UKC Forums - Can the fast and far running dog be kept in the small hunting plots of tomorrow?

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-- Can the fast and far running dog be kept in the small hunting plots of tomorrow? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=319156)

Posted by pigsit on 12-18-2009 04:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
No that is the common sence part or I was talking about although some of it can begreatly altered.

I completely disagree. I have broke out my share of pups, re-worked my share of damaged dogs, and hunted some great hounds that belonged to me and others. The common denominator they all had was their inheirited natural ability! From the time they started treeing, started hunting, started tracking, started locating was pretty much the style they had the rest of their lives. You as a hunter can "adjust" and "tweek" a few things, but they are still stuck with the natural ability they were born with. Sure you can teack them to handle, and even hunt a pattern, but youcan't teach them to be a coon dog. Case in point, the only two dogs who ever died of old age in my pens was a black dog and a walker about fifteen years apart. I got both of them at less than a year old, and both were loaded with natural ability; their first seasons they treed coons all over my old dog, so I sold my old dog. They both treed coon, not because it was taught, but because it was natural for them to do so. They could tree a coon under your feet or reach deep to strike and take the track where ever it went to tree it; they were coon treeing machines. All they required from me was a dry box, feed, and a ride to the woods. I didn't type all this to change your mind, or to get you out of your "fantasy world", but to tell you the truth. The great one are born, not made. Tom

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-18-2009 04:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pigsit
I completely disagree. I have broke out my share of pups, re-worked my share of damaged dogs, and hunted some great hounds that belonged to me and others. The common denominator they all had was their inheirited natural ability! From the time they started treeing, started hunting, started tracking, started locating was pretty much the style they had the rest of their lives. You as a hunter can "adjust" and "tweek" a few things, but they are still stuck with the natural ability they were born with. Sure you can teack them to handle, and even hunt a pattern, but youcan't teach them to be a coon dog. Case in point, the only two dogs who ever died of old age in my pens was a black dog and a walker about fifteen years apart. I got both of them at less than a year old, and both were loaded with natural ability; their first seasons they treed coons all over my old dog, so I sold my old dog. They both treed coon, not because it was taught, but because it was natural for them to do so. They could tree a coon under your feet or reach deep to strike and take the track where ever it went to tree it; they were coon treeing machines. All they required from me was a dry box, feed, and a ride to the woods. I didn't type all this to change your mind, or to get you out of your "fantasy world", but to tell you the truth. The great one are born, not made. Tom

Tom you need to go back and read the whole post. I know they have to be born with the instincts to become a great dog. I said you could alter the instincs. I gave an example of that. Like makeing a herding dog drive a heard away from you. It is completely against there instincts to do so. A dog that is bred to go far and fast instinct to move can be taught to hunt closer. A hound with the instinct to track can be taught to track only one thing. It is all training that alters the instinct.

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Posted by coldtrail on 12-18-2009 04:55 PM:

the problem with some dogs today is they straight line out of the box a half mile or more before they settle down.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-18-2009 05:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by coldtrail
the problem with some dogs today is they straight line out of the box a half mile or more before they settle down.

YEP I would agree. I have seen casts were they scored a tree then had to call time out to go find other dogs. If they beat there dog for working the same track and wind up at the same tree. All they can do is run deep before they start hunting and all the owner can do is hope he is still in hearing distance. I don't get it but the ones that likes that don't get me likeing mine either. LOL

Posted by pigsit on 12-18-2009 05:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
Tom you need to go back and read the whole post. I know they have to be born with the instincts to become a great dog. I said you could alter the instincs. I gave an example of that. Like makeing a herding dog drive a heard away from you. It is completely against there instincts to do so. A dog that is bred to go far and fast instinct to move can be taught to hunt closer. A hound with the instinct to track can be taught to track only one thing. It is all training that alters the instinct.

I have read the entire post numerous times, and I still disagree. many of the things yourare espousing are completely against the natural instincts of the hound. Granted, if a dog hunts too wide, you can adjust this with tri-tronics, what can you adjust about a dog that doesn't hunt, what do you adjust on the non-treeing dog? I want that hound to have all the natural ability possible to pack into one hide; I want him to have the desire to seek game, strike, trail, locate and tree. These things are in the breeding, not the training; it might be nice, on occassion, to have a dog that can sit, heel and stay, but it's not required at my house. However, consistantly treeing coon is. Tom

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Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 12-18-2009 05:31 PM:

I'm with Tom

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Posted by jculler8 on 12-18-2009 05:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
I dont know how many times i have drawn a dog that has obviously been broke from covering other dogs.

These dogs can look pretty good in the company of average dogs, but If there is a real fast coondog in the cast they can look pathetic....They get beat on every coon and usually slinking around in the brush at every tree...real impressive.

I have to believe you would end up with similar concequences trying to "train" a dogs hunting style.

I would consider the type of dog you described as partially broke from covering.

If a dog is OBVIOUSLY BROKE from covering and its done right, you surely won't see that dog slinking around any trees!

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-18-2009 09:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Briar
I'm with Tom

Well so am I. I agreed with every word he said in that post. Don't know what is up his tail but I payed him a complyment one day about him training more dogs than most have and he got mad about that too. SOOOOOOOOO what can you do.

Posted by pigsit on 12-19-2009 02:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
Well so am I. I agreed with every word he said in that post. Don't know what is up his tail but I payed him a complyment one day about him training more dogs than most have and he got mad about that too. SOOOOOOOOO what can you do.

Grady, I'm not mad about anything, and if you reread my posts you will not find a negative word any where; all I did was disagree with your methods. I am always open to new methods and ideas, but in my opinion, you cannot substitute training for inheirted natural ability. If you have a dog that is "man-made", and can consistantly tree coon; I would love to see it operate. This winter I'm hauling a two year old male and year old half- sister off the Duke dog. The male was high scoring dog at the bluetick sectional last fall and finsihed to NTCH in three hunts; the female hunts out good, can flat move a track, pretty accurate, and a hard tree dog, but she may be just a "tad" too independent for me. My point being, neither of these dogs has been trained, just exposed to coon hunting; they pretty much operate off of natural ability. Tom

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Posted by blake jones on 12-19-2009 02:24 PM:

hounds are pretty much like any other athelete. it first takes ability, and then it takes more ability. pair that with a good coach and you will have a great combination.
take 2 hounds with the same ability and put one with a veteran hunter and the other with someone that knows nothing about coon hunting, which do you think will be the better hound. both hounds will most likely tree coons but the hound with the veteran "coach" will be the better hound 9 out of 10 times.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-19-2009 06:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pigsit
Grady, I'm not mad about anything, and if you reread my posts you will not find a negative word any where; all I did was disagree with your methods. I am always open to new methods and ideas, but in my opinion, you cannot substitute training for inheirted natural ability. If you have a dog that is "man-made", and can consistantly tree coon; I would love to see it operate. This winter I'm hauling a two year old male and year old half- sister off the Duke dog. The male was high scoring dog at the bluetick sectional last fall and finsihed to NTCH in three hunts; the female hunts out good, can flat move a track, pretty accurate, and a hard tree dog, but she may be just a "tad" too independent for me. My point being, neither of these dogs has been trained, just exposed to coon hunting; they pretty much operate off of natural ability. Tom

Well see Tom I agree with all of that too. I think you can teach them to come and to heal with out hurting there hunting ability I( if done right and at the right time) and some to not range so far if done from pup. But the hunting end of it has to be bred in. Can't train desire you can only hope to control it at times.
Oh I am not saying any of this is what you would want to do for the best comp. dog either. Although I here the Bullet or Bullet II dog was an off leash dog.
I realise we wouldn't train the same but I think you would be surprised in how much we would too.

Posted by Jay Bird 76 on 12-19-2009 06:41 PM:

A lot of people think their "hard hunting go yonder" do is working a tough track, when it's really chasing foxs or deer and then sometimes run across a hot coon track and fall up treed....lol.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-19-2009 07:11 PM:

To be honest in a not so honest world I was wishing I had a go far fast dog last night. Wasn't much out early. My pup treed again by hisself but in a BIG den. The black acted like he couldn't smell nothing (never opened once) didn't leave him out long though and were I put him out I let the blue out first for a couple minutes. The first dump my blue pup was eating deer poop and showing more interest than I though he should. It was fresh but that is were he went on in and treed a den.
I loaded him and took him about a mile were I knew I could dump him on deer. Parked the truck with the brights in there eyes,let the pup out,turned my light on high, started walking toward the deer and turn the pup loose in there direction.
YEP he started running for them, let him get as close as he was going to be able to. Oh by the way allready had the collar set on FRY pushed the button and held it till it shut off. Then loaded him back up and drove down to the drive into this place and were the deer was and let the black out. I have seen him running across a hay medow, see deer and throw the breaks on and go WAY AROUND them.
But any way last night I might could had found a coon with a wide running dog. Got sick and had to come in early too. I was home by about 10 pm or so.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-29-2009 01:21 AM:

When I get this walker pup hunting I will be able to answer this post myself. She is 7 weaks old tomorrow and got more energy than any hound I have ever had. Standing on a treadmill about 4" off the floor to day and tried to jump over the back of my ridgeback. Didn't work out for her. Bounced off looked up and looked surprised she didn't make it.
Wonders he don't just bite her in half but he knows I would hurt him for it. He hates her though but then Dawg hates all pups.

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