you an idea of the impact he had.

The other dogs on the top side of Judy are MERCHANT'S BAWLIE 2 times, MERHANT'S BUGLAR, INDIANA BOONE BOY, WHITE RIVER ROWDY, WHITE RIVER KING, MACK TWAIN.

On Judy's mother's side you have INDIANA BOONE BOY and FORRESTER'S SUE, MACK TWAIN, BUCK CREEK KING who was out of KENTUCKY SPOT (another top hound of his day, he was a very fast track dog and was hard to beat in the hunts,) and BIXLER'S SUPREME SALLY.

There are some holes in her pedigree that I'm not sure about so won't mention them until I can confirm it but there is some more important dogs of the past in her pedigree.

So there you have it for the most part on HOUSE'S CLINT. He doesn't pick up anymore House dogs in his pedigree but does at more MACK TWAIN, INDIANA BOONE BOY, FORRESTER'S SUE and others.

Okay now lets deal with Lipper's mother HOUSE'S QUEEN LOU. If ever there was a place for someone to make the argument that Lipper was House bred it would be through her. But even at that if you will check what I said about the other dogs on his daddy's side and look at his mama's side you will find some of the old dogs showing up a lot more times then others.

Queen Lou was out of SHIVE'S GOLDHILL TOM and SHIVE'S GOLDHILL LOU.

Goldhill Tom was out of HOUSE'S CHIEF and SHIVE'S GOLDHILL QUEEN.

Of course House's Chief was out of JOHNSON'S BANJO and HOUSE'S QUEEN. Goldhill Queen was out of HOUSE'S BAWLIE and HOUSE'S JUDY.

Of course Bawlie was out of Elmer and HOUSE'S QUEEN.

House's Judy was out of JOHNSON'S BANJO and HOUSE'S CANDY. Candy was out of MERCHANT'S BUGLAR and MERCHANT'S HAPPY. Happy was out of HI LAND BOZO and BRIAR RIDGE SUSIE.

SHIVE'S GOLDHILL LOU was out of STAN'S SAILOR JR. and WRIGHT'S SUE.

Wright's Sue is I believe thought of by the creator of the Yadkin River Line as the Fountain Head of that line. Yadkin River Jeff's daddy WRIGHT'S PISTOL PETE is a littermate to GOLDHILL LOU.

Stan's Sailor Jr. is out of STAN'S SAILOR BOY and MONROE'S BETTY.

Sailor Boy is out of HERSHBERGER'S SPOT JR. and HERSHBERGER'S KANSAS ROSE. Kansas Rose is out of HERSHBERGER'S LITTLE BUTCH.

Monroe's Betty is out of Ohio Blaze and Corn's Judy. Blaze is out of Rambling Rowdy and Roxie Ann. Corn's Judy is out of MERCHANT'S BAWLIE and the original TINSLEY'S KANSAS TESS. Tess was out of MACK TWAIN and TEXAS BEAUTY QUEEN who was out of INDIANA BOONE BOY and FORRESTER'S SUE.

WRIGHT'S SUE is out of HOUSE'S BAWLIE and TUT'S TILLIE. Of course with Bawlie we again pick up HOUSE'S QUEEN. TUT'S TILLE was a Dual Grand Ch. out of an interesting cross. Tillie's daddy was BAWLIE'S ROCK and her mother was CAROLINA KATE.

Bawlie's Rock was out of MERCHANT'S BAWLIE and MERCHANT'S FANNY (the 1959 World Champion). Fanny was out of INCREDIBLE ROCK. The 1951 and 1952 World Champion.

CAROLINA KATE was out of SHETLER'S SONNY BOY and BUNKER HILL QUEEN. Queen was out of INCREDIBLE ROCK and NANCE'S JANE who was out of WHITE RIVER BOONE

Now there are a few holes I need to fill on this side and the father's side of LIPPER. I think I know what a lot of them are but don't want to list them until I am sure. But most is some of the same old foundation stock that keeps on showing up in his pedigree. MACK TWAIN, HERSHBERGER'S SPOT JR., INDIANA BOONE BOY, FORRESTER'S SUE, WHITE RIVER BOONE, etc.

So there you have it for the most part the dogs behind THE LIPPER STRAIN. I will add more as I fill the few holes remaining.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 07-11-2010 11:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by POTOMAC
dont forget guys its not just breeding/the pups born and instant coon dog.it takes alot of time and hardwork to bringout the natural born gifts of these dogs and lets face it just like anything else most of todays hunters are to impatient and lazy to put the time into a hound to bring out its top attributes so they get passed around and simply done nothing with. this is not the hounds fault it is the hunters and i hope mr hopkins hand picks and cks out everybody that ends up witha pup. oh and there is very few that can afford to just buy one and to me there is no satisfaction in that. instead of getting 10 hounds and hunting them 1 nite get 1 hound and spend 10 nites in the woods with them/be patient and train your own. lets face it the traits that are bred into a pup are only good if they get the oppurtunity to deveelop them. jmo

Very good post. They don't come out of the womb that way. You are right about nobody spending enough time in the woods with them too. A lot of the high dollar pups go to people that can hire people to hunt them several times a weak and it is people that know how to handle dogs and prevent bad habbits from forming to start with.
That being said, I know you can't improve a breed with every generation BUT YOU CAN sure ruin one in a hury. Bringing back the old origianal blood would have to help.
I don't want blood lines to go so far back I have to go back to driveing my own truck. Waylon doesn't mind driveing as long as he can stay out of the dog box. LOL
Look around, any body can mess up nature and instinct.

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Posted by bluff country on 07-12-2010 12:02 AM:

The good ole days

Mr. Hopkins I'll bet you had to walk to school a mile , up hill both ways , barefoot . Change your gears , this is the UKC board not the PKC board . Last I knew you couldn't win a UKC hunt with a dog that made minus slick trees all night . Lippers reproducing percentage is alot less than alot of others . You guys say Houses Clint wouldn't even be talked about if it wouldn't be for Lipper . Well there was a dog up here that was a grandson of Clint called Porcupine Valley Rebel that reproduced better than Lipper . He also had a son , Credit River Tucker that was on the top ten reproducers list . Neither one had an ounce of Lipper . If there is 20 dogs or 100 dogs in a hunt that doesn't diminish the importance of a win .

Posted by observer on 07-12-2010 12:17 AM:

I had 2 very good Lipper dogs at the end of my leash. I never was a Lipper fan, the higher % of the ones I hunted with spent too much time with their nose in the dirt and slipping from forward to reverse too much but they made it sound good and they were fast about it. I do believe that if a pup gets characteristics from both the sire and dam, that females of today would have a better chance of producing nicer Lipper dogs than the females that were bred to him back in the day. That bloodline, in my eyes, always needed a jack stand propped up under their chin. The Norfleet brothers had the best ones I hunted with--Dolly, Barney, and Mack. Chirpee was a good one as well.

Posted by Hopkins/Lipper on 07-12-2010 12:26 AM:

Re: The good ole days

quote:
Originally posted by bluff country
Mr. Hopkins I'll bet you had to walk to school a mile , up hill both ways , barefoot . Change your gears , this is the UKC board not the PKC board . Last I knew you couldn't win a UKC hunt with a dog that made minus slick trees all night . Lippers reproducing percentage is alot less than alot of others . You guys say Houses Clint wouldn't even be talked about if it wouldn't be for Lipper . Well there was a dog up here that was a grandson of Clint called Porcupine Valley Rebel that reproduced better than Lipper . He also had a son , Credit River Tucker that was on the top ten reproducers list . Neither one had an ounce of Lipper . If there is 20 dogs or 100 dogs in a hunt that doesn't diminish the importance of a win .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Posted by Rob Smith on 07-12-2010 12:55 AM:

no need to bash lipper about his percentages
25 years ago it was definately harder to title a dog
now days there is a club that holds licensed hunts on every street corner, that wasnt the case back then.

Posted by GA DAWG on 07-12-2010 12:58 AM:

Yeah just imagine what kind of score a hound of today could run up back then in 3 hours..Probably be 3 or 4000 plus....

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Posted by Rob Smith on 07-12-2010 01:13 AM:

back in the mid 80's there werent near as many coons as there are today. Back then there werent near as many people that cared about titles as there are today the proof in who had the best dog was in how many coons you dropped at the fur buyers at the end of the season,you also had to compete with all the trappers that weretaking there fair share also.I do believe that the top dogs back then could put up the same kind of scores as they are today if put in the same places with the same coon populations.

Posted by POTOMAC on 07-12-2010 01:27 AM:

needs to get rid of the win at all cost tree dogs and handlers and get back to what real coonhunting is about/mr hopkins has blessed us with an oppurtunity to go back in time to right our wrongs and relive history.now quite being jealous are trying to bash someone elses dog and lets get it right this time. to better the walker breed not to better someones bank account!!!!!!

Posted by Fox Valley on 07-12-2010 02:27 AM:

I know afew folks who would be happy to see another "Rank", i'm pulling for ya.

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Posted by Lipperman on 07-12-2010 04:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Fox Valley
I know afew folks who would be happy to see another "Rank", i'm pulling for ya.

Touche'

Look, guys, Tom ain't no dummy. Lighten up and cut him a little slack. I talk to Tom at least twice a day, and believe me, he get's it. He realizes that the key to these pups being all they can be, depends on who's hands they wind up in.

Please allow me to climb up on my soap box and rant for a moment, and please forgive me if I offend anyone by these statements, it is not my intention! :

I would put my Lipper dog resume' up against most anyone in the country. I have un-snapped some of the best that Lipper has sired, from his very first litter, to his last natural breeding, and then through frozen semen. It's been quite a ride, covering almost 30 years.
Yes, I had quite a few culls. But, I knew what a cull was, and was willing to do what was necessary. Anyone who has read some of the posts I have made in the past will remember what I said about the culls: There were probably 200-300 females that should never have been bred to Lipper, OR ANY OTHER STUD DOG FOR THAT MATTER!
Guys, if a man is standing there with $500.00 in his hand ready to give it to you if you will let him breed to your stud dog, guess what, you ain't going to turn him down because his female just doesn't meet your standards. Lipper pups back then were like money in the bank. Everyone knew the pups would sell, regardless of the female, hence, low percentages and high cull rates.
It was true back then, and it remains true today, it takes two, good reproducing parents to give us the type of hounds we all like to hunt.

But hey, I ain't sitting here making any kind of excuses for Tom, and especially Lipper. Neither one of them needs me to defend them, their records speak for themselves.

If a man doesn't like the progeny that came from Lipper's loins, then so be it. No harm, no foul. Hunt and show what you like. I think it's still a free country.

Tom, I admire your enthusiasm and your dedication to not only 'ole Lipper, but to our entire sport. I wish you and Jerry the very best of everything with this awesome litter.

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Posted by HOBO on 07-12-2010 04:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lipperman

Guys, if a man is standing there with $500.00 in his hand ready to give it to you if you will let him breed to your stud dog, guess what, you ain't going to turn him down because his female just doesn't meet your standards.

Well said Lipperman. But I'm sure there will be a few people that will post on here and say they would turn it down.

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Posted by Lipperman on 07-12-2010 04:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
Well said Lipperman. But I'm sure there will be a few people that will post on here and say they would turn it down.

You're right, HOBO.

It used to crack me up to read those ads that said "will breed to approved females only". Yea, right.

It's amazing how fast that cash will get them approved!

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 07-12-2010 04:19 AM:

Yep cash talks and B.S. well types. LOL

Posted by HistoryNutt on 07-12-2010 07:45 AM:

Re: The good ole days

quote:
Originally posted by bluff country
Mr. Hopkins I'll bet you had to walk to school a mile , up hill both ways , barefoot . Change your gears , this is the UKC board not the PKC board . Last I knew you couldn't win a UKC hunt with a dog that made minus slick trees all night . Lippers reproducing percentage is alot less than alot of others . You guys say Houses Clint wouldn't even be talked about if it wouldn't be for Lipper . Well there was a dog up here that was a grandson of Clint called Porcupine Valley Rebel that reproduced better than Lipper . He also had a son , Credit River Tucker that was on the top ten reproducers list . Neither one had an ounce of Lipper . If there is 20 dogs or 100 dogs in a hunt that doesn't diminish the importance of a win .

Bluff Country, you said: If there is 20 dogs or 100 dogs in a hunt that doesn't diminish the importance of a win .

It is harder to get a win with 100 dogs in place of 20 dogs, don't you agree?

Don't get upset about the good ole days, get happy that they may be coming again with this Lipper Train Of Impact Pups.

If people weren't talking about LIPPER now they wouldn't be mentioning Clint.

What does making minus slick trees have to do with LIPPER.

Take a deep breath and relax. If this litter doesn't turn out you can come back on here and say, I TOLD YOU SO.

But then if it does turn out you may want to take another deep breath.

Posted by barryg35 on 07-12-2010 12:32 PM:

so how many top hounds is it going to take for the 2nd comming to be successful? just from post in other places his reproduction rate wasn't that of others. so what is going to make it better 26 yrs later?

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