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-- Rules Question: Treeing on closed tree (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=339878)

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Rule 4(k) states that any dog(s) that are declared treed after a tree has been closed will be considered "split" and recorded on scorecard as such. With this new rule implimented for 2009/2010; those dogs will be minused for leaving their "split" position even in the case where they might not have obviously left.

Prior to the new rule of 4(k), judges simply would not accept a tree call after a tree had been closed unless it was obvious to the judge that the dog(s) was in fact split. The theory was that you should not minus a dog for something they didn;'t do such as leaving from a split when it wasn't obvious that that's what happened. Not true anymore.

Now 4(k) minuses those dogs for leaving regardless of whether they actually did or not. It leaves it in the hands of the handlers to choose whether or not to declare a dog treed after a tree has been closed. Not a good idea to do so unless it is "obvious". Because if they choose to declare a dog treed after a tree has been closed then they will be subject to being minused for "leaving" should they be anywhere other than separate from those that were declared treed on the closed tree.

The only time a dog is considered "shut out" on strike is when it it is on a tree and eligible for tree points. In the case where dogs have a coon caught there is no "tree". Any dogs declared treed result in deleting those tree points. So, any dogs that are a participant in the case of a coon caught, even though "shut out", when the judge arrives will recieve plus strike points.

In Joe's scenario; Dog D recieves minus 125 and Dog B recieves minus 75 tree points for leaving their "called split" position. All dogs declared struck and "at the scene" of the coon caught when the judge arrives recieve their strike points plus.

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Joe

You must not of been hunting deuce. He would not have been in a hole or fighting a coon.

I just want to know why dog c was not handled after his or her 5 was up. I've been in a few hunts and do not konw all the rules but I have been in a few split tree situations and after the 5 was up on that dogs I think most would let you go handle the split dog. I think that would have maybe helped the situation but maybe not! That sounds like a crazy deal.

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quote:

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Originally posted by elvis
the only time i could see it comming into play would be at the end of hunt time, any other time it would just be a terrible call.

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quote:

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Originally posted by S & N Rains
I just want to know why dog c was not handled after his or her 5 was up. I've been in a few hunts and do not konw all the rules but I have been in a few split tree situations and after the 5 was up on that dogs I think most would let you go handle the split dog. I think that would have maybe helped the situation but maybe not! That sounds like a crazy deal.

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You guys are all making things out to be something that it just wasnt.

Heck, it was my dog that we walked off of and was declared treed. I was the judge....what was I supposed to do in that case? You bet if I wasn't the judge, I would have asked that I be allowed to go tie my dog...but that didn't seem to be an option as we had two other dogs to score, that were declared treed in the opposite direction as my dog.... I treed my dog as we were walking to the other dogs.....The MOH gave me the duty of being the judge. Now...who do you think I should send to handle my dog? The fellow who's dog wasn't declared treed? Well...how would I as the judge take his call if he left the cast to handle my dog? One of the fellows who's dog we were going in to handle? You want your tree scored without the opportunity to look at it?

Look folks...you can twist this around any way you want, and make it look like someone got "screwed"...but that is just not the case. If anyone took a bad break, it was likely me. My young female was happy with treeing into the exposed roots of the maple tree that was on the steep bank of the river. The way I look at it...if I'm hauling a dog to a hunt that won't stay treed till I get there.....Shame on me.....

I didn't post this to point out that someone got screwed...I didn't post this to point out "holes" in the rules.... I thought it was an "out of the ordinary" situation that presented a unique set of scoring challenges. The members of the cast discussed the scoring, read the rules on the back of the scorecard and AGREED (quite mistakenly as it turns out according to Allen) on how we would score it. Nobody felt as though they were taken advantage of or cheated.

As it turned out,...that was the only coon that we scored on that night, and all of the dogs looked pretty darn SORRY...we all ended up in the negative column by the end of two hours......

Please don't assume that by posting this, you can spin this around to "someone got cheated"......didn't happen.

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Joe, it would have been helpfull to know that you were the judge, as it seemed that soem fella was dinied the right to handle his dog.

With this last post of yours I understand that you did in fact handle that part correctly.

I still say there were at least 2 in-experienced handlers in the cast lol

quote:

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Originally posted by treberta
Joe, it would have been helpfull to know that you were the judge, as it seemed that soem fella was dinied the right to handle his dog.

With this last post of yours I understand that you did in fact handle that part correctly.

I still say there were at least 2 in-experienced handlers in the cast lol

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Joe, I think this scenario is a perfect example of how 4(k) throws a ringer in the mix due to the intent of the rule.

As we all know, after a tree has been closed no other dogs may be declared treed on that closed tree. So, the intent of 4(k) is that if a handler calls his dog treed after a tree has been closed; that dog will go on the scorecard as a "separate" tree and treated as such regardless of whether or not the dog is or isn't separate. If the dog is found on the closed tree the dog is to receive minus tree points. Again, for leaving whether it did or didn't.

Prior to 4(k) the policy was that a tree call was not to be accepted after a tree had been closed unless the dog was "obviously" split. (judge's decision) It was felt that the problem with this practice was that at the end of the hunt a handler was held at the mercy of a judge when determining whether or not the dog was split from a closed tree. Then upon arrival at the closed tree you find the uncalled dog is in fact split but the hunt time has expired. Now it's too late to make a call that could have made a difference in the outcome of the cast in terms of winning or losing.

Rule 4(k) puts that 'call' in the hands of the handler. If they choose to call their dog treed after a tree has been closed; they are simply subject to the consequences good or bad. Unfortunately, in most cases probably bad.

This would include a situation such as Joe's. They may not be involved in the same scoring situation whether it be a tree or otherwise. The only exception to that would be if it was determined that dog C left its tree and went to Dogs D and B.

As someone mentioned, the only time an experienced handler might consider taking such a chance is at the end of the hunt. Goes to show how 4(k) can have an ill effect shoudl a handler not be aware of how it can bite them.

Re: 4k

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Originally posted by BearCreekWalker
I just printed off new score card there is no rule 4 k on it so therefore it does not mean anything.
let's get it on the printable score card so we all can read it
thanks john williams.

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__________________
Let's go huntin

Re: 4k

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Originally posted by BearCreekWalker
I just printed off new score card there is no rule 4 k on it so therefore it does not mean anything.
let's get it on the printable score card so we all can read it
thanks john williams.

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