UKC Forums - The truth about cross breeding

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- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- The truth about cross breeding (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=298766)

Posted by TOP on 09-10-2009 02:29 AM:

I could be wrong, but I think the UKC will register treeing curs, which are cross bred dawgs. If so the purebred only stuff don't hold alot of water.

Of course I don't really care one way or the other what they do on the cross bred hounds, but I feel certain that the UKC is already recognizing some cross breed dawgs.

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Posted by john nannemann on 09-10-2009 02:32 AM:

if "us" english folks find us a outstanding black+tan that breeds good into our bitches good we're gonna use him and name him tennessee lead... again...lol

Posted by rance56 on 09-10-2009 03:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by mick mclaughlin
How many Bue dogs would be in that Walker top 24?

They are maybe a few of every other breed combined that would be in the walker top 24.

Should we all just hunt Walkers then?

ok, ill spell it out real clear. you tried to make the point that folks didnt want cross breds because they were scared of the caliber of dogs they are, well the numbers show you have alot more to be worried about with walker dogs than cross breed hounds. so therefor, your point of people not wanting cross bred dogs competing becuase they are scared is completely blown out of the water.

for the record, a dog bred, raised, trained and campaigned in our kennel won the pkc florida state title last year and placed second this year, not really scared of anything, regardless the color. all 4 casts were made up of walker dogs besides her.

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Posted by bumer26 on 09-10-2009 03:43 AM:

Rick,
I have never heard of this dog called Moonslime or the owner and the guy from Missouri you can't even remember. Them must have some real hounds. I will bet that people that hunted with Rat Attack, Sackett, HellBilly, Cabo Wabo and many others can remember the names of the dogs and owners because they were living in reality.

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 09-10-2009 03:56 AM:

lol. with 1000 of walkers dogs out there sounds like somebody
dont know how to breed or wants a pat on the back for letting
old so so get out.

Posted by mick mclaughlin on 09-10-2009 04:07 AM:

Your a brave and obviouslly very intelligent man, Bummer.

Rance, I didn't mean to insult you and I am certainlly not saying that any breed of dogs is better then any other.

I am also well aware that crossbred dogs are not the route for a breeder who wants to breed consistent dogs.

I just do not understand why you don't want to hunt against crossbred dogs?

Please explain?

By the way, i hunted Walkers for twenty years, and I will hunt them again. Blackwater PJ was at my house being hunted for two months when he was young. A dog that is now called Tiny and is now owned by Duke Proulx was trained by me. Thunder Rd. Hot Rod was trained by me and I SS and bred him while he was here. I owned and or hunted 4 different dogs out of Backwater Pearl, dogs that made real coondogs and are part of the reason she is one of the all time reproducers. I didn't make them, they were naturals and i gave them the chance. I could go on and on and about the walker, english, plott and blue dogs dogs that I have owned and have hunted for other people.

What is the point?

I now own two young B& T dogs, basically because I was ready for a change in what I personally owned.

I have always been a person that could recognise a dog for what they did in the woods no matter the breed.

Now tell me what this all has to do with the reason folks are against Crossbred dogs being hunted in UKC hunts?

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Posted by jackbob42 on 09-10-2009 04:29 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by mick mclaughlin

I was hoping to get an answer as to why people do not wish to allow crossbreeds in UKC.

Here is my answer............
Because I don't want more junk/brood females being bred to the hottest stud dogs just to sell a few more puppies. We have enough of that going on already.

And yeah , yeah , I know , you don't think it will be that many more. But , if you ask me , just one more would be one too many!

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Posted by mick mclaughlin on 09-10-2009 04:40 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jackbob42
Here is my answer............
Because I don't want more junk/brood females being bred to the hottest stud dogs just to sell a few more puppies. We have enough of that going on already.

And yeah , yeah , I know , you don't think it will be that many more. But , if you ask me , just one more would be one too many!

OK, thats your opinion and I can respect that, even though I disagree with it.

I have never had enough success with my breedings to feel that I could condemn others.

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Posted by mick mclaughlin on 09-10-2009 04:48 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by bumer26
Rick,
I have never heard of this dog called Moonslime or the owner and the guy from Missouri you can't even remember. Them must have some real hounds. I will bet that people that hunted with Rat Attack, Sackett, HellBilly, Cabo Wabo and many others can remember the names of the dogs and owners because they were living in reality.

Hey Bummer,

i just figured out who you are! Man it's been a long time.

Is envy and hate all you have to hold on to man?

Let it go. Nobody cares. You hate an honest man that has been incrediblly succesfull.

I think I'm going to be getting one of his young dogs again soon, and it's pure walker so if ya ever get tired of being jealous and holding hate, come up and go for a hunt or i'll come down to Arkansas sometime.

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Posted by TJ RAYFIELD on 09-10-2009 03:31 PM:

hannah cain was single reg. as a walker in pkc i didn't send her 3 gen ukc pedigree in therefore she is now on the famous list in crossbreed in pkc.actually a dual grand in ukc.

Posted by wildbill on 09-15-2009 06:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by masterd1976
I no for a fact that the Gings stylish Rattlor is a purebreed walker. Looks like skip was to lazy to send in his papers. Skip your a jerk off!!

if all of these so called purebred walker dogs are so pure why are a lot of them throwing 30-36" tall purebred dogs with heads that fill a 5gallon bucket???????????
something in the family tree besides pure oak i would say,,,
but they have purebreed PAPERS all the way back ,,
so they must be purebred,,, right ,,lol

allowing a crossbred class isnt going to affect the purebred dogs cause we know they have 'pr' purebred papers which makes them true purebreed,,,lmao ....

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Posted by Jon Hadden on 09-15-2009 10:35 PM:

Cross Breed

I am hunting a Cross Breed dog right now and, I like him as good as any dog I have ever hunted.
I don't care if a dog is purple and pink spotted as long as it will tree a coon.

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Posted by trackntreeman on 09-15-2009 11:31 PM:

GRADE CLASS

i think that a grade class should be offered . not every club , but maybe afew clubs could offer this at a hunt once in awhile . the wv state govenors cup hunt offers this . no titles , no point system , just a simple trophy . a little fact , most of the time the high score of the hunt comes from the grade class , i personally dont own a grade dog , but sometimes things happen especially wih puppy pappers it seems . i have a buddy who dosent hunt competetion , and cares nothing about papers , and has one finest 14 month old redtick out there . so maybe this would be a good idea ?

Posted by Jonathan Crump on 09-16-2009 12:00 AM:

I have a 2 yr old dog that was rescued at approx. 5 wks of age. We took him in cared for him and now we hunt him. I am 99.9% sure he is a full English Coonhound because of his markings. I cant get papers so he is just a pleasure hunting dog. When the English Breeders open the books up he WILL participate in the hunt test and when he passes that I know that I have a reg. coondog. We have other full breed dogs but I wouldnt be against having to single reg. ALL COONDOGS ( in there breed class). Atleast if you had to single reg. each one it would slow down some of the JUNK breeding and you would know for sure that the dog with papers can tree a coon. JMO

Posted by honalieh on 09-16-2009 05:46 AM:

The only dogs in the coonhound world that I would even suspect of being PUREBRED would be the old AKC stock Black & Tans.

Anybody want one of those to hunt with?

I remember visiting a big AKC dog show, and seeing a Black & Tan. I had to inquire. The woman told be about the traits and characteristics of the breed, and that they excelled at trailing and treeing raccoon. Sounded good to me. I love dogs that excel at trailing and treeing raccoon.

This woman seemed very nice and was happy to tell me about this great breed. But then, she became indignant, and told me to leave. This came right after I told her that I coonhunted, and would like to hunt with her dogs sometime.

All I did was to offer her the opportunity to show me what she told me about this great breed. LOL.

I'm thinking that maybe ability is more important than purity and breed standards! ABILITY FIRST!! That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!!!

Posted by edf61 on 07-21-2012 01:40 AM:

Mick, read all of your post!!! You say you have hunted for thirty five years and going to say you have only owned a couple? What is this thread about? Sound's to me that you are trying to still something that smell's!!! You contridict your self all through this thread!!JMO

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Posted by Randy Howard on 07-21-2012 02:35 AM:

Re: Crossbreds!!!

quote:
Originally posted by honalieh
I've been hunting crossbreds for 30+ years. They're called English Hounds!!!

Hardtime Speck = Walker Dog.

Beshears Blue Boy II (Junior) = Single Registered English Hound (Grade Dog) X a Walker female.

Boyds Little Joe = Single Registered English Hound (Grade Dog).

There's the so-called big 3 of the English breed.

Daron's Blue Reb (Lumis) = 3/4 Walker (double Johnsons Banjo).

Merks Singing Tapp = 1/2 Walker (Finley River).

Without this crossbred blood, the English breed would be pretty pathetic!!!If the very best foundation stock of the English breed were crossbred, grade, or in Specks case, transferred from another breed, why would we want to eliminate the method that improved the breed the most!!!

How many English breeders would breed to Speck, Little Joe, or Junior if you could today? None purebred.

No breed is exempt from this. If you don't allow single-registration, paper switching/false papers will be more prominent!!! And, you will never know about it!!!

If you don't have first-hand knowledge of a dog and its pedigree, you basically have NO KNOWLEDGE of the dog and its pedigree.

I have to agree with you ,hunting dogs now that go back to some of the same hounds you listed,hunt a single reg. cross bred hound now that would take some deep pockets to purchase, goes back to merchants hounds but this was done 25 yr's ago on a single reg.dog by the name of horse creek Barney who was a ticked up walker hound. i'm not saying it's good practice or bad but has had some good results. JMO

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Posted by Randy Howard on 07-21-2012 02:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john nannemann
if "us" english folks find us a outstanding black+tan that breeds good into our bitches good we're gonna use him and name him tennessee lead... again...lol

I hope you are kidding right

Posted by Oak Ridge on 07-21-2012 04:12 AM:

Let me try to explain it to you a little differently.

You seem to think that a hound is a hound, is a hound. UKC is a PUREBRED registry. Their job is to register dog that meet the breed standards as defined by the BREED ASSOCIATIONS. They have specific rules for the recognition of a "breed".

This is no different than any other REGISTRY. Take the American Quarter Horse for example. I can't breed my Quarter Horse stallion to a Morgan mare...and expect to be able to register it as a quarter horse, take it to a quarter horse show...and compete with it. It has NOTHING to do with the quality of the mixed breed offspring....it has to do with the rules of the registry.

Not unlike going to a PKC hunt and competing with a crossbred dog, I could take my crossbred horse to an open show....and compete in just about any class I want...but I can't go to the registries event and compete.

The key difference is that PKC does not seem to be interested in being a "registry" as much as collecting fee's for registering dogs....and trust me there is a big difference. UKC maintains a HUGE stud book, PKC may be able to give you a three generation pedigree on some dogs, but would be hard pressed to give you a seven generation pedigree on any given dog "registered" with them.

I'm old enough to remember the "good ole days" when clubs would have events, and there was an "open" and "registered" hunt. You could hunt non-registered dogs.....but as registration became the "norm", the open dogs became few and far between.

In reading all of this thread...I think you question has been answered over and over....but you just are not getting the answer you want. I've owned , hunted against, and judged cross bred hounds....there are good ones, and there are sorry ones, just like all of the so called "purebred" hounds.. The one thing that they ALL have in common is that when it comes time to breed them, none of them seem to be really good at reproducing their own likeness....not unlike hybrids of other species....

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Posted by amazingcursouth on 07-21-2012 04:50 AM:

i hunt ukc registered treeing curs, i have one that is a grand pup of rat attack and another that is a grand pup of x jr with some of the best cur dogs (mt curs) ever been in the woods. i hunted walker dogs for 24 yrs and had some good ones. but i have enjoyed hunting these well bred treed dogs as good as any hound i have ever owned. there are many positives to crossing if it is done right and if you have done your home work. i have some treeing curs that are bred better than some hounds out there today

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Posted by stonehill on 07-22-2012 05:35 AM:

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