UKC Forums - Bench Shows

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-- Bench Shows (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=343802)

Posted by CHERRY CREEK on 03-25-2010 01:52 PM:

Bench

I am so sick of posts like this that I just had to jump in and say a little something. First of all the guy that started this thread has nothing better to do but to bring up a dead subject that has been beat to death a 100 times over. This guy is entitled to his opinion that's for sure but I think he is a little ridgid in his thinking. He suffers from black and white thinking. It has to be one way or the other! Maybe he would like a good looking coonhound but doesn't know how to go about it. I am not sure. Most people like this in my opinion would jump on the chance to own a top notch "show" dog if they could. They would just be affraid of what their narrow minded friends might say. To each his own, just have to consider the source most of the time.

__________________
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Posted by corky crowder on 03-25-2010 02:37 PM:

I'M GOING TO JUMP IN THE SHOW DOGS ARE NOT HURTING THE COONHOUNDS AS MUCH AS COMP. HUNTINHG .
1 HOUND IS CUT LOOSE TAKES OFF STRAIGHT LINE RUNS BY COONS THEN RUNS UPON AHOT TRACK.
2 HAS TO BE DUMPED ON FEEDER BUCKETS.
3 TREES ON EVERY TREE THE COON TUCHED
4 RUNS OFF GAME THEN FALLS OFF ON A COON TRACK
DONT GET ME WRONG I KNOW THERE ARE A LOT OF GOOD HONEST COONDOGS THAT COMP. HUNT . THINK THE AVERAGE PERSON THAT WANTS TO BREED HIS DOG WHO DOSE HE BREED TO NOT THE GRAND SHOW CH. THEY GO TO GNCH. NOT DOING THIER HOME WORK AS TO HOW THE DOG HUNTS. ME I WANT MY DOG TO GET THE COON CLOSEST TO ME IF NOTHING THERE CHEAK IN I KNOW TO MOVE ON. THATS THE ONLY KIND THAT WILL EAT MY FEED. IF YOU LIKE A DOG LIKE 1TO4 THEN YOU KEEP THAT KIND YOU ARE THE ONE PAYING FOR ITS FEED. SAME WITH SHOW DOGS .

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Posted by Maverick061106 on 03-25-2010 02:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mick mclaughlin
The hunting dogs that are shown, do not bother me. It's the dogs that are bred for show only that bother me.

Thats my point, that I don't seem to be able to make.

Why are folks involved in a hunting breed of dogs, that do not hunt?

I'm obviously the minority on this, So I am officially shut up. I don't get it, but I don't have to.

Poodles used to be retrievers.

I hope folks never say, "this breed used to be coonhounds"

Some breeds can almost say that already.

HAve a good one!

For one, Poodles are STILL retrievers. I know of several that are just as good as any Labrador. Now if you are referring to the miniature sized poodles, that is different - those dogs were not bred to be retrievers, they were bred to be pets. When they have miniature coonhounds, THEN you can complain.

And if your thinking goes, as popular as Labs are as pets, they must not be a retriever any more either, huh? I think the obvious instinct in most retrievers to "fetch" takes care of that one.

I doubt anyone on this thread agrees with Coonhounds being bred ONLY for show. So your argument is weak. You are arguing a point that is best brought up with those breeders, not the ones on here that actually care about thier breeding program and the future of these breeds.

Your original question was "What is the purpose of bench shows in a hunting breed?" I gave you a very true and acceptable answer. Whether you agree with why they are held or not, or if you even understand enough to make sense of it, what I stated was THE answer to your question, outright.

__________________
'PR'Maverick's Smoke 'n Moonshine (two 1st place wins towards NITECH)

Posted by Maverick061106 on 03-25-2010 02:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mick mclaughlin
Problem is I see Grand Show Champion dogs that are never put in the woods.

Still, how is this the "bane" of the hound world? If you don't like it, don't breed to that dog. The title that dog holds is not affecting you or your hound or his ability to hunt.

__________________
'PR'Maverick's Smoke 'n Moonshine (two 1st place wins towards NITECH)

Posted by mick mclaughlin on 03-25-2010 04:45 PM:

Scott I wan't aware it had been beat to death, I am sorry. I don't get on this part of the board that much.

I am truly sorry to beat a dead horse.

I was hoping to get an explanation.

I only brought it up because I noticed so many dogs for sale that were being shown and not hunted.

Maverick, I obviously hit a touchy subject with you, I am sorry.
You say poodles are still retrievers.

really?

that's why sooo many folks use them as hunting dogs?

Be realistic man. that's like saying English Bulldogs are still bred for baiting bulls.

I am sorry I brought it up. I do not understand bench shows, and in fact will pick the ugliest pup every time from a litter. I honestly do not give a darn what a dog looks like.

Ability in the woods is all I care about.

When I show up at a hunt, nobody wonders if I am there for the bench show! lol

I still do not understand why people who do not hunt, choose to show hunting breeds of dogs. Breeding a hunting breed of dogs for anything other then ability is a mistake.

But, as many have pointed out, my opinion doesn't amount for much.

Have a good one folks.

__________________
Faugh A Ballaugh

Posted by Junior L on 03-25-2010 04:55 PM:

I have hunted and showed since I was 13 yrs. old. the first hunt I went to I showed and hunted in it. that was in 1963. I have showed and hunted the same bloodline of walker dogs since we bought dual gr
ch. Table Rock Flying Hawk in 1966.
I believe Gr Ch Show Dog or a titled show dog will be truer to their degree than a nite hunt dog is. the reason I believe this is because nite hunt rules are not as true to proveing and dog is a COONDOG instead of a tree happy competition dog followed by a handler with a slick tounge.
Show dogs have standards to go by and the judge and spectators can see all. I realize there is some shady judging goes on but not so much in bigger shows. Most of the time you pay for the judges opinion you get it.
My point is don't harp on we that like to show dogs whether they are hunted or not until you are sure the nite hunt rules are proving the winning dog in each cast to be the best coon in the cast.

__________________
Tablerock

Posted by LMBEDDINGFIELD on 03-25-2010 05:31 PM:

Very Well put Jr.

I hope this gentleman understands a little better that the total confomation of a dog is more important than anything.

The breed standards as written are not just for the show side of a hound. They were developed to show what is expected of a breed to be able to function in the woods as a hunting dog and to do the job that they were breed to do.

Also, just because a person choose to show a dog in competition in stead of hunt the dog in competion is a much that persons right as it is for a person to pick the ugly dog out of a litter.....

We know that not every dog that is shown in a show ring has the perfect conformation, in fact that is why we have judges and why it is their responsibility to use the breed standards to best judge the dogs presented to them on any given day.

As a show person that hunts also trust me there are many hours that go into training, conditioning and preperation for the shows that we attend. I do not have a hound in my kennel that has not seen a coon and knows what to do with one. We hunt one very hard and have a 4-1/2 month old pup that will be in the woods soon. I CHOOSE not to hunt some but we swim them for conditioning and I will put them in a treeing contest every now and then just to show some people that yes they know what a coon is....

Please do not judge the show dog or the show handler until you have walked a mile in our shoes too....

We know well and good what our dogs are intended for and most of us will use them for their true purpose and match the breed standard in the process....

__________________
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Flat Rock Kennels Home of
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Posted by Cleo on 03-25-2010 05:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Junior L
I have hunted and showed since I was 13 yrs. old. the first hunt I went to I showed and hunted in it. that was in 1963. I have showed and hunted the same bloodline of walker dogs since we bought dual gr
ch. Table Rock Flying Hawk in 1966.
I believe Gr Ch Show Dog or a titled show dog will be truer to their degree than a nite hunt dog is. the reason I believe this is because nite hunt rules are not as true to proveing and dog is a COONDOG instead of a tree happy competition dog followed by a handler with a slick tounge.
Show dogs have standards to go by and the judge and spectators can see all. I realize there is some shady judging goes on but not so much in bigger shows. Most of the time you pay for the judges opinion you get it.
My point is don't harp on we that like to show dogs whether they are hunted or not until you are sure the nite hunt rules are proving the winning dog in each cast to be the best coon in the cast.

Well said.

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Posted by Cleo on 03-25-2010 05:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by LMBEDDINGFIELD
Very Well put Jr.

I hope this gentleman understands a little better that the total confomation of a dog is more important than anything.

The breed standards as written are not just for the show side of a hound. They were developed to show what is expected of a breed to be able to function in the woods as a hunting dog and to do the job that they were breed to do.

Also, just because a person choose to show a dog in competition in stead of hunt the dog in competion is a much that persons right as it is for a person to pick the ugly dog out of a litter.....

We know that not every dog that is shown in a show ring has the perfect conformation, in fact that is why we have judges and why it is their responsibility to use the breed standards to best judge the dogs presented to them on any given day.

As a show person that hunts also trust me there are many hours that go into training, conditioning and preperation for the shows that we attend. I do not have a hound in my kennel that has not seen a coon and knows what to do with one. We hunt one very hard and have a 4-1/2 month old pup that will be in the woods soon. I CHOOSE not to hunt some but we swim them for conditioning and I will put them in a treeing contest every now and then just to show some people that yes they know what a coon is....

Please do not judge the show dog or the show handler until you have walked a mile in our shoes too....

We know well and good what our dogs are intended for and most of us will use them for their true purpose and match the breed standard in the process....

Well said, too.

Posted by mick mclaughlin on 03-25-2010 07:21 PM:

Well it's obvious I am on an island here.

I don't get it folks, but obviously, I don't have to!

I agree to let it drop, and I certainly would have never brought it up if I knew it had been beat to death in the past.

If you honestly feel that bench shows is the best way to promote a hunting breed then by all means do it!

There are a bunch of pretty Redbones out there, so in your opinions you have been successful!

It's like arguing politics, I'm not gonna change your opinion and your not gonna change mine!

I really didn't expect the opinions to be this one sided. It is becoming increasingly obvious the direction that UKC has went.

Have a good one, folks! Enjoy your dogs!

__________________
Faugh A Ballaugh

Posted by Maverick061106 on 03-25-2010 08:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mick mclaughlin
I really didn't expect the opinions to be this one sided. It is becoming increasingly obvious the direction that UKC has went.

I don't know what opinions are one-sided? YOU are the one against showing. Everyone else here is trying to explain to you how hunting and showing help the breed together...

quote:
Originally posted by mick mclaughlin
You say poodles are still retrievers.

really?

that's why sooo many folks use them as hunting dogs?

Be realistic man. that's like saying English Bulldogs are still bred for baiting bulls.

Yes, Standard Poodles are still used as hunting retrievers. The Hunting Retriever Club, Inc. (associated with UKC) has always allowed Standard Poodles to enter their hunt tests. There are other clubs who promote the as well. http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2...rieving-a-duck/

And just for the record, comparing the breeding of a dog bred for a purpose that is now illegal is really no comparison to a dog bred to hunt.

quote:
Originally posted by mick mclaughlin
Breeding a hunting breed of dogs for anything other then ability is a mistake.

I agree. You need to be bashing the people who do this - not us. Whoever said we were breeding show hounds? Just because you put a dog in a show does not mean that was what it was bred for.

Again. You asked what the purpose was for a bench show. We told you. Several times. If you do not like the answer, tough. We will go on hunting and showing our hounds and you can go on hunting your ugly ones.

__________________
'PR'Maverick's Smoke 'n Moonshine (two 1st place wins towards NITECH)

Posted by TRRedbones on 03-25-2010 08:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mick mclaughlin
Well it's obvious I am on an island here.

I don't get it folks, but obviously, I don't have to!

There are a bunch of pretty Redbones out there, so in your opinions you have been successful!

Now see there... in one sentence, you agree that your opinion is just yours and doesn't matter in the scheme of things... and then in the next, you go and make a comment incinuating red dogs are just 'pretty'......

Seriously, for every good dog (hunt or show) of ANY breed, you will find 10 that wouldn't please U. That's just fact.

The reason U are standing alone on this post is because everyone knows this road has been travelled way too much.

My husband and I are a team ~ he hunts the dogs, I show them, and what we do with the dogs that we own is our choice, OUR right, and OUR business. We currently own one of the nicest walker show dogs in the nation AND one of the redbone breeds BEST all-time ever hunting stud dogs... we are equally proud of them both.

This kinda reminds me of of the many many lobbyist out there that are also trying to convince the nation that we should not have the right to bear arms. This is still America and as long as that's the case.... you do what you want, I'll do what I want, we can agree to disagree, and how bout we DON'T start posts cracking on someone elses right to own, breed, and campaign dogs as they see fit. Just a thought.

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Posted by Maverick061106 on 03-25-2010 08:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by TRRedbones
This is still America, and as long as that's the case.... you do what you want, I'll do what I want, we can agree to disagree, and how bout we DON'T start posts cracking on someone elses right to own, breed, and campaign dogs as they see fit. Just a thought.

Good thought.

__________________
'PR'Maverick's Smoke 'n Moonshine (two 1st place wins towards NITECH)

Posted by Geminite on 03-25-2010 08:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
To keep the women out of the woods and in the clubhouse.

Lmao

Anyways, MICK, I am actually somewhat in agreement with you. There are two sides to the coin though. There have been many good points brought up. One that I think is the most important is to HUNT with the dogs that you want to breed to. If they please you, that's what counts.

I don't think people should be breeding just for the purpose of a bench show or conformation show, just the same someone that strictly breeds a dog for it's abilities needs to make sure the dogs have proper conformation.

This IS still America! The dogs you are feeding have to please YOU and ONLY you. Just my opinion!

__________________
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Posted by rabbit1 on 03-30-2010 07:13 PM:

Thank You!!!!!!!!! The dog shows I have been to, and it has been quite a few over the years the bench show dogs I have seen have looked like models. I am very glad to know that some real hunting dogs are also on the bench. My son has one that he hunts and shows. AThanks guys and have a great Easter.

Teresa

Posted by TamarackKennels on 03-30-2010 07:39 PM:

I do not know about everyone else but I breed when I do have litters on the ground. I try to do Dual Purpose Dogs.
Ones that you can show and hunt...
Like O.W. Hill (bless his soul) said:

"I hunt my show dogs, and I show my hunt dogs."

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Posted by john Duemmer on 03-30-2010 09:33 PM:

Gonna climb way out on a limb and agree with Mick. When i see dogs being advertised at stud or as a brood bitch based on a show title i cringe. Responsible breeders have a difficult enough time trying to produce litters with a high percentage of pups that turn out.
A Pretty hound is nice to look at and if they happen to be a coondog all the better i dont believe they should ever be bred based on looks alone. As far as the argument about breed standards assuring dogs that will be able to get the job done physically, thats balooney. The fastest track dog i ever took to the woods was a cur about as tall as a beagle. I have seen a three legged dog keep up with the best of em and as for all that they have to be catfooted stuff I have a leopard cur right now thats kinda flat footed and iv never seen him foot sore no matter how hard hes hunted.
My signature is my opinion.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by Reds4Me on 03-30-2010 10:08 PM:

Then lobby to change the breed standards if you don't agree with it.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 03-30-2010 10:33 PM:

Wouldnt lobby far change because it just doesnt mean a thing as far as coondogs go. When picking a pup there are so many important things to consider, Parents style in the woods, their gets style in the woods, the pups mouth, then i want to see the litter at feeding time to evaluate aggression as best i can, then i want to see them run around to see how naturall they use the nose, and the list goes on and on but looks is WAY WAY down on my list.
Im just an old coonhunter but evaluating a hunting dog based on looks is just silly.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by eagle1 on 03-30-2010 11:06 PM:

WHY IS IT NO ONE CAN BE HAPPY WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE WE CAN DO ANYTHING WE PRETTY MUCH WANT THIER ARE ALOT OF COUNTRIES OUT THIER THAT YOU CANT EVEN OWN A DOG SO THIS MY MY OPINION WE HAVE A CHOICE IF I CHOOSE TO HUNT A DOG OR SHOW A DOG WHY DOES IT MATTER JUST BE LUCKY YOU LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY TO MAKE THAT DECISION.I HAVE BEEN TO MANY 3RD WORLD COUNTRIES AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE THAT KIND OF OPINIONS ABOUT WHY COONHOUNDS SHOULDNT BE SHOWN WELL LETS PUT THEM OVER THIER AND SEE HOW FAST THIER OPINION CHANGES.

MIKE SCHLOSSER
U.S.ARMY AIRBORNE RANGER
COMBAT VETERAN

Posted by TED HUGHES on 03-31-2010 12:54 AM:

Mr Schlosser, I could'nt said it better myself!

__________________
TED HUGHES

Posted by eagle1 on 03-31-2010 02:35 AM:

Thanks mr.hughs we just need to appriciate what we have and enjoy every moment we have weather it's with family or with hounds...

Posted by on 03-31-2010 02:44 AM:

It's SIMPLE

FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION!

Posted by Penny Jessup on 03-31-2010 02:50 AM:

I agree this issue of hunt vs. show is a old issue. People's opinions are pretty much set and we can argue until the cows come home and not agree.

But, one thing is certain......the ANTI-HUNTERS out there are hoping the days of hunting are NUMBERED. The very LAST THING we need to do is to argue among ourselves!!!!!!!!!

We can argue that the pleasure hunter is better than the competition hunter or that the hot nosed dogs are a detriment to the breed that dogs can't actually trail as good as they used to and that breeding dogs for quick strike and quick tree is bad.

Point is.....we all need to keep the big picture in mind. As has been pointed out....hunting lands are dwindling. It may seem silly to you that people like to show their dogs, but how many decades do you think it will be before people will only be able to talk about how they "used" to hunt actual live raccoons?

I bet several of you can name this farm or that land that you used to hunt, but now there are houses there and you can't hunt it anymore.
Face it....we will be in crisis soon enough in the upcoming years to come. Let's not speed up the process by this silly bickering and arguing among ourselves!!!! We are playing right into their hands!! Ever heard of "divide and conquer?"

Right now, there are battles going on among deer hunters vs. hound hunters. That's stupid also. You can bet the ANTI's are taking notice and are just waiting for a vulnerable time to introduce this piece of legislation or that wildlife regulation that limits hunting of some form. All they need is a foot in the door!

Let's look at the big picture and live and let live when it comes to owning hounds.....period! We need each other, no matter that we might not agree on every little aspect!

Don't sweat the small stuff!

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Posted by eagle1 on 03-31-2010 03:00 AM:

Thanks penny I have talked to you a few times me and my wife own honey just to let you know who is giving you thanks anyway just enjoy your hounds no matter what you do with them..

Mike schlosser
u.s.army airborne ranger
combat veteran

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