UKC Forums - Best English Track Dogs

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-- Best English Track Dogs (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=169722)

Posted by John Carroll on 10-01-2007 02:27 PM:

I had a sister to Leroy Penny's Dancin' Disco that could fly. She could take a track other dogs couldn't open on and tree it like it was a good track.

I called her Ginger. Had she lived longer, I would likely be an English man instead of a Blueticker.

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Posted by larrypoe on 10-01-2007 02:36 PM:

Re: Apprarently

quote:
Originally posted by EnglishDogs
there is alot all of us could learn by studying up. Wonder who will tell the truth about this kinda stuff?? Speck at least he didnt have to be lied about. Everyone knew what he was. Lets all start breding the best to the best. Not by message board but by hunting them. Maybe then we will catch up with the walkers. I know you all are gonna jump on me for this one but lets face the facts. The walker men bred the best to the best. The English men its always been about "what line" u hunt. We will always be beat in the big hunts as long as this goes on. Ive found something real intersting about english people lately. They are real concerned with COLOR. Isnt that something.??? Isnt that the thing with English?? Color shouldnt matter. We have more lee way than than any other breed when it comes to color. Butttttt but it holds us back. Until we all got over this "we breed to certain lines" we will always be beat by the walker man. Thats a fact. Lets bring into this thread the best trackin walker dogs and where do we stand as English men? Im English thru and thru but honestly where do we stand?? How long ago has an English dog won the world hunt?? And I dont wanna see this crap of the walkers have more of a chance cuz there is more of em. Thats a fact. We all know this . So it should make it all the sweeter when we do win. But until the best are bred to the best it will never happne and we will keep on goin on lookin like a bunch of buffons. Lets hunt em and lets start breeding the great females in our breed to the great reproducing males. Not by blooodlines but by actual proven reproducing males. Where will this breed go from there?? Color................what a load of crap.

Where to start.........for one I agree with you about color. I have always said the BIGGEST tool the founders of this breed gave us was the ability to worry about ability WITHOUT having to worry what color hide it came in. It is a shame that more breeders, and buyers for that matter, cant look past the hide a dog is wrapped in. Redticks sell all day long, Bluetick English still do well, anything other than that and its hit and miss. Always has been, probably always will be. Do I agree with it, nope not for a minute. Its still a fact though.

Where do the best English bloodlines stack agianst walkers when it comes to tracking ability? They will hang with the best of them, and more times than not, they will excede them. Lately I have seen alot of the tracking ability sacrificed for tree though. I still believe its because of where most of the big hunts are held. It takes a lightning quick tree dog to win there, and tracking ability doesnt even come in play most of the time.

There was a time not long ago when 3 sires surfaced at relativly the same time. They marked this breed forever by breeding daughers of one to the other. Those sires were Boyds Little Joe, Hardtime Speck, and Beshears Blue Boy II (Junior).

As I look around, I see more good, young, capable sires around right now than I ever have in the past. Ever. Are there any Joe, Speck, or Juniors in there? I honestly think there could be. Look at St Nick, Id give my eye teeth to be able to breed 2 of these females I have here to him the next time they come in heat. I'll have to settle for one of his sons though, probably half of those good young ones are sired by him.

Walkers more recently had Lipper, Stylish dogs, and Tar Rattler. Most of that breed today can be traced to those 3 lines or dogs. I also believe that one thing that sets walkers apart is that they want to breed for "A" winner, and some could care less how many they have to go through to get it. If 1 pup in a litter is outstanding and the rest are culls, they will shoot the rest and breed the outstanding one.

I hope we never come to that.

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Posted by hellcat on 10-01-2007 03:37 PM:

Walker Track Dogs ?

I had a well known Walker breeder tell me that the difference between English breeders and Walker breeders when it comes
to Tacking Ability was this.
Walker breeders have understood for a long time that
"The most important parts of a track, Is the First Ten feet and the Last Ten feet"
I have thought about that statement for several years. If the score card is the sole judge I guess this Walker man was right.
If the 22 rifle is the judge maybe Not. I do think there is a difference between a Great track dog for a score card and a Great track dog for Coon hunting.
Jess

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Posted by COONDOG on 10-01-2007 04:10 PM:

English dogs, to answer your question about the last world Champion caliber of english dogs. Lates 70's through the mid 80's.

1979- Speck ACHA
1982- Sargent's Blue ACHA reserve world ch.,1987JimDandy reserve world ch,1988 UKC world ch english, 1988 Jim Dandy world ch. of champions,1988 ACHA world ch english 1988 PKC world ch english. (should have one but the handler did not tree him at the end and drove away in a new truck)

1982-LumisPCA reserve world ch, 1987 Jim Dandy world ch.

1986- Buffalo Creek Patch UCHA and ACHA world champion
All but speck owned by the same man. These are the dogs that I breed on. The last real and consistent winners of the breed.

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Posted by C. Beyer on 10-01-2007 04:44 PM:

1987 UCHA World Champion Pinkerman's SPORT

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Posted by larrypoe on 10-01-2007 05:04 PM:

I think the last one to win it all was Big River Jesse. Not sure of the year........mid 90's.

Then there was Wilcox Thunder Ringo. Placed in the top 20 of the UKC world hunt, and final 4 of the ACHA world hunt the same year.

Countless others who have been in the top 20, to the final 4. Several who have done it more than once.

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Posted by T Felderman on 10-01-2007 05:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by COONDOG
English dogs, to answer your question about the last world Champion caliber of english dogs. Lates 70's through the mid 80's.

1979- Speck ACHA
1982- Sargent's Blue ACHA reserve world ch.,1987JimDandy reserve world ch,1988 UKC world ch english, 1988 Jim Dandy world ch. of champions,1988 ACHA world ch english 1988 PKC world ch english. (should have one but the handler did not tree him at the end and drove away in a new truck)

1982-LumisPCA reserve world ch, 1987 Jim Dandy world ch.

1986- Buffalo Creek Patch UCHA and ACHA world champion
All but speck owned by the same man. These are the dogs that I breed on. The last real and consistent winners of the breed.

The Lumis x Buffalo Creek Patch cross produced the best English dogs I've ever seen.

Posted by Jeremy Long on 10-01-2007 06:15 PM:

As far as consistency - Mainstreet Max? Go back and look at pup of the month for the entire last year. Look at last years Autumn Oaks. Thats world class.

Wilcox Thunder Tae Bo has spent the last 3 years in the UKC world finals.

There are several other too as Larry points out but I think the breed is doing just fine, just always looking to improve.

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Posted by redtickhunterDG on 10-01-2007 11:24 PM:

I Think what RJ is saying is not the world champ English but the World Champ coondog. I know what you are saying about color and I am just as guilty if it is not Red or Blue ticked than I dont look at it as far as English but at the same time it never made sense to me that if you breed this X breed to this Y breed you get a english please lets give some theese guys that spent many years staying within a family of dogs for creating a breed and not a F1 Hybrid Cross not that this bad but that is like saying that a redbone dog is a walker in book. Alright start slamming me for this comment.

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Posted by Razoo97 on 10-03-2007 03:37 AM:

English

The English bred about color, that's a first. I have never heard that. If there is an English breeder, breding for color, then they should be breeding black n tans, or redbones.

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Posted by steve pickett on 10-03-2007 03:53 AM:

COLOR

WELL IT IS MY OPENION YOU SHOULD BREED TO A HOUND THAT AT LEAST LOOKS LIKE A ENGLISH NOT A WALKER THERE ARE TOO MANY GOOD DOGS REDTICKED OR BLUETICKED THAT HAVE A LOT OF ABILITY TO AND CAN REPRODUCE -THAN BREED TO A WALKER LOOKING DOG. AND I KNOW FOR A FACT IT IS HARDER TO SELL A ENGLISH PUP THAT LOOKS LIKE A WALKER.YES YOU CAN SELL THEM BUT PROBABLY NOT THE SAME PRICE AS THE TICKED PUPS.

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Posted by COONDOG on 10-03-2007 05:21 AM:

You would be surprised at the amount of people who ask if I have any black and white pups. They first ask for one that looks like Grit, then ask for black and white. I have never had anyone call and ask if I have any redticks. I think a lot has to do with the line of dog. Those that know my line of dog just knows redticks are rare, so they dont ask. My Grit dog has thrown 2 true redticks in nearly 60 pups. Most are tri-colored, red and white or black and white.

Posted by honalieh on 10-03-2007 06:41 AM:

Colors

If we look at the great influences on the English breed, we see the big three, Boyd's Little Joe (Grade Bluetick), Hardtime Speck (ticked up Walker), and Beshear's Blue Boy II (Bluetick---with Walker ancestry).

Next, we see Daron's Blue Reb(Lumis) (Bluetick--with a lot of Johnson's Banjo (Walker) breeding, and Sargent's Blue (Bluetick, with Joe and Banjo blood behind him).

In my mind, that's the top five of the English breed! Not a Redtick in the bunch! There is a Redtick that deserves an honorable mention behind these top 5, Beech River Sputnik!!!

The top English dogs of today trace back to Walker dogs or grade dogs. Just try to trace them back without the influence of the Walker/Blue influence of the "top 5" I've mentioned above!!! The Tapp dogs deserve mention, but they were crossed on Joe or Speck to add power!!!

Posted by English Rule on 10-03-2007 07:29 AM:

Shinbone Ridge Dogs

Have the mouth, track (fast track drivers), and tree power to please the hard to please. Great looks to boot.

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Posted by nkisamo1 on 10-03-2007 01:17 PM:

Re: TY

quote:
Originally posted by EnglishDogs
Ronnie for pointing that fact out.

Also I really got to disagree with whats been said about the Rocky dogs. They are first and foremost a tree dog. But maybe I dont know much about them.

I agree! What is odd is they say the dog lacks on tree but stays there as long as it takes for you to get there. To me that is a tree dog. I could careless if a dog barks 15t imes a minute or 100. A solid tree dog is one that never leaves a tree until you pull him off. He must give voice enough for you to find him.

Posted by COONDOG on 10-03-2007 02:30 PM:

Where does the Banjo blood come from in Blue?

----------Gr.Nt.Ch Boone Creek Buck
--------gr.nt.ch. Meek's John
----------Carmen's Lady
------True Kash
----------Gr.Nt.Ch. Bate's Blue Kash
--------nt.ch. putthoff's Polly
----------Nt.Ch. Hall's Buckeye Kelly Sue
----ch.gr.nt.ch. Sargent's Blue
----------Rock
--------ch.gr.nt.ch. Boyd's Little Joe
----------Neil
------carroll's boyd lit. bell
----------Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. Hickory Hollow Hambone
--------coonshine sue
----------Gr.Nt.Ch.Ch. Hickory Hollow Apache Reba

Would it be from Boone Creek Buck?

Posted by C. Beyer on 10-03-2007 02:34 PM:

hey dave I had a guy email me about Lumis blood pups. I think he was lookin for you. Unless Im supposed to be some sorta dealer for you.lol

I better get a comission..HAHA

Posted by COONDOG on 10-03-2007 04:05 PM:

Give him my number or e-mail if you would. Thanx

Posted by C. Beyer on 10-03-2007 09:18 PM:

I did I gave him Both

Posted by COONDOG on 10-03-2007 10:53 PM:

Thanx

Posted by masterd1976 on 10-03-2007 11:13 PM:

I like the english that looks like a walker.

Posted by steve pickett on 10-04-2007 03:27 AM:

i know everyone can make

his or her choices,my self if i wanted a walker looking hound i would buy a walker,there are a lot of good walkers out there but i perfer to hunt an english hound so i want it to be a ticked hound,talk to some of these walker people they don't want them to be ticked they want them to be tick free try-colored ,a lot of walker people would have culled hardtime speck in there breeding program because he was heavy ticked.

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Posted by honalieh on 10-04-2007 03:29 AM:

COONDOG

Yes, the Banjo behind Meeks John came where you suspect.

And Lumis had Banjo on top and bottom. Behind Merchant's Bounce, and behind Kirk's Blue Boy ( a House's Chief dog).

Posted by C. Beyer on 10-04-2007 03:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by COONDOG
Thanx

Like I said, Commission????

LOL

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