UKC Forums - Rule Changes?

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-- Rule Changes? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=221902)

Posted by GA DAWG on 08-07-2008 01:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Travis Stirek
Change non working dog from 30 min to 15 min. I'm sick of listening to dogs pant at your feet and leave your lites to go piss on some bush and break the 30,and come right back.Or add dog must be outta sight for five minutes to break the 30.

Change it to 5 min!!!!! Who needs a dog that stands around your feet for 5min???? Its not ready for a hunt if it does!

Posted by John D on 08-07-2008 01:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark A. Hauck
So unless you and your breed Assn wrote up changes or reccomended changes and submitted them to UKC ???Then your not going to see any of these on the table.

The B&T Assoc. asked for written rules change suggestions and got a couple. I don't know exactly how its decided whether the Assoc. will support one or not. I think it happens at Autumn Oaks. I'm just a member, we were asked for suggestions and I gave them mine, so I did my part. That gives me the right to bitch for the next 2 years.

quote:
Originally posted by M.TARLTON
I dont like punishing dogs for striking close coons. If your at a big event and your getting 25 strike and 125 tree every tree. You score 4 coons thats 600+. Another cast strikes after the min and scores on three coons at 225+ each thats 675+ and you lose your dog treed more coons but lost because he struck them before one min.

Yeah, but you're hunting on buckets is why you are striking within the minute. Instead of turning loose 20 yards from the buckets you should have turned loose 1/4 mile and seen whose dogs would find them first. Thats what strike points were intended for. The other cast is hunting on wild coons. So, their 3 coons is a better performance than your 4.

For every 2 casts like this, there are 2 that have 1-2 babblers. They are striking for 100 and nobody is getting minused because thats what usually happens when dogs are struck on a babble. One of those casts treed 4 coons and a babbler got 1st and 2nd on each one and scored 700+ without treeing a coon and beat your 675+ anyway.

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Posted by M.TARLTON on 08-07-2008 01:49 AM:

A 1st and a 2nd will never beat a 2nd and a 1st. Do the math 100+75=175 75+125=200 who wins not the babbler.

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Posted by MikeO on 08-07-2008 01:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
DAWG, he was hunting the Breeders Showcase. That is a huge event that takes place in an area where coons are largely extinct....or atleast you would think so if you hunted there. I hunted that area a total of 4 nights, all four dogs casts, 12 different dogs besides my own. Never looked at a single coon. Not one in four nights of hunting. I seriously doubt I would be a coonhunter if I had to hunt that country every nite!

GUIDES make all the difference sometimes!

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Posted by LARRY TYNES on 08-07-2008 01:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
You must have got pretty lucky and drawed some worthless pups!

i don,t know if it was luck or not, cause the one i had was worthless also. lol

Posted by LARRY TYNES on 08-07-2008 02:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
DAWG, he was hunting the Breeders Showcase. That is a huge event that takes place in an area where coons are largely extinct....or atleast you would think so if you hunted there. I hunted that area a total of 4 nights, all four dogs casts, 12 different dogs besides my own. Never looked at a single coon. Not one in four nights of hunting. I seriously doubt I would be a coonhunter if I had to hunt that country every nite!

you might be right, but don,t have eny trouble treeing enywhere from 2 to 6 on good nights and they are moving. look in p. h. scores not a lot different in eny area. (pkc) that is.

Posted by Mark A. Hauck on 08-07-2008 04:34 AM:

JIM, did not say we did in 06, but if you look at 04 and 02 you will find that we did in great fashion.

The time keeping rule was ours,

the count down was ours

The squalling was ours

and several more, but that came when many felt there was a need for these changes

Guess some feell the rules are in good shape

I did not present any this year because I'm just wanting to get back into hunting and get this political monkey off my back

there are a few things I'd like to see but not to help my style of dog, just to make it more apparent for the BEST dog to win a cast

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Posted by smokey7 on 08-07-2008 05:01 AM:

1. if a dog won't go hunting then scratch the dog and put him in the box. period. 2 minutes and the dog BETTER BE OUT OF SIGHT. PERIOD.

2. no more hunting judges.

3. no more feeder bucket hunting.

Posted by WLDCHINSANEJANE on 08-07-2008 08:37 AM:

Countdown

The countdown is a must. I don't care what breed your hunting, it has to make you sick when a dog covers yours 4 min in on a tree and is awarded 75 instead of 25. Leave the 125 along because a dog that trees first deserves that extra 25.

Babbling, well something needs to be done about it for sure. Especially in the finals of say the WORLD HUNT where you have non hunting judges. If a dog is babbling and the handler waits the minute until he strikes HER he should them be minus a hundred and than warned. Same goes for a regular hunt, vote on and do the same. The problem is people want put the rule into affect. Akc has it master in my opinion on there countdown system.

This is a different ? but say you have a four dog cast and one of the dogs or even two babbles and the judge scratches them on the second offense and its a two to two vote. What happens. Do they go with the judge on the tie breaker or is it deleted. I have always wonder about this. TIm

Posted by Pigeon on 08-07-2008 01:57 PM:

Who cares if the dog dont go hunting? Let them all stand by my feet for 30 minutes. Should be easy pickens.

How many babblers have won the UKC world hunt?

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Posted by smokey7 on 08-07-2008 02:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Pigeon
Who cares if the dog dont go hunting? Let them all stand by my feet for 30 minutes. Should be easy pickens.

How many babblers have won the UKC world hunt?

I know of a dog that'll stand by your feet until the other dog's tree and then run fast as they can and make a bee line for the other dogs and whoop em off that tree quick like. YOUR MINUSED, HE'S PLUSSED.

Posted by Mark A. Hauck on 08-07-2008 02:40 PM:

if a dog is at me feet he/she can't beat me can they LOL but really, I do like the count down, yep it is a small pain for the judge to keep but not that hard, also don't like being leash locked when other dogs are running, and babbling might be more common in some areas than others, have not seen much of it up here in my area but if I do get a loose mouth dog I've got the perfect location to take them - and we'll see if they babbling

Nope to non hunting judges except for the big one, when it was in play never got to hunt at my own club because always guiding and judging other folks, then when I'd go to their club OHHH they did not belong to a club because they wanted to hunt and not join a club and have judging duties !!!!! Nope a good judge who knows the rules beats a fill in non hunting judge who does not know the rules. ANY DAY !!

How about these major big hunts that have say 100-125 Nite Champions ??? Would be nice to see more wins given based on the ##### of Nite Champions. If we have 75 at our Breed Days we get or give out 3 wins, look at Autumn Oaks the sheer number of Nite Champions - should be 5 or more wins given out there !! Just my opinion though

Posted by smokey7 on 08-07-2008 02:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark A. Hauck
if a dog is at me feet he/she can't beat me can they LOL but really, I do like the count down, yep it is a small pain for the judge to keep but not that hard, also don't like being leash locked when other dogs are running, and babbling might be more common in some areas than others, have not seen much of it up here in my area but if I do get a loose mouth dog I've got the perfect location to take them - and we'll see if they babbling

Nope to non hunting judges except for the big one, when it was in play never got to hunt at my own club because always guiding and judging other folks, then when I'd go to their club OHHH they did not belong to a club because they wanted to hunt and not join a club and have judging duties !!!!! Nope a good judge who knows the rules beats a fill in non hunting judge who does not know the rules. ANY DAY !!

How about these major big hunts that have say 100-125 Nite Champions ??? Would be nice to see more wins given based on the ##### of Nite Champions. If we have 75 at our Breed Days we get or give out 3 wins, look at Autumn Oaks the sheer number of Nite Champions - should be 5 or more wins given out there !! Just my opinion though

Haveing a hunting judge is like haveing a beauty contest with the daddy of the ugliest girl out there as the one and only judge.

Posted by on 08-07-2008 03:12 PM:

Well you have just shown us how much you DON'T know about hunting judge rules!

Posted by smokey7 on 08-07-2008 04:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Well you have just shown us how much you DON'T know about hunting judge rules!

what few competition hunts i have ever been a part of, the "hunting judge" was also the guide and was judge, jury, and executioner.

Posted by John D on 08-07-2008 04:23 PM:

He may be the judge and the executioner, but he's not the jury. He's also subject to being overruled by a superior judge.

I've been going to hunts back to when nonhunting judges were required on NtCh and GrNtCh casts. What happened then is you frequently got a judge that didn't know the rules and was easily manipulated.

Having hunting judges is not a perfect system but it is superior to nonhunting judges. For the same reasons, a non hunting MOH is on the way out...only a matter of time.

Posted by smokey7 on 08-07-2008 04:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John D
He may be the judge and the executioner, but he's not the jury. He's also subject to being overruled by a superior judge.

I've been going to hunts back to when nonhunting judges were required on NtCh and GrNtCh casts. What happened then is you frequently got a judge that didn't know the rules and was easily manipulated.

Having hunting judges is not a perfect system but it is superior to nonhunting judges. For the same reasons, a non hunting MOH is on the way out...only a matter of time.

the best way i could describe the setup was much like the way the catholic church is setup. Well relate the Bible to the rulebook and the the hunting judge is the pope. The rest of the cast members are the congregation or peasants, if you will. The nitehunt entry fee is the church dues that you must pay every week. It doesn't matter what you THINK the rulebook says. Matter of fact, it doesn't even matter what the rulebook does in reality say. What matters is what the "pope" or "hunting judge" TELLS YOU the rulebook says. You worship and pray and believe and practice the way the pope or hunting judge tells you to. Theres only one way to GOD and thats through the pope. If you got something to pray to GOD about or a rule to question, you must go through the pope or hunting judge. Theres no point in a cast member or "peasant" even reading the rulebook or Bible to begin with. Our feeble minds couldn't comprehend it anyway. So, just take the beating or scourging the hunting judge or "pope" gives you and simply say.......... "thank you allmighty, may i have another!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

Posted by roughcreek on 08-07-2008 05:18 PM:

why is anybody even talking about a non hunting judge at the club level #'s are down & i could see most clubs trying to find enough quality people to judge, much less enough hunters to put on a desent hunt !!

who cares if a dog dont hunt, if you cant beat a dog standing under your feet, you might as well stay home !! i'll take that dog in my cast every night & be a happy joe !!

you guys need to look at rules that can be realisticly fixed to help the hunts, not some pennieany crap that aint even worth talking about !!

rule 5(b) is most unfair rule in ukc !!

Posted by blueticker on 08-07-2008 05:34 PM:

Lets have the count down but no circled trees. Either you see the coon or it's a minus. Den trees, holes or place of refuge deleted unless coon is seen. You don't need plus points to win the cast. This isn't possible but most folks wanting count down would reconsider if were talking coondog over treedog.

Posted by GA DAWG on 08-07-2008 05:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blueticker
Lets have the count down but no circled trees. Either you see the coon or it's a minus. Den trees, holes or place of refuge deleted unless coon is seen. You don't need plus points to win the cast. This isn't possible but most folks wanting count down would reconsider if were talking coondog over treedog.

That dont bother me in the least...Either plus it or minus it..I'd still vote for a countdown or get me a real deal me-to dog! That babbled lol.....

Posted by Oak Ridge on 08-07-2008 06:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blueticker
Lets have the count down but no circled trees. Either you see the coon or it's a minus. Den trees, holes or place of refuge deleted unless coon is seen. You don't need plus points to win the cast. This isn't possible but most folks wanting count down would reconsider if were talking coondog over treedog.

That's where I think you are wrong my friend.

I have a dog here that is a third strike dog in most casts...and a second strike dog in an "honest" cast. (seems there is always an automatic strike dog in about every cast)....

Now I take third strike honest.....and I get first tree, off to myself. That dog carrying 100 strike points that's babbling off through the countryside hears my dog treed and covers at 2,3 or 4 minutes into my tree. He covers for 75 points.

I get 175 points on this tree...and he also gets 175 points on the tree.....now you tell me, what did that dog to contribute to scoring on that coon? Not a darn thing....but bark through the countryside.....early, often, and usually loud....

Let me take ONE fourth strike in a cast...or let the babbler, cover dog cover another dog...and I'm beat...and so are all the other dogs in the cast about 90% of the time....I've seen it happen... Just this past spring at a walker sectional. Dog won first place registered with quite a high score, and never had a first tree.......No other dogs took minus, but this dog got a "piece" of every coon treed on a three dog cast......

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Posted by Maniac on 08-07-2008 07:36 PM:

UKC DOES NEED A COUNT DOWN ON THERE TREE!!!!

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Posted by blueticker on 08-07-2008 08:02 PM:

If a hound doesn't get first tree does that mean he isn't much of a coon dog??

The coon dog in the cast strikes in for first strike works the track to the tree where the coon is and the me to track dog that would have already made several trees alone grabs the tree while the coon dog is making sure the coon is there. The coondog is beat. You can write it up anyway you want to help the type of hounds you normally hunt. I normally make more than one tree alone in a hunt and the count down would favor my dog. I still believe a balanced strike, track and treedog is where hound breeding should be headed.

Posted by M.TARLTON on 08-07-2008 08:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blueticker
If a hound doesn't get first tree does that mean he isn't much of a coon dog??

The coon dog in the cast strikes in for first strike works the track to the tree where the coon is and the me to track dog that would have already made several trees alone grabs the tree while the coon dog is making sure the coon is there. The coondog is beat. You can write it up anyway you want to help the type of hounds you normally hunt. I normally make more than one tree alone in a hunt and the count down would favor my dog. I still believe a balanced strike, track and treedog is where hound breeding should be headed.

I agree if theres a dog in the cast that isnt much of a dog that checks to make sure hes there the better dog will lose when the tree slammin me to strike dog wins. The only way the real coondog wins if the no tree checking dog messes up.

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Posted by Travis Stirek on 08-08-2008 12:42 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by roughcreek

who cares if a dog dont hunt, if you cant beat a dog standing under your feet, you might as well stay home !! i'll take that dog in my cast every night & be a happy joe !!

I've beat plenty of them and my reasoning has nothing to do with that but it gets D@^N old trying to listen for your dog while somebodies dog is standing around panting and not doing what a dog that should be in a nite hunt should be doing.If they are looking for my dog to be a pup trainer they should stay home or head for the pickup.I have many times withdrawn my young dog that I thought was ready that wasn't,1) out of courtisy and 2) out of embarassment.

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