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-- Performance Point Increase (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=323284)
Posted by Luvmyhorse on 01-07-2010 12:43 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
well i'll say it again..i think a stud owner with a dog like trackman is making out like a bandit..i think stud owners should pay a small nomination fee for all litters sired and not have a regular fee..if the dog sires 4 litters a yr it would cost a 100 bucks (25.00 per litter) and a dog sires 25 litters would pay 625.00..i'm sure UKC has the data of performance sired litters to see if this would raise the points or lessen them,,i don't know, just a thought!!
You have probably suggested the best solution if you want more dollars put in the Performance Program. That is exactly how the Quarter Horse Assn.'s incentive fund works. The performance program was tailored after that program and AQHA started out the nomination fee for the sire was based on the advertised stud fee. That soon out grew it's self and then they modified it to be based on the number of mares bred each year and turned in on the stallion breeding report in the fall. The more mares a stallion breeds, the more it will cost to enroll that stallion in the program. They have a cap for the most you would have to pay for those stallions that breed a large amount of mares. This keeps the small breeders that only breed a few able to afford to participate.
Bare in mind the reason the point value is going down is because you have more pups enrolled and earning points, and older enrolled dogs still earning points from when the program started. That will certainly spread the dollars out at a lessor value . The quarter horse point value started out being worth a good amount of money, and over the years has dwindled down to a small amount. However, the horse can earn incentive fund money for life and it isn't unusual to see one earn $1000's of dollars each year. It has leveled out and has been close to the same value per point for several years.
I think this is the best breeder's program going, and if I were going to change anything, it would be maybe changing the enrollment fee on the sires based on litters registered in a year by that sire.__________________
"The only place that success comes before work is in the Dictionary"
Oakridge Treeing Walkers and Newlin Quarter Horses
www.oakridgecoonhounds.com
Posted by Luvmyhorse on 01-07-2010 12:51 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Will Walker
I agree,but its pretty evident that its gonna be "broke" before long.
Will,
As long as stud owners keep enrolling their stud dogs, and the litter's get paid in, and the pup owners pay their $25 to enroll the pup, it will never "be broke". The point values may not be what they were in the past, but there will always be money to pay out.__________________
"The only place that success comes before work is in the Dictionary"
Oakridge Treeing Walkers and Newlin Quarter Horses
www.oakridgecoonhounds.com
Posted by Oak Ridge on 01-07-2010 12:16 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by elvis
Lets see if I got this straight.
You guys say youve lost hundreds and thousands of dollars in the ss program and never saw a return, but you dont want to put a nickel more into a program that is putting money back in your pocket tenfold?
elvis,
I didn't say I would not put a nickle more. I did not say i would not pay more in....I said I don't believe the system is broken, and "fixing a non-broken system may end up breaking it!
All of the assumptions and cipherin that's been done up to this point is calculated on the current number of dogs entered in the system. Pretty simple math to increase the fees, without a decrease in enrollment, and you have more money in the fund....BUT...history in other similar programs shows us that as the fees increase, the funds decrease because participation drops off with each increase in fees.
We are comparing the Performance Program to the Super Stakes, and that is NOT apples to apples. The American Quarter Horse association has a program that is so similar t the Performance Program it is scary. Sires pay in, mare owners pay in, and foals are paid up when they are registered. Points are earned at AQHA shows, and are calculated by the number of entries. At the end of the year, the math is the same....total points awarded, divided by the total funds(total paid in - 10% for AQHA) = point value
Just like the Performance Program, the first few years the point value was very lucrative to the early adoptors. As the years go by, the point value continued to drop. As a result of dropping point value, AQJHA decided to increase the sire fee, increase the nomination fees as well. The result is that for those that opted to stay in...it got very expensive. And most people simply opted out. What was once a strong program that the average person who was going up and down the road showing horses, became an elite game where earning points was more of a prestige thing, with point values in the 100 dollar range.
Sires were paying in between 500 to 1000 a year, and getting checks for thier "10% of winnings in the amouth of 20 to 30 dollars...
So I'm not saying that I would not put more money in it at all. I'm saying that I would be VERY careful about changes that are made to the program, and i don't think raising the sire fee is the way to go.
Personally, I would like to see a yearly "renewal" fee. for eligible dogs. A pup owner would pay the pup up for the same fee as today at the time of registration. Then each year you would have to "subscribe" to the Performance program if you intend to continue to be a part of the program. Make it a small fee, $5, $10....whatever. That way a five year old Grand Night Champion that wins at Grand American, Winter Classic, and Autumn Oaks has put something in the program THAT YEAR, not five years before.__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels
Posted by Will Walker on 01-07-2010 01:20 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Hey Will, I didn't intend to get your balls in an uproar, I just asked how much a 10 dog win has to pay to make you guys happy? I think it is a fair question.
i didnt mean to get in an uproar jim, but im all about improving the program. sure,its nice now, but if we can make it better,im all for it.
Posted by Ben Crocker on 01-07-2010 02:31 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
In doing the math it becomes quite evident that the biggest percentage of the monies in the fund is that of the perms and litters.
Example:
1,000 Sires @ $100 each = $100,000.00
There's over half a million in the fund right now. Where's the other $400,000.00 coming from? Yep, perms and litters!
Point......raising perm and litter fees $5 or $10 would increase the fund numbers substantially. Even more so than doubling the sire fees. Plus, the idea of doubling the sire fees might result in less sires enrolled?
The point value being a hundred bucks or better is still a great return for the nominal nomination fees. Is the average hunter interested in a slight increase in nomination fees to increase the point value? You tell us. It's your program.
Allen, just send me 2.5% of the adminastration fee and I'll try to come up with the best solution You have my address buddy. Just send it out and I'll get to work. lol
ps. I do think the increase in paying the pups up would help drastically. Make it $40 per pup by 6 months old, $100 up to a year, and $200 after a year. With that said, still please send the 2.5% for I can brain storm some more
__________________
989-529-8563
Posted by Travis Eastman on 01-07-2010 02:52 PM:
I will get to work on it for 1% LOL
Posted by on 01-07-2010 05:10 PM:
I'd still like for some of you who think the program needs changed to step up and tell us how much cash you want for a win in a 10 dog field?
Posted by treberta on 01-07-2010 05:19 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I'd still like for some of you who think the program needs changed to step up and tell us how much cash you want for a win in a 10 dog field?
Jim, 143 is a great payout for a 10 dog hunt but I think MOST are worried how much it will depreciate over the next 2 years.
I myself have almost 8 points coming to me from 2009 and 143$ is alot different then 70 or 80$.
Posted by Ben Crocker on 01-07-2010 05:48 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I'd still like for some of you who think the program needs changed to step up and tell us how much cash you want for a win in a 10 dog field?
What I would want or what I would be satisfied with is two questions..Might want to re-word that..lol
IMO, if there was a way to keep the pay out for a full point at or around $100 I think it would be great
__________________
989-529-8563
Posted by Travis Eastman on 01-07-2010 06:39 PM:
I would say leave it alone for now. If it breaks $100 for a full point tweek it just a touch to stabilize the point value at $100
