UKC Forums - Lay up dog yes or no?

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Posted by l.lyle on 06-15-2010 06:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Wells
I have no idea if you could train a dog to wind and tree layups or not, it's more a trait that just bred into them. I do know that I had a hound that was cold nosed, would open as soon a came to a track, but when wind was right he would tree all you cared to pack out, without ever opening on trail ! I have seen coons laying on limbs warming , gone home got the dog and returned 3 hours later, and the only sound heard was Reb's locate as he hit the tree ! You can learn a lot about dogs by taking them hunting in the daylight ... have seen a lot of coons from dawn to about 9am.
Something that I have done to see if a puppy might have any winding ability was to lay a dead coon up in a tree , wait a while and bring puppy out by himself, let him venture around and see if he shows any reaction when wind blows toward him . They seem to get nervous and start looking around as if a predator was near . The ones that showed a reaction later went on to tree layups and would strike driving down road , when they grew up. I would do this before they had ever seen a hide or coon, and always in a place where they could not see anything .

I have a picture and I'll try to take a picture of a picture and post it of my better lay-up dog when he was 4 months old. I had a cootail on a short string on a fishing pole to let him chase it around that afternoon. He did and i put him up. About midnight a dog woke me up sounding treed. I went out to find that pup had got out the pen and was treeing on a blueberry bush in the yard where I had thrown the pole and tail when I got through. No, I had not layed a trail anywhere close to those blueberry bushes. He found it on his own even though the blueberry bushes are hardly 12 feet tall. Maybe I accidentally trained him to wind.

Oh and for the felow that said a dog has no reason to stand on a tree unless it's the last tree he smelled the coon on'. This particular dog ain't even good at standing on his hind legs to get a dose of hamberger. I have had a shonuff Blackmouth Cur that could walk around most good as me on her hind legs. But you can look at him treeing. He ain't treeing on a tree. you can tell he's just using it for something to lean up on. If he was smelling the scent, on all fours he would be thirty or forty feet further away. So he gets as close as the breeze will allow and leans on something.

Posted by on 06-15-2010 01:48 PM:

"WOW"!

quote:
Originally posted by CWS
Lay up? Doubtfull. If a dog is really winding a coon in will not be standing right on the tree and also it will miss a good percent of trees it winds them on. I mean seriously think about it, there's hundresds of trees within a couple acres that are all side by side. The chances of youre dog "winding" a coon with no track and being on the right tree are slim, very slim.

"OUR" 30+ years of dedication towards producing these kinds of dog's shows the opposite of what you are thinkin.

First of all,I've said it before,"TRUE LAYUP" dog's are deadly accurate & all the ones we've had stand up on the wood not settin on their buttock's where they last smelt the coon....LOL!

A dog that miss' that much is a slick treein idiot. Now you can call it a layup dog that miss' if'n you so desire but I wouldn't. There is a huge difference in a golfball that alway's comes in with boo koo circle points (see slick treein idiot) & a Genuine layup dog.

Some may never have had the pleasure while some have & didn't know it. A chap in a recent hunt had 1,400 circle & after tellin us how good of a layup dog his was all he could say is,"I know their there just can't get'um ta look". They might look if they was there to begin with such as was not the case. He was calling his slick treein golfball a layup dog when actually it was an empty tree grabbin - markin the tree's for the logger's slick treeing idiot. Know the difference......

Case in point, hunting one dog alone prior to the kit's bein born she made five tree's in one night & ironically they was all huge den's with swelled up sows catchin a breeze on the outside. She would take off from one like she knew where the next one was already. Couple big locates & poundin on Everyone of them & the same dog after that cold trailed one a good way's & had that coon as well on the outside. Then she caught one on the ground in the timber smokin it. An adult type coon that thought he could out run her. RIP mr stupid coon !

Thermal's & scent cones, some can workum accurately & some can't or don't have a clue.

I've seen dogs wind coon a long way's off & come treed with the good's. I've also seen many many coon treed that other dogs had no idear' was there or what the dog was even doin treed on that tree.

I'm stickin with genetic's on this one. I've never even attempted to train one to be that-a-way. A leaf suckin nite crawler huntin model never will be a layup dog but them heads up tail dancin model's,I'd watch out for them.

Just my opinion from the archives of my limited experience.

Posted by Kler Kry on 06-15-2010 04:40 PM:

Layup Dogs

Ol' Two toes has the same opinion as I do. Which doesn't always happen! Alot of dogs wind tree these days, but are slick treers because they only get close. They'd be better off playing horseshoes where close counts.
I've observed that accurate layup dogs are genetically transferred from their ancesters.
The comments on this thread varify why it is hard to breed dogs because alot of people use the same words, but their meanings are miles apart.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 06-15-2010 05:35 PM:

Well genetics would help a lot. Just like in any training. A dog that travels with it's head up is going to learn to work air scent much faster then one bred to work with its head tight to the ground. BUT I have even seen Blood hounds trained to air scent. Not as easy of train and a dumb choice in my opinion but they can be trained to do it.
Yes genetics has a lot to do with makeing the job easier. That is why they use breeds that run with there heas up for bird dogs but a good bird dog can and will track in some circumsatnces.
I will tell you what. If you have any dought and want to get a dog to air. Just takes it's food and put it up wind 4 foot off the ground while it is 8 weaks old. Then get it higher every day. See how accurate it get and how fast.
Yes the one bread to do this sort of thing will pick it up easier but put it to the test with any kind of dog you want to and see if they don't figure it out. Then when they start coon hunting. See if they can't put 2 and 2 together and find a coon the same way.
They don't need to check the trunk of a tree to know it is there. There is no cadaver scent on a tree trunk when a cadaver dog find one in a tree. Same thing when a drug dog tells the handler the dope is in the ceiling. They get to were the strongest scent is and aleart.

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Posted by Glenn Wells on 06-15-2010 07:57 PM:

Winding layups I believe is a genetic trait that comes out naturally in some lines , love it or hate it. If you like it, you will breed for it or find pups that's out dogs that have the ability ... and hope ! I have seen a dog that had the ability to do the layup thing, get broke from it because of folks that thought that a trail must come before a tree ... it was OK for him to strike going down the road though ! As a young dog when he locked up on a tree, he would get scolded or hit with the good ol' collar . He did learn that he was supposed to run a good long trail before treeing ... to make sure , I think that might have ran multiple coons before treeing ... to be sure he wasn't going to get in trouble ! The only way to keep up with him was by 4 wheeler, as he was going to cover the miles !
Hey Grady, if I remember what you posted on your walker pup's background , that there are a few of those natural born layup artists in her ancestory !

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 06-15-2010 08:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Wells
Winding layups I believe is a genetic trait that comes out naturally in some lines , love it or hate it. If you like it, you will breed for it or find pups that's out dogs that have the ability ... and hope ! I have seen a dog that had the ability to do the layup thing, get broke from it because of folks that thought that a trail must come before a tree ... it was OK for him to strike going down the road though ! As a young dog when he locked up on a tree, he would get scolded or hit with the good ol' collar . He did learn that he was supposed to run a good long trail before treeing ... to make sure , I think that might have ran multiple coons before treeing ... to be sure he wasn't going to get in trouble ! The only way to keep up with him was by 4 wheeler, as he was going to cover the miles !
Hey Grady, if I remember what you posted on your walker pup's background , that there are a few of those natural born layup artists in her ancestory !

From the way she carries her head and her hunting style I would guess you are right. If she doesn't do it natural I am sure she can be tought real easy.
My blue dog has done some but don't know if he comes by it as natural becouse I started him tracking me then went to letting him air me in trees at a very young age.
The walker naturaly airs more so I am trying to keep her head down right now becouse I want the finished dog to know to use both air and track.
When I was training dogs for duel purpose man tracking and air scenting live finds and cadaver I found it a lot easier to teach the tracking first. Lot of tracking dogs will lift there head and work the air if it is down wind.
For example a trailing dog that comes to an article the person it is tracking drops will air to that article and aleart on it. Then finish the trail to the person it is looking for.
So if a coon dog trained that way is trailing a coon across wind and the coon turns into the wind and goes up a tree will be had in a heart beat.

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 06-15-2010 09:02 PM:

Well Theirs always exceptions to your Theory Grady !!!!

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 06-15-2010 09:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Majestic Tree H
Well Theirs always exceptions to your Theory Grady !!!!

now thats funny!! that bloodhound looks like he's been broke from yank'in clothes of the clothes line, or the scent was more than he could take!!!LOL

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Posted by Velocity on 06-15-2010 09:21 PM:

Now thats some funny stuff there....... The only times i have counted mine as being a layup where when the snow was on the ground and no tracks but her's and the other dogs sniffed around and left hunting while she stayed hooked. Several times she has done this and i usually find her under the coon / looking at it instead of hooked to the base of the tree. To many other variables to say that all of the others were a pop up or ran silent or????

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Posted by blueticker on 06-15-2010 09:43 PM:

That picture was taken in SE Kansas along the Verdigris River. Marcus Leck (mleck) took that picture and sent it to me after the local authorities had been looking for his X wife for several days.

He understood why the bloodhound rufused to trail her.

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Posted by blueticker on 06-15-2010 10:07 PM:

Serious note, when you line hounds up and send them hunting but one hound throws his head in the air and falls treed 50 yds in the opposite direction as the others race away, you have a hound that trees layups. A coon doesn't have to be setting up in a tree for 8 hrs to be considered a layup coon. When a hound winds a coon setting in a tree and goes directily to that tree and gets treed without blowing around on the ground, I consider them a hound that trees layups. A hound that is tight on the ground is often faulted for not opening when they smell a coon. Same deal on layups, when a hound winds a coon they should be opening before the actual locate and tree. If they do open a few times from the sent in the wind, are they considered a layup dog or a wind tracker.

One thing I have noticed over the years of hunting. A dumb dog won't tree too many layups and will tree more blanks.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 06-15-2010 11:06 PM:

I have that pic up in my barber shop. Gets a lot of laughs.

Blueticker if I had a dog I released down wind of a coon and he didn't run toward it he wouldn't last long here. My black dog did that same thing in a hunt a while back. All the other dogs took off and he stayed and treed one 20 yards away. We were standing under the coon when they were released. Wasn't air he had to work. It was pool scent and when he opened they all came back to him. LOL

Posted by Mike Van Dusen on 06-16-2010 12:30 AM:

In my opinion the ability to tree layups will show up in a dog at a young age,they either got it, or they don`t....
If you got a pup and you see it walking around the pen with their head up winding they are trying to use their nose in a way that is bred in them....
I am lucky enough to have 2 in my pen that can tree layups,not silent trailers.1 of them hunts the wind and fires in there and strikes or when you get him out of the box,I can tell he smells 1,when he is released he will open, fire in there and slam a coon!
My friend Skip Hartline has owned and hunted with some of the best rig dogs, and he will tell you that any dog that will rig, will tree a layup!

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Posted by Glenn Wells on 06-16-2010 03:18 AM:

Startin' early

Mike, you are right about layup types starting the the trade early and without any coaching ! I started hunting a littermate pair of pups 34 years ago, that both would lay one up . It didn't matter if the coon were moving or not, if a good wind blowing and he was out, he was treed ! What I found that was funny was to go hunt where my buddies had just got finished hunting and telling me that there were no coons there ... they always seemed to miss a couple .
I do believe that a layup dog is bred that way, probable a recessive gene . I know that the breeding on my pair had House's Chief and House's Tom Tom as their granddads with Kentucky Judy and a Finley River female as grandmaws . Might be a place to start, try a come up with the lines that show the trait fairly often , what do y'all think ?

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 06-16-2010 04:21 AM:

Just becouse one dog does it on it's own and one doesn't. That doesn't mean you can't get them to do it at 8 weaks old. I have set down with very young pups and had them air scenting in minutes.
I use a salt shaker with what ever scent in it. Put it to the pups nose and give him a very small piece of wenie. Then I hold it to the side and when it goes to the shaker I move my other hand over and feed it another peice while it's nose is still at the shaker. Before long I can hide it behind my back and it will go find it and at that point I can take the shaker and throw it up wind, take the pup across wind and when it smells it it will go to it and when it does it gets another bite.
After it get the hang of it I don't feed it at the scent anymore. I pet it or play tug or both.
You can have them winding and going to coon, cadaver, dope or what ever. I tought it at seminars for years as a way to imprent pups on cadaver but it works on any thing you can get in a salt shaker. Walmart has some plastic ones with flip top lids. Every one would go buy them out at noon after I would do a demo.
I called it the salt shaker method. Oh and yes it works on any breed, even blood hounds. As long as they like wenie. lol

Posted by Okie Dawg on 06-16-2010 04:28 AM:

I forgot, after it starts getting good at it you can start putting it up higher and higher and it will get very good at locateing. Dogs trained like this will still follow a trail very well but if you want them to track it is tought to get there nose back down to the ground. A tracking dog is to slow but I like to teach mine they can do it before I start them on air becouse air is so much easier.

Posted by on 06-17-2010 01:47 PM:

Like I said, "I'ma stickin'ta genetic's on this one". Climbin a tree so a pup can find me is much better potrayed by the real thing cuz I only climb a tree one way these day's & my ladder say's Remington on it.

Man made dawgs do not reproduce their likeness of injected ability. Havin'ta man make any traits is not brood stock or gonna eat my feed plain & simple.

If they got it they got it if they don't they don't.........................

Posted by on 06-17-2010 01:51 PM:

Re: Layup Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry
Ol' Two toes has the same opinion as I do. Which doesn't always happen!

Just the one thing Ken & I'ma still scratchin my head over that one....LOL!!

Posted by Okie Dawg on 06-17-2010 02:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Two toes
Like I said, "I'ma stickin'ta genetic's on this one". Climbin a tree so a pup can find me is much better potrayed by the real thing cuz I only climb a tree one way these day's & my ladder say's Remington on it.

Man made dawgs do not reproduce their likeness of injected ability. Havin'ta man make any traits is not brood stock or gonna eat my feed plain & simple.

If they got it they got it if they don't they don't.........................

Well the more natural the better but it doesn't hurt to enhance the natural ability. A lot of pointers would never point if some one doesn't work with them with a wing on a string early on. Just turns there instinks on better and faster.
By all means keep breeding for it. Makes a trainers job a lot easier. LOL

Posted by pigsit on 06-17-2010 03:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
Well the more natural the better but it doesn't hurt to enhance the natural ability. A lot of pointers would never point if some one doesn't work with them with a wing on a string early on. Just turns there instinks on better and faster.
By all means keep breeding for it. Makes a trainers job a lot easier. LOL

Grady, I've got a really dumb question; as you know I'm opposed to "man made dogs"; if you train this dog to tree layups and track on the ground, how does he know to "kick" his training in? Do you program him at the truck or flip a switch, on your Tri-tronics,or can he do this all on his own, no handling required. Thanks, Tom P.S. I thought about this for a minute, and I guess the plauable thing to do would be to first set him on "ground track" and have him tree all the "low hanging fruit" in his range; then "reset" him to "layup" and get all the "fruit" that hasn't been down. Grady, I'm just having a little fun, everyone has their own methods.

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Posted by Justin Smith on 06-17-2010 05:18 PM:

The best dogs can tree coon in any fashion ... they do what needs to be done and they don't take a back seat to any certain style .

When someone starts talking about " specialists" that split or lay-up ... all the time then it sounds to me like a one trick pony who don't like to pull the plow ...

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 06-17-2010 05:29 PM:

Just breed in the Largest Olfactory System you Can (BH) then Add the Hightest Abilities that you can Find .. All the rest will fall in place naturaly without any Training ..

And if the Scenting conditions are right (ie: Wind direction/Mositure/Barometer) You Will produce Hounds that will Strike Coon Sitting in a Tree 100 yard away..

Posted by ronald schultz on 06-17-2010 07:10 PM:

bito' quote from kler kry and kinda from tt's

Layup Dogs
Ol' Two toes has the same opinion as I do. Which doesn't always happen! Alot of dogs wind tree these days, but are slick treers because they only get close. They'd be better off playing horseshoes where close counts.

some of these dogs are probably a result of being "trained" by unqualified trainers... might have had the natural ability but were "?taught?" to "GET ON THERE!!!" before they finished what they were bred to do "and thats find" !!the coon... ( one reason russ has success in this department is his ability to get the young dogs the needed time to develope undisturbed!!! with genetics to put it in the dogs!! ) )well bred dogs allowed to develope into what s in them usually turn out , well "usually " might be an overly hopeful statement but at least "developing" is better than being trained........its alot easier to train a dog wrong than right!!! in my opinion anyway..... !?!??!?! .layup dogs can be amazing!!!!

Posted by Okie Dawg on 06-17-2010 07:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pigsit
Grady, I've got a really dumb question; as you know I'm opposed to "man made dogs"; if you train this dog to tree layups and track on the ground, how does he know to "kick" his training in? Do you program him at the truck or flip a switch, on your Tri-tronics,or can he do this all on his own, no handling required. Thanks, Tom P.S. I thought about this for a minute, and I guess the plauable thing to do would be to first set him on "ground track" and have him tree all the "low hanging fruit" in his range; then "reset" him to "layup" and get all the "fruit" that hasn't been down. Grady, I'm just having a little fun, everyone has their own methods.

The same way they know when to go out side to crap instead of doing it in the house. The earge just hits them when the opportunity is given. LOL

Posted by blueticker on 06-17-2010 09:41 PM:

I don't believe for one second all the special layup training will make a hound one bit better at treeing layups. There either born with the ability or thay never have it. Layup ability has two necessary factors: 1) Scenting Ability, 2) Brains. I do however believe, if your hound gets hunted about twenty hours per week and trees a few layups they'll get better at it.

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