UKC Forums - Wow....would this ever change the game!

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-- Wow....would this ever change the game! (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=303294)

Posted by Cornbelt on 10-02-2009 06:31 AM:

I think it would be a good rule. Any dog coming in after another dog has been treed for 5 minutes deserves minus. If he was working the same track he needs minused for being to slow. If he was not working the same track he deserves minused for leaving the track he was working. IMO this rule would favor a hard hunting, good tracking dog...... why would that be a bad thing?

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Posted by honalieh on 10-02-2009 07:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john nannemann
i think this rule change would FAVOR a slick treeing idiot. especially with the recast rule.

Exactly what I was thinking when I read this post.

Posted by SLICK50 on 10-02-2009 01:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by honalieh
Exactly what I was thinking when I read this post.

So youre saying that if a dog flies in there and slick trees in say 1 minute. And youre dog or another dog comes into the tree after 5 minutes is should not be minused??????????? lol what a crock

If youre dog doesn't have enough sense to check a tree then it doesn't have any business there in the first place!!!!!!!!!!! Especially taking it more then 5 minutes to come strutting into a slick tree!!!!!!!!! Of course it deserves minus!!!!!!!!!!

Ukc needs to reward the COON TREEING DOG NOT THE ME TOO-ER OR THE SLOW TRACKING DOG.

If it takes youre dog more then 1 minute to cover a treed dog then it only deserves 25 points. That's why ukc rewards the me too-er and pkc rewards to coon treeing dog.

If i had to hunt a dog that covered another dog on a regular basis i would sell everything and quite!!!! That's a guarantee. If my dog even trees with another dog after that dog has been treed then it will be sorry. Theres nothing better then drawing a 4 dog cast and on the first drop seeing all 4 of them split tree and all 4 have a coon. Usually a 4 dog walker cast imagine that.

Posted by john nannemann on 10-02-2009 01:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cornbelt
I think it would be a good rule. Any dog coming in after another dog has been treed for 5 minutes deserves minus. If he was working the same track he needs minused for being to slow. If he was not working the same track he deserves minused for leaving the track he was working. IMO this rule would favor a hard hunting, good tracking dog...... why would that be a bad thing?

ANOTHER actual situation from several years ago. draw out, 4 dog cast. guide says he has a feeder about 200yds. straight in the way we're going to cut em. MY dog then VERY independent. we cut, the guides dog and two others chasing him go STRAIGHT( you couldn't have drawn a straighter line with a ruler) to the feeder and fall treed. whole thing takes maybe 2 min. my very independent dog goes deep (300 yrd) right handed and strikes for 25. we go in to tree and plus it, the whole time my dog steadily moving "his" track in a big arch and getting closer. we move off to recast the others to mine, him STEADILY trailing rolls in, locates on the tree we just treed up, and starts treeing. and i can give you at least 5 good references on this dog( dead now) and a video from a national t.v. appearance on adventure bound outdoors treeing 5 single in an hour and a half if you think he couldn't "tree" his "own" coon.

this rule, like much of the government programs, would produce many "unintended consequences".

question- which dogs were "me to-ing" and which was treeing "it's" own coon? your rule could be interpreted to have mine minused FOR NOT CHASING THE OTHERS to the feeder.

Posted by john nannemann on 10-02-2009 01:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by SLICK50
So youre saying that if a dog flies in there and slick trees in say 1 minute. And youre dog or another dog comes into the tree after 5 minutes is should not be minused??????????? lol what a crock

If youre dog doesn't have enough sense to check a tree then it doesn't have any business there in the first place!!!!!!!!!!! Especially taking it more then 5 minutes to come strutting into a slick tree!!!!!!!!! Of course it deserves minus!!!!!!!!!!

Ukc needs to reward the COON TREEING DOG NOT THE ME TOO-ER OR THE SLOW TRACKING DOG.

If it takes youre dog more then 1 minute to cover a treed dog then it only deserves 25 points. That's why ukc rewards the me too-er and pkc rewards to coon treeing dog.

If i had to hunt a dog that covered another dog on a regular basis i would sell everything and quite!!!! That's a guarantee. If my dog even trees with another dog after that dog has been treed then it will be sorry. Theres nothing better then drawing a 4 dog cast and on the first drop seeing all 4 of them split tree and all 4 have a coon. Usually a 4 dog walker cast imagine that.

your ability to BEAT your dog off trying to cover another dog has NOTHING to do with your dog's "independence". and will prove MEANINGLESS in the breeding pen.

there is a large difference in a naturally independent dog and a SCARED dog.

Posted by on 10-02-2009 01:22 PM:

Can someone explain to me how this rule would favor a slick treeing dog?

Posted by SLICK50 on 10-02-2009 01:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john nannemann
your ability to BEAT your dog off trying to cover another dog has NOTHING to do with your dog's "independence". and will prove MEANINGLESS in the breeding pen.

there is a large difference in a naturally independent dog and a SCARED dog.

John no offense but i disagree with almost everything you post. I could care less about the breeding of my hounds. Not at this time anyways. I train them to win hunts at whatever means necessary to get them solid coon dogs. and that's just what they do. I show up to a hunt to win and when i win it's NOT by my dog covering treed dogs.

Please answer Jim's question???? This rule would have nothing to do with a slick treeing dog. NOTHING

Regardless of weather the closed tree had a coon, opossume, slick, or circle tree the dog that arrived after 5 minutes will be minused its strike. How can anyone disagree with that? It only makes sense.

Posted by john nannemann on 10-02-2009 02:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by SLICK50
John no offense but i disagree with almost everything you post. I could care less about the breeding of my hounds. Not at this time anyways. I train them to win hunts at whatever means necessary to get them solid coon dogs. and that's just what they do. I show up to a hunt to win and when i win it's NOT by my dog covering treed dogs.

Please answer Jim's question???? This rule would have nothing to do with a slick treeing dog. NOTHING

Regardless of weather the closed tree had a coon, opossume, slick, or circle tree the dog that arrived after 5 minutes will be minused its strike. How can anyone disagree with that? It only makes sense.

i have already answered jim's question in one actual instance. there may be others.

this much i can tell you, looking for more and more ways to minus out dogs will cause the continuing decline of the local clubs and the attendance thereof. it should then be easier for you to win if you have the only dog there. but that would then be meaningless also.

count it down, but minusing the strike in all cases just makes half sense.

you didn't answer my question as to which dogs were "me to-ing" in the case above. maybe we should have one set of hunts for folks that are looking for traits in animals INTRINSIC to the genetics of that animal for breeding purposes and another set of hunts for folks that just want to train their animal to conform to the rules.

i guess the point i'm trying to make is, MOST of the time the best dog will already win on any given night.

Posted by on 10-02-2009 02:52 PM:

John, anyone can custom tailor a situation to defend anything. I can conjure up a sequence of events that could make every rule in the book look unfair. That is really all you are doing. When it is all said and done, there are those who will defend a dog for getting there 5 MINUTES after the fact and there are the majority who, thank God, will not defend that.

Looking for more ways to get rid of dogs? They would have to do it 4 times!!!!.....assuming 1st strike everytime......to minus out. If a coon was seen in that tree, they would minus out under the current rule. Your example above with your dog and the feeder situation gets your dog minused UNDER THE CURRENT RULE because the coon was seen. Any dog that is struck for 100 and minuses out on any cover rule including the current rule needs to be gone and is in fact scratched under ther rule we have right now if a coon is seen in all four trees.

Posted by GA DAWG on 10-02-2009 06:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Can someone explain to me how this rule would favor a slick treeing dog?

NO..they just dont want their breed minused when they get their arse smoked LOL...

I cant figure out what the crap they are thinking Jim..Your slick treeing dog is gonna get minused both ways..The covering me too dog that has big ears is only going to get strike minus..I cant figure it out...

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Posted by SLICK50 on 10-02-2009 06:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
NO..they just dont want their breed minused when they get their arse smoked LOL...

I cant figure out what the crap they are thinking Jim..Your slick treeing dog is gonna get minused both ways..The covering me too dog that has big ears is only going to get strike minus..I cant figure it out...

I don't think they can figure it out either lol

Posted by GA DAWG on 10-02-2009 06:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by SLICK50
I don't think they can figure it out either lol

I really think its breed related!!!!!!! Same as the countdown was..I know which breed would vote for this and which breeds would whine about it lol.........

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Posted by bluff country on 10-02-2009 09:36 PM:

I think we should do away with strike points period , that way the babbling dog , the honest strike dog , and the silent dog would start off even . Make first tree 125 second 75 third 50 and fourth 25 . Make it a declining tree like * kc has . No circle trees only plus or minus . With 4 handlers looking for 10 minutes apiece that's 40 min . If you looked for 40 min by yourself you would probably find the coon if it was there . Remember these are competition hunts where we are suppose to TREE as many coon in 2 hours as possible .

Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-03-2009 12:41 AM:

I can think of one bad thing about minuse after 5 minutes. It would make the sport go faster in the direction it is allready headed. Say you have a fast run with head up dog looking for air(like a lot of them are) and you have a put your head down and cover your ground dog( like some of them are). Now no matter what kind you prefer there are hunting conditions that both excel at.
Well you let the head up dog run a mile and air one in a tree and he will be there in a few minutes but with no opens till he has ran that mile and got down wind.
The head down dog hits the track 30 yds from the truck and the track romes around down there on the creek banks and bean fields. He isn't going to be there in 5 minutes.
Just shows that no rule is great in all circumstances. I think the thing that people should remember is that we all know what the rules are when we enter our dogs. As long as the rules are the same for all and they actualey go by the rules then I am good with it. The one that bites me this time might help me next.

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Posted by Vic Stoll on 10-03-2009 06:20 PM:

Interesting Post

Neat to see & read all the responses. As has already been mentioned, under the current system a dog is minused on track if it covers after the tree is closed & the coon is seen. I personally have no problem with Jim's proposed change. I would also like to throw out some food for thought. If a dog slick trees, it has basically quit a track as well. The dog gave its best effort, but came up short. When the leaves are off, this is very easy to determine, & a dog will take minus both ways. When the leaves are on, as everyone knows a lot of slicks are circled because..."it could be there". With this proposed change, when the leaves are on the slick treeing dog is not penalized for quitting the track due to the "back door" of circle points. The dog that does the exact same thing (quits a track) & comes in to a closed tree will be minused. Both dogs have quit a track & should be minused, but due to leaves being on, one is penalized & one is not. On the other side of the coin, if the leaves are off the exact opposite is true. The slick treed dog gets minus both ways (as it should), but the dog that quits & comes in to the closed slick tree does not get penalized. Go figure, pros & cons for multiple aspects. Sure makes pleasure hunting a lot easier to figure out! LOL

Posted by Rip on 10-03-2009 06:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
I really think its breed related!!!!!!! Same as the countdown was..I know which breed would vote for this and which breeds would whine about it lol.........

I can promise you it's not breed related.

I am all for a countdown on tree. Nothin I hate worse than to have 3 holsteins come in late and get good tree points out of the deal. Since they usually babble it would help offset that.

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Posted by Todd Miller on 10-03-2009 07:11 PM:

I promise you, I don't think you usually see to many holsteins come in late. Lets see four holsteins just made UKC final 4.

Posted by Rip on 10-03-2009 07:31 PM:

I see it as a common occurance with my dogs. I happen to have legitimate first tree dogs. It don't matter what color they are.

They get beat too though.

But see how silly it sounds.

It has nothing to do with breeds. Matter of fact there are MORE slow Walkers than any other breed because there are more Walkers in general.

But yes, plenty of holsteins have been humbled by the black dogs I have lead, same track struck at the same time and completely shut out on tree on a runnin coon or only have 30 seconds left etc.

I been beat plenty too. The difference is you never heard me when we drew out say "three coondogs and a black dog".

Of course that mouthiness makes it that much more fun when they can't explain how my dog is so far in front of theirs LOL. They just shut up for some reason.

Coondogs are coondogs no matter what the breed, and as a percentage ALL of them have very few real COONDOGS. (no I don't have one, I have a dog that will tree a coon, big difference).

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Posted by Todd Miller on 10-03-2009 07:38 PM:

Rip.
Nicely written.

Posted by Rip on 10-03-2009 07:46 PM:

Thanks, I was just trying to make a point, not build up or bash any breed or dog/dogs.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-03-2009 08:12 PM:

Amen Rip, I get so tired of the whole breed thing. Don't like racist's either though. ( :

Posted by on 10-03-2009 08:41 PM:

You're sure it's not breed related??????

Go back and look at the vote results from the 2006 rule change session. There was a proposal to go to a tree countdown with 125 for 1st tree and 2nd closes after a minute, 3rd closes after two minutes. After 2 minutes till the 5 ends you can only go in for 25. The standard tree point countdown that so many claim to support. The voting was as follows....TWBF&A yes.....everybody else, no! It's not breed related????

Posted by GA DAWG on 10-03-2009 08:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
I can promise you it's not breed related.

I am all for a countdown on tree. Nothin I hate worse than to have 3 holsteins come in late and get good tree points out of the deal. Since they usually babble it would help offset that.

As a whole Rip..As a WHOLE lol.......I bet if the rule was put up for vote..The holsteins would be one of 2 that voted for it!!!

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Posted by Rip on 10-03-2009 09:52 PM:

Actually it was put to a vote and I think the holsteins were the only ones that DID vote for it.

I don't think it had much to do with the caliber of dogs as much as it had to do with "we don't want to be like that other registry."

One thing I have noticed about folks that hunt holsteins, on the whole they would breed to a dog own by an Axe murderer if they thought they could win with it, and the off breed guys are more backward and won't breed to the best thing going cause "ole so and so said X one night, and I don't like em".

I say that as an "off breed" owner. I have just noticed that over the years, it might not be anything big, maybe an arguement over eggs, but the ones that own Black dogs wouldn't breed to a bonafide dominant reproducer cause of something the owner said 15 years ago. It's wierd.

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Posted by on 10-03-2009 11:18 PM:

Rip, your comment about the Walker guys breeding to a dog owned by an Axe Murderer really nails it. Big D is a perfect example. He isn't at all Bellar bred. Russel hates him, won't hunt him and sure as heck won't feed him but he did buy him. Why? Because he knew he could win a World Hunt. And he did!

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